Israel Bitcoin Conference July 28-29, 2014

[DonDev]

Palestinians gave a little land to the jews back in the day to live on and those unthankful slaves took over more than half the country.

We bought the land. We paid top dollar for worthless swamps, and worked hard to drain them and make them livable. The Arabs were envious of our success, much like a small child who only wants a toy when he sees another one playing with it. They attacked unprovoked, and we retaliated, repeating ad infinitum.

killing 300-400 palestinians before breakfast everyday.

The only reason there are less Israeli civilian casualties than Palestinian, is that Israel protects its civilians with guidance and shelters, and Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

If hamas is so bad how come they won the elections with a clear majority? Please answer this if you claim they are against there own state and civilians.

[1715653011]

1715653011

[Hippie Tech]

Who knows israel will be wiped off the map before the next conference as thats what they deserve. Palestinians gave a little land to the jews back in the day to live on and those unthankful slaves took over more than half the country. If hitler was alive the world of been such a better place, loved what he did to these jokers back in the day.

You are a dis-service to the anti zionist/fascist movement and an embarrassment to humanity.

Shitler was brought to power by the zionists ! DUMBASS !

http://www.corbettreport.com/who-funded-hitler-questions-for-corbett-008/

http://www.maebrussell.com/About%20Mae%20Brussell/Mind%20of%20Adolf%20Hitler.html

edit

Shitler and the central banks --> EDIT  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWcTAOjkEik

Oh shut up you dumbass. You have no clue what your talking about and stop linking these fake links if you sit on the internet to gather facts I feel sorry for you.

And those who are saying what Hitler did was against humanity well I agree on that but how about israelis torturing muslims like the holocaust https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94PbUEPF7ro

There are thousands of videos I can show of israelis torturing palestinians far worse than what hitler did and you are telling me to calm down. Hell no  Hitler did the right thing with these retards who are killing 300-400 palestinians before breakfast everyday.

WARNING ! MOST ZIONISTS ARE NOT JEWISH ! Most zionist/fascists are in fact, christian rednecks hell bent on self fullfilling their story board/ bible prophecies.

Do you wish to wipe them off the map aswell ?

God's people MY ASS !

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Palestinians gave a little land to the jews back in the day to live on and those unthankful slaves took over more than half the country.

We bought the land. We paid top dollar for worthless swamps, and worked hard to drain them and make them livable. The Arabs were envious of our success, much like a small child who only wants a toy when he sees another one playing with it. They attacked unprovoked, and we retaliated, repeating ad infinitum.

killing 300-400 palestinians before breakfast everyday.

The only reason there are less Israeli civilian casualties than Palestinian, is that Israel protects its civilians with guidance and shelters, and Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

If hamas is so bad how come they won the elections with a clear majority? Please answer this if you claim they are against there own state and civilians.

I can only guess why they do what they do, or why the people condone them. But power-hungry leaders swaying their population is not unheard of.

[farlack]

Palestinians gave a little land to the jews back in the day to live on and those unthankful slaves took over more than half the country.

We bought the land. We paid top dollar for worthless swamps, and worked hard to drain them and make them livable. The Arabs were envious of our success, much like a small child who only wants a toy when he sees another one playing with it. They attacked unprovoked, and we retaliated, repeating ad infinitum.

killing 300-400 palestinians before breakfast everyday.

The only reason there are less Israeli civilian casualties than Palestinian, is that Israel protects its civilians with guidance and shelters, and Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

If hamas is so bad how come they won the elections with a clear majority? Please answer this if you claim they are against there own state and civilians.

Probably the same reason when countries ran by dictators, they still have elections every year, and win.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

The hate is this room is lovely. The fear smell delicious. Perhaps you can sell those tortured souls for some shiny bitcoins?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703002.msg7947296#msg7947296

Thanks for the pointer, and kudos for using colored coins, but I think I'll hold on to my soul for the time being.

[gjgjg]

Palestinians gave a little land to the jews back in the day to live on and those unthankful slaves took over more than half the country.

We bought the land. We paid top dollar for worthless swamps, and worked hard to drain them and make them livable. The Arabs were envious of our success, much like a small child who only wants a toy when he sees another one playing with it. They attacked unprovoked, and we retaliated, repeating ad infinitum.

killing 300-400 palestinians before breakfast everyday.

The only reason there are less Israeli civilian casualties than Palestinian, is that Israel protects its civilians with guidance and shelters, and Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

"We bought the land. "

Some land was bought, but certainly not all of it. Even the parts that were purchased legitimately have some contentious aspects to it (). Most (if not all) purchases took place before the large scale post WW2 divisions of the land (remember the area was part of British colony at this stage NOT Arab controlled).
Most of the talking points around the land these days are due to Israel illegally taking and settling on more and more new land and not adhering to the legal and intl recognised 1967 borders.
I'm sure there were plenty of perfectly legit purchases of land from Arabs and Ottomans etc back in the pre WW2 days but to suggest that all land that was Palestine that Israel now holds is legitimately owned because of simple land purchases is really pushing it.
This is a really oversimplified reply to a hugely complex issue, but if you browse wikipedia (like these pages i found in 5 seconds), its a good starting point to see how complex the issue is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Zionism_and_the_British_mandate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/24/israel-borders-indefensible-netanyahu-aipac
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.589343).
Also I know that there were plenty of calls from Palestinian sides at various times to not accept even the '67 borders. But usually by the extremists etc who just want Israel gone - who have various levels of support but overall are the minority (no more than the amount of extreemists in Israel/USA who have equally extreme views for example).

Disclaimer: Just to note that I fully support the right of Israel to exist and live in peace etc but I also think Palestinians deserve the same; no more or less (equality is the path to peace). I grew up in UK/Ireland during the 'IRA terrorist years' and there are many parallels. I dont think digging up these old arguments of who has the right to this land and that land serves any purpose anymore because that part of the world has gone through a lot of changes in the last 100+ years alone so its become pointless. There were plenty of Jews there before Israel existed, it is their home and rightly so - equally true for Palestinians IMHO (equality is the path to peace). My feeling is that the best hope for peace is for Israel to move back to the '67 borders, to leave Palestinian territories alone and relinquish any controls over it and let UN/Intl bodies govern Palestine until it can get rid of Hamas and those types and install a more moderate government. Both sides will accept the 67 borders, I think, and I doubt there are many people in Israel that would like their state to take a break from occupying West bank and Gaza + have some peace, rather than continue to expand the settlements just to take it all, no?

"The only reason there are less Israeli civilian casualties than Palestinian, is that Israel protects its civilians with guidance and shelters, and Hamas uses civilians as human shields."
Well, in that case I guess you believe that Palestinian militants have the same level of weaponry as Israel in order to cause a proportionate amount of damage and casualties (i.e. it just so happens that Israel has an Iron Dome and Hamas does not)? How many airfighters, helicopters, tanks, submarines, nukes does Palestinians have? Even skipping that - how many Hamas rockets have explosive/shrapnel/chemical capabilities (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/12939-israel-uses-illegal-weapons-in-gaza) *cough illegal weaponry*?
When Hamas entered Israel that ONE time recently through a tunnel, did they manage to cause any civilian casualties before getting killed?
If HAmas could kill more Israelis, I'm sure they would, but they arent able to - Israel is one of the largest and strongest armies in the world and quite easily defends itself against Hamas - probably more easily in this conflict than any other - because Hamas has hardly any modern military equipment. Saying that the ONLY reason Hamas rockets are not causing more casualties is because of the Iron dome is giving Hama's weaponry and capability way too much credit.

Maybe your saying more Palestinians die because Israel doesnt use human shields and Hamas does? Most people know Israel will strike at buildings and people it deems to be targets irregardless of their civilian purpose/status  (report posted recently: http://blogs.channel4.com/miller-on-foreign-affairs/gazas-humanitarian-disaster-trapped-gaza/1148 http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/gazas-alshifa-hospital/24224 also UN facilities hit: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/16/world/middleeast/16mideast.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0).
If Hamas are doing it to try to deter Israel strikes, its not working. If they are doing it to get propaganda material they are pretty desperate - and in the end, Gaza is a densely populated area so large scale attacks are going to cause large scale civilian casualties (700+ dead today, about 75% civilian according to UN) and if one is really concerned about saving innocent bystanders then one doesnt shoot at hospitals anyway to save oneself and endanger many others at the same time - EVEN IF it was the intent of the bad guy in the first place to use human shields and it is endangering oneself. If Israel knows HAmas will use innocents as shields, then Israel should, IMHO, try to find another solution (in this case ONLY by sending in ground troops to take out rockets and fighters with precision, not dropping massive bombs in residential areas). Pretty normal moral standard, really.
Dont get me wrong, Hamas shouold not be doing this, its illegal and really disgusting. But they are doing it, so what should Israel (assuming it is the moral superior) do differently then? Just continue anyway with bombing...?

In the end there are some reports of Israel committing human shield crimes... so it might not be black and white, as usual.
http://rt.com/news/israel-torture-palestinian-children-004/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html
If I get more time at some point ill post more / better info. but its out there if you look. Assume neither side is innocent and keep seeking the info.

And I'm not taking sides, even though to a proIsrali it must seem so (see last link at bottom). I deeply condone the human rights violations committed on both sides, as does any decent person. I believe equality of treatment and equality of all human rights is the only way to peace, its just that one side has almost all the support and the might of the biggest superpower in history, which means media + economic + military + political support... Palestinians have a tiny fraction of this and it shows.

OK, I'm done posting about this I'm getting tired and run out of time and so im sure no one is even reading it any more, so ill sign off on this (hopefully forever now) - the info is out there people. Do not believe me or anyone else, find it out for yourself. Assume everyone has a bias and cast a wide net when gathering info to form an opinion. No one is telling the full truth or knows everything about what is happening or what has happened. Just keep seeking info from everywhere and think things through to a logical conclusion or as close as one can. I'm certainly learning more every day and I've been following this horrible topic for decades, but as bad as it seems it is a lot better every year in terms of people getting educated and improved media openness.
Sorry for all the long posts in this thread and others, but it deserves more than flipquips. Equality = peace.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48330#.U9DDqPmSxUo

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Palestinians gave a little land to the jews back in the day to live on and those unthankful slaves took over more than half the country.

We bought the land. We paid top dollar for worthless swamps, and worked hard to drain them and make them livable. The Arabs were envious of our success, much like a small child who only wants a toy when he sees another one playing with it. They attacked unprovoked, and we retaliated, repeating ad infinitum.

killing 300-400 palestinians before breakfast everyday.

The only reason there are less Israeli civilian casualties than Palestinian, is that Israel protects its civilians with guidance and shelters, and Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

"We bought the land. "

Some land was bought, but certainly not all of it. Even the parts that were purchased legitimately have some contentious aspects to it (). Most (if not all) purchases took place before the large scale post WW2 divisions of the land (remember the area was part of British colony at this stage NOT Arab controlled).
Most of the talking points around the land these days are due to Israel illegally taking and settling on more and more new land and not adhering to the legal and intl recognised 1967 borders.
I'm sure there were plenty of perfectly legit purchases of land from Arabs and Ottomans etc back in the pre WW2 days but to suggest that all land that was Palestine that Israel now holds is legitimately owned because of simple land purchases is really pushing it.
This is a really oversimplified reply to a hugely complex issue, but if you browse wikipedia (like these pages i found in 5 seconds), its a good starting point to see how complex the issue is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Zionism_and_the_British_mandate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/24/israel-borders-indefensible-netanyahu-aipac
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.589343).
Also I know that there were plenty of calls from Palestinian sides at various times to not accept even the '67 borders. But usually by the extremists etc who just want Israel gone - who have various levels of support but overall are the minority (no more than the amount of extreemists in Israel/USA who have equally extreme views for example).

Disclaimer: Just to note that I fully support the right of Israel to exist and live in peace etc but I also think Palestinians deserve the same; no more or less (equality is the path to peace). I grew up in UK/Ireland during the 'IRA terrorist years' and there are many parallels. I dont think digging up these old arguments of who has the right to this land and that land serves any purpose anymore because that part of the world has gone through a lot of changes in the last 100+ years alone so its become pointless. There were plenty of Jews there before Israel existed, it is their home and rightly so - equally true for Palestinians IMHO (equality is the path to peace). My feeling is that the best hope for peace is for Israel to move back to the '67 borders, to leave Palestinian territories alone and relinquish any controls over it and let UN/Intl bodies govern Palestine until it can get rid of Hamas and those types and install a more moderate government. Both sides will accept the 67 borders, I think, and I doubt there are many people in Israel that would like their state to take a break from occupying West bank and Gaza + have some peace, rather than continue to expand the settlements just to take it all, no?

"The only reason there are less Israeli civilian casualties than Palestinian, is that Israel protects its civilians with guidance and shelters, and Hamas uses civilians as human shields."
Well, in that case I guess you believe that Palestinian militants have the same level of weaponry as Israel in order to cause a proportionate amount of damage and casualties (i.e. it just so happens that Israel has an Iron Dome and Hamas does not)? How many airfighters, helicopters, tanks, submarines, nukes does Palestinians have? Even skipping that - how many Hamas rockets have explosive/shrapnel/chemical capabilities (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/12939-israel-uses-illegal-weapons-in-gaza) *cough illegal weaponry*?
When Hamas entered Israel that ONE time recently through a tunnel, did they manage to cause any civilian casualties before getting killed?
If HAmas could kill more Israelis, I'm sure they would, but they arent able to - Israel is one of the largest and strongest armies in the world and quite easily defends itself against Hamas - probably more easily in this conflict than any other - because Hamas has hardly any modern military equipment. Saying that the ONLY reason Hamas rockets are not causing more casualties is because of the Iron dome is giving Hama's weaponry and capability way too much credit.

Maybe your saying more Palestinians die because Israel doesnt use human shields and Hamas does? Most people know Israel will strike at buildings and people it deems to be targets irregardless of their civilian purpose/status  (report posted recently: http://blogs.channel4.com/miller-on-foreign-affairs/gazas-humanitarian-disaster-trapped-gaza/1148 http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/gazas-alshifa-hospital/24224 also UN facilities hit: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/16/world/middleeast/16mideast.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0).
If Hamas are doing it to try to deter Israel strikes, its not working. If they are doing it to get propaganda material they are pretty desperate - and in the end, Gaza is a densely populated area so large scale attacks are going to cause large scale civilian casualties (700+ dead today, about 75% civilian according to UN) and if one is really concerned about saving innocent bystanders then one doesnt shoot at hospitals anyway to save oneself and endanger many others at the same time - EVEN IF it was the intent of the bad guy in the first place to use human shields and it is endangering oneself. If Israel knows HAmas will use innocents as shields, then Israel should, IMHO, try to find another solution (in this case ONLY by sending in ground troops to take out rockets and fighters with precision, not dropping massive bombs in residential areas). Pretty normal moral standard, really.
Dont get me wrong, Hamas shouold not be doing this, its illegal and really disgusting. But they are doing it, so what should Israel (assuming it is the moral superior) do differently then? Just continue anyway with bombing...?

In the end there are some reports of Israel committing human shield crimes... so it might not be black and white, as usual.
http://rt.com/news/israel-torture-palestinian-children-004/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html
If I get more time at some point ill post more / better info. but its out there if you look. Assume neither side is innocent and keep seeking the info.

And I'm not taking sides, even though to a proIsrali it must seem so (see last link at bottom). I deeply condone the human rights violations committed on both sides, as does any decent person. I believe equality of treatment and equality of all human rights is the only way to peace, its just that one side has almost all the support and the might of the biggest superpower in history, which means media + economic + military + political support... Palestinians have a tiny fraction of this and it shows.

OK, I'm done posting about this I'm getting tired and run out of time and so im sure no one is even reading it any more, so ill sign off on this (hopefully forever now) - the info is out there people. Do not believe me or anyone else, find it out for yourself. Assume everyone has a bias and cast a wide net when gathering info to form an opinion. No one is telling the full truth or knows everything about what is happening or what has happened. Just keep seeking info from everywhere and think things through to a logical conclusion or as close as one can. I'm certainly learning more every day and I've been following this horrible topic for decades, but as bad as it seems it is a lot better every year in terms of people getting educated and improved media openness.
Sorry for all the long posts in this thread and others, but it deserves more than flipquips. Equality = peace.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48330#.U9DDqPmSxUo

As anyone who has read the discussion in my vanity thread knows, I have no interest in politics or foreign affairs. I don't watch the news and while obviously I hear about the important stuff from my environment, I barely paid heed to the current situation in Israel before it started affecting my conference. Because of this I do not know, or care to learn or discuss, all the details of this issue which is, as you correctly state, extremely complicated. I also don't really treat the haters here very seriously, so I was satisfied with providing simplistic answers that explain the key counterpoints to the questions raised here.

Despite the length of your post and despite my general disinterest, I did read it fully because you have clearly made an effort to explore the subject in depth.

I won't address all of your points, I'll just say that Israel is indeed the big guy, and that I think it shows the restraint this position mandates. This point is carried across by this caricature by my favorite cartoonist from childhood. Israel's government and military - both the official policies and the individuals within it - are not saints, but they are making a great effort to maintain moral standards in impossible situations.

I deeply condone the human rights violations committed on both sides

Surely you mean "condemn". The meaning is obvious here but you want to be careful with typos that reverse the meaning.

[gjgjg]

Palestinians gave a little land to the jews back in the day to live on and those unthankful slaves took over more than half the country.

We bought the land. We paid top dollar for worthless swamps, and worked hard to drain them and make them livable. The Arabs were envious of our success, much like a small child who only wants a toy when he sees another one playing with it. They attacked unprovoked, and we retaliated, repeating ad infinitum.

killing 300-400 palestinians before breakfast everyday.

The only reason there are less Israeli civilian casualties than Palestinian, is that Israel protects its civilians with guidance and shelters, and Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

"We bought the land. "

Some land was bought, but certainly not all of it. Even the parts that were purchased legitimately have some contentious aspects to it (). Most (if not all) purchases took place before the large scale post WW2 divisions of the land (remember the area was part of British colony at this stage NOT Arab controlled).
Most of the talking points around the land these days are due to Israel illegally taking and settling on more and more new land and not adhering to the legal and intl recognised 1967 borders.
I'm sure there were plenty of perfectly legit purchases of land from Arabs and Ottomans etc back in the pre WW2 days but to suggest that all land that was Palestine that Israel now holds is legitimately owned because of simple land purchases is really pushing it.
This is a really oversimplified reply to a hugely complex issue, but if you browse wikipedia (like these pages i found in 5 seconds), its a good starting point to see how complex the issue is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Zionism_and_the_British_mandate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/24/israel-borders-indefensible-netanyahu-aipac
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.589343).
Also I know that there were plenty of calls from Palestinian sides at various times to not accept even the '67 borders. But usually by the extremists etc who just want Israel gone - who have various levels of support but overall are the minority (no more than the amount of extreemists in Israel/USA who have equally extreme views for example).

Disclaimer: Just to note that I fully support the right of Israel to exist and live in peace etc but I also think Palestinians deserve the same; no more or less (equality is the path to peace). I grew up in UK/Ireland during the 'IRA terrorist years' and there are many parallels. I dont think digging up these old arguments of who has the right to this land and that land serves any purpose anymore because that part of the world has gone through a lot of changes in the last 100+ years alone so its become pointless. There were plenty of Jews there before Israel existed, it is their home and rightly so - equally true for Palestinians IMHO (equality is the path to peace). My feeling is that the best hope for peace is for Israel to move back to the '67 borders, to leave Palestinian territories alone and relinquish any controls over it and let UN/Intl bodies govern Palestine until it can get rid of Hamas and those types and install a more moderate government. Both sides will accept the 67 borders, I think, and I doubt there are many people in Israel that would like their state to take a break from occupying West bank and Gaza + have some peace, rather than continue to expand the settlements just to take it all, no?

"The only reason there are less Israeli civilian casualties than Palestinian, is that Israel protects its civilians with guidance and shelters, and Hamas uses civilians as human shields."
Well, in that case I guess you believe that Palestinian militants have the same level of weaponry as Israel in order to cause a proportionate amount of damage and casualties (i.e. it just so happens that Israel has an Iron Dome and Hamas does not)? How many airfighters, helicopters, tanks, submarines, nukes does Palestinians have? Even skipping that - how many Hamas rockets have explosive/shrapnel/chemical capabilities (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/12939-israel-uses-illegal-weapons-in-gaza) *cough illegal weaponry*?
When Hamas entered Israel that ONE time recently through a tunnel, did they manage to cause any civilian casualties before getting killed?
If HAmas could kill more Israelis, I'm sure they would, but they arent able to - Israel is one of the largest and strongest armies in the world and quite easily defends itself against Hamas - probably more easily in this conflict than any other - because Hamas has hardly any modern military equipment. Saying that the ONLY reason Hamas rockets are not causing more casualties is because of the Iron dome is giving Hama's weaponry and capability way too much credit.

Maybe your saying more Palestinians die because Israel doesnt use human shields and Hamas does? Most people know Israel will strike at buildings and people it deems to be targets irregardless of their civilian purpose/status  (report posted recently: http://blogs.channel4.com/miller-on-foreign-affairs/gazas-humanitarian-disaster-trapped-gaza/1148 http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/gazas-alshifa-hospital/24224 also UN facilities hit: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/16/world/middleeast/16mideast.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0).
If Hamas are doing it to try to deter Israel strikes, its not working. If they are doing it to get propaganda material they are pretty desperate - and in the end, Gaza is a densely populated area so large scale attacks are going to cause large scale civilian casualties (700+ dead today, about 75% civilian according to UN) and if one is really concerned about saving innocent bystanders then one doesnt shoot at hospitals anyway to save oneself and endanger many others at the same time - EVEN IF it was the intent of the bad guy in the first place to use human shields and it is endangering oneself. If Israel knows HAmas will use innocents as shields, then Israel should, IMHO, try to find another solution (in this case ONLY by sending in ground troops to take out rockets and fighters with precision, not dropping massive bombs in residential areas). Pretty normal moral standard, really.
Dont get me wrong, Hamas shouold not be doing this, its illegal and really disgusting. But they are doing it, so what should Israel (assuming it is the moral superior) do differently then? Just continue anyway with bombing...?

In the end there are some reports of Israel committing human shield crimes... so it might not be black and white, as usual.
http://rt.com/news/israel-torture-palestinian-children-004/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html
If I get more time at some point ill post more / better info. but its out there if you look. Assume neither side is innocent and keep seeking the info.

And I'm not taking sides, even though to a proIsrali it must seem so (see last link at bottom). I deeply condone the human rights violations committed on both sides, as does any decent person. I believe equality of treatment and equality of all human rights is the only way to peace, its just that one side has almost all the support and the might of the biggest superpower in history, which means media + economic + military + political support... Palestinians have a tiny fraction of this and it shows.

OK, I'm done posting about this I'm getting tired and run out of time and so im sure no one is even reading it any more, so ill sign off on this (hopefully forever now) - the info is out there people. Do not believe me or anyone else, find it out for yourself. Assume everyone has a bias and cast a wide net when gathering info to form an opinion. No one is telling the full truth or knows everything about what is happening or what has happened. Just keep seeking info from everywhere and think things through to a logical conclusion or as close as one can. I'm certainly learning more every day and I've been following this horrible topic for decades, but as bad as it seems it is a lot better every year in terms of people getting educated and improved media openness.
Sorry for all the long posts in this thread and others, but it deserves more than flipquips. Equality = peace.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48330#.U9DDqPmSxUo

As anyone who has read the discussion in my vanity thread knows, I have no interest in politics or foreign affairs. I don't watch the news and while obviously I hear about the important stuff from my environment, I barely paid heed to the current situation in Israel before it started affecting my conference. Because of this I do not know, or care to learn or discuss, all the details of this issue which is, as you correctly state, extremely complicated. I also don't really treat the haters here very seriously, so I was satisfied with providing simplistic answers that explain the key counterpoints to the questions raised here.

Despite the length of your post and despite my general disinterest, I did read it fully because you have clearly made an effort to explore the subject in depth.

I won't address all of your points, I'll just say that Israel is indeed the big guy, and that I think it shows the restraint this position mandates. This point is carried across by this caricature by my favorite cartoonist from childhood. Israel's government and military - both the official policies and the individuals within it - are not saints, but they are making a great effort to maintain moral standards in impossible situations.

I deeply condone the human rights violations committed on both sides

Surely you mean "condemn". The meaning is obvious here but you want to be careful with typos that reverse the meaning.

Thanks for the correction, yes I did mean condemn! Sorry I was in a rush posting this.

" I don't watch the news and while obviously I hear about the important stuff from my environment, I barely paid heed to the current situation in Israel before it started affecting my conference. Because of this I do not know, or care to learn or discuss...I'll just say that Israel is indeed the big guy, and that I think it shows the restraint this position mandates"

I respect your prerogative to remain disconnected and detached for the situation, it's a hugely depressing one after all. I won't try to convince you otherwise, but all I will say that all our governments do wrong, some more than others, and it's our responsibility as tax payers to make sure we keep an eye on how they spend our money - after all we hired them, whether voting for the elected or not. It is a slippery slope when people let politicians run the country without the people taking an interest; its how many horrible regimes slip into office, become more powerful and convince nations to go to war or ignore their other crimes etc etc. There are plenty of examples in our not-too-distant history. The more people that question and objectively assess their governments the better they behave.

And in regard to the cartoon, that is your perception of the situation and that is fair enough, I appreciate you sharing it and your context. I won't try to convince you to agree with me, I'll just state my perspective on what you posted:)

As I said Israel could easily blow Palestine (and most nations in the region) into dust with their nukes and other weapons (that Palestinian groups do not have access to), so it depends on your interpretation of restraint and what is proportional.
To me the actions of Israel on Palestinian people are far from restrained in general and in this latest conflict, the latter illustrated by this cartoon which sums up my opinion in similar way... and this conflict is the most pronounced in terms of disproportion of destruction / military difference I've seen in a long time.
Even by looking at the latest death toll today (900~1000+ Pals, 60-75% civ's to 38 Israeli, 3 civ's) and looking at the pictures and films / reports of the areas that were bombed by IDF makes me wonder about how Israel would act if it were less restrained:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28498803
http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/humanitarian-ceasefire-dig-bare-hands/1298
In the end, shooting at civilian areas with a massive arsenal is going to cause large numbers of civilian casualties. If the shooter cared about innocent deaths, a less destructive method to hit military targets would be used - which I'm sure the world would not object to.
Both sides shoot at civilian areas, so any restraint exorcised by one side or the other would be seen in how they go about their operations and the resulting death tolls (Im sure Hamas take no care at all with any civilians, but IMHO there is no sign that Israel tries to avoid any Palestinian deaths either, which is evidenced by the UN facilities, Hospitals, schools etc that have been hit, so therefore are no better than Hamas).

You're clearly a good & intelligent person (you're organising a BTC conf!), I genuinely respect your right to your differing views on all of this, and I don't want to divert this thread any further, but I do hope that this current situation would spark in you a push to take an interest in what is happening to the people in the world close to you. Thanks

Final-final words: Equality for Palestinians & Israelis = peace.

[Technologov]

Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Their ONLY job in life is capturing and killing 3 Israeli children last month !!! This *MUST* be REVENGED !!!

[TheFootMan]

Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Their ONLY job in life is capturing and killing 3 Israeli children last month !!! This *MUST* be REVENGED !!!

The conflict is very sad. All I see is humans killing humans. And the cause of this is evil humans. If the evil humans were stopped, it would all stop. No normal people want to live in a state of war. I would not point the finger and take side in the conflict, but every person actively contributing to the conflict through bad actions is to blame. I feel sorry for all the people that have to endure this, esp. for the children who do not deserve to live in such a violent world. They deserve love and peace.

And I would say, no matter how angry you become, step aside and consider whether continued aggression and conflict is productive and constructive.

I do think that any conflict should be resolved by peaceful talks in todays society, and everyone can never be 100% satisfied, so there have to be compromises. Unfortunately it's the way of the few that ruins life for the many - this is very sad.

I'm very sad that all of this is happening, and there's nothing I can do. And there's been a conflict for many years, and it's not likely it's going to stop anytime soon. Life's too short - and humans waste it on a large scale. So sad.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

Going back to the original thread topic for a bit, I'm happy to announce that the conference will now take place on October 19-20. See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=734556 and the conference website http://bitcointlv.com/.