U.S. Aircraft Strike ISIS Targets in Iraq

[noviapriani]

That is all. Remember, I have been studying religion too. So I know how Jihadis think. I think more on the religious realm rather than the political realm. And we are in trouble if we let the majority not let the minority have rights. And that includes Israel not letting a Palestinian state be created, and that also includes the Arab world not recognizing Israel as a Jewish State. Both Jews and Palestinians are minority groups that need to be recognized in the Greater Middle East.

Edit: While I am secular, I feel that religion plays a lot of factors in the Greater Middle East.

Assad and Maliki's governments or the gulf states for that matter aren't built on the notion of equal representation. they are built on the notion of dictatorial control.
This is exactly how Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, etc operate. I guess I am seeing some disconnect between your stated ideology and your policy suggestions.

[umair127]

I am saying in the Greater Middle East. Not necessarily per country, but have most countries as a whole represented by majorities and a few countries represented by minorities.

For example 3 Shia-led States, a Jewish State, and a bunch of Sunni States. And then India on the Eastern End.

Not have a bunch of Sunni States with India and an endangered Israel. Israel, the U.S., and Iran can work together against ISIS. I think negotiations can work here.

[Alphi]

I am saying in the Greater Middle East. Not necessarily per country, but have most countries as a whole represented by majorities and a few countries represented by minorities.

For example 3 Shia-led States, a Jewish State, and a bunch of Sunni States. And then India on the Eastern End.

Not have a bunch of Sunni States with India and an endangered Israel. Israel, the U.S., and Iran can work together against ISIS. I think negotiations can work here.

you have an interesting view of the world.. Isreal is actually run by a minority group (oh right Palestinians don't count as people of Isreal even though they live under Isreali military law and live on the same land),  so is Syria, Jordan, and arguably Lebanon, Iraq, Eqypt....

[kuroman]

There are some radical Muslims that believe that they have do destroy different Sects (Shia) first before they move on to the Christians and Jews and then Allah will reveal Himself. It keeps the balance when at least several Muslim countries have a Shia Prime Minister. If Iraq and Syria fall to Sunni insurgents, then the only Shia-led State left will be Iran. This would unite Islamic extremists against Christians and Jews next.

Edit: There are even some Sunnis Muslims who believe that Shias are not even real Muslims.

WTF???




So Shia existance made it that the Islamic extremist are not united against Jews and Christians ? lol?


I don't from where you are getting such informations from, and I'm sorry to say so you are just speaking non sense in your post here. If Sunnis wanted to destroy Shiites they would have done so centuries ago.........

As for your edit, Yes there are a minority of Sunnis that thinks Shiites are not real muslim and the other way around is true as well, and it is the same for every religion, Christianism : Catholic Vs Protestant (among others of course as there are dozens of currents in Christianity), Jews : Karaite Judaism vs Orthodox Judaism ...ect)

[noviapriani]

I am saying in the Greater Middle East. Not necessarily per country, but have most countries as a whole represented by majorities and a few countries represented by minorities.

For example 3 Shia-led States, a Jewish State, and a bunch of Sunni States. And then India on the Eastern End.

Not have a bunch of Sunni States with India and an endangered Israel. Israel, the U.S., and Iran can work together against ISIS. I think negotiations can work here.

Right, so if you see it as a problem for the whole region, then why wouldn't it be a problem when it comes to a country by country basis?
Shia states have been just as antagonistic towards Israel, not sure how promoting them is supposed to automatically keep Israel safer.

[umair127]

The religious argument goes in here. I want to keep a balance of Shia and Sunni control so that Sunni insurgents do not overthrow Shia States and then turn to attacking Israel and the U.S.

[noviapriani]

The religious argument goes in here. I want to keep a balance of Shia and Sunni control so that Sunni insurgents do not overthrow Shia States and then turn to attacking Israel and the U.S.

So you want to perpetuate endless sectarian fighting so that Israel is never targeted? Or how exactly would that work to protect israel and the US?

[umair127]

The religious argument goes in here. I want to keep a balance of Shia and Sunni control so that Sunni insurgents do not overthrow Shia States and then turn to attacking Israel and the U.S.

So you want to perpetuate endless sectarian fighting so that Israel is never targeted? Or how exactly would that work to protect israel and the US?

No, I don't want Sectarian fighting, but I do want different Sects to control different countries. This keeps the Middle East in balance. My nightmare would be the Syrian and Iraqi Governments being toppled and being replaced with a Sunni ultra-religious State. This would drag Israel into war with it and would cause even more chaos in the Middle East.

[kuroman]

The religious argument goes in here. I want to keep a balance of Shia and Sunni control so that Sunni insurgents do not overthrow Shia States and then turn to attacking Israel and the U.S.

I understand your point but I'm trying to say it's quire simplistic thinking, if you didn't know Iran which is mostly Shiite has called or at least their religious leader called for the destruction of Israel. but that not the point

-Shia is just one current in Islam as there are many, is as if you are saying Orthodoxs, Protestant, Evangelist, Jehovah Witness..... ect should have their perspective countries, it doesn't make sense at all
-Sunnite are not a minority in Iraq, and what you are saying can only work when you have a minority of population hence it is working Iran or Israel, but in Iraq, you need to share power and have everyone threated equally if you want to solve the problems
-Isis are using the devision within Iraq to their advantage, Kurd, Sunnit, Shiite ... ect if there was no division this woudn't be an issue, if you want to solve the issue you need to solve the devision

No, I don't want Sectarian fighting, but I do want different Sects to control different countries. This keeps the Middle East in balance. My nightmare would be the Syrian and Iraqi Governments being toppled and being replaced with a Sunni ultra-religious State. This would drag Israel into war with it and would cause even more chaos in the Middle East.

This is once again is a wrong argument, Sects controlled countries are usually racists, and Israel is a good example of that, where non jewish people are considered second class citizens, on the other hand when things are done properly at least from this aspect, you don't find this kind of issues, and we can take countries like Tunisia or Morocco or Turkey as examples here. In Iraq Sunnites like i said before are not a minority, no matter who's the leader and what his personal convictions he needs to treat everyone equally

[bryant.coleman]

Considering the IS hates Saudi Arabia, simply blaming Wahhabism is a bit reductionist, and not very accurate. And yes, Maliki is a large part of the current problem. the IS aren't the majority actors in this fighting and Maliki had a direct role in killing the momentum of the Awakening movement against Al Qaeda.

Give me some proof for this statement. There is enough evidence to prove that the Saudi sheikhs are supporting IS in Syria. In fact, Saudi is the no.2 sponsor, after Qatar. And Wahabbism is the driving ideology behind IS.

[zolace]

People blame Maliki as if his 'sins' justify what ISIS are doing. Wahhabism is the root of the problem. It's politics. Give them time to commit their atrocities, so the US will look like the great saviour.That being said, I fully support any country that will bomb these fucks out of existence.

No, lack of inclusiveness is the problem in this case. But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about Maliki refusing to step down even though he has virtually no support.

[umair127]

It still doesn't excuse the formation of ISIS. They're too radical regardless of how Sunnis feel excluded.

[Alphi]

Considering the IS hates Saudi Arabia, simply blaming Wahhabism is a bit reductionist, and not very accurate. And yes, Maliki is a large part of the current problem. the IS aren't the majority actors in this fighting and Maliki had a direct role in killing the momentum of the Awakening movement against Al Qaeda.

Give me some proof for this statement. There is enough evidence to prove that the Saudi sheikhs are supporting IS in Syria. In fact, Saudi is the no.2 sponsor, after Qatar. And Wahabbism is the driving ideology behind IS.

the number 1 sponsor of the Saudi regime is the USA...
the Saudi regime is seen as a puppet of the US by everyone in the middle east (its not like it was ever a secret)

but does that mean that the US is behind IS?
IS are a threat to everyone not just the US and Isreal.

Saudi Arabia, Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah see IS (ISIS) as a threat.. lets not get too carried away with the idea of state sponsored terrorism.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/views/news/middle-east/2014/08/07/Lebanon-Saudi-Arabia-ISIS-and-Hezbollah.html

[BCEmporium]

No, I don't want Sectarian fighting, but I do want different Sects to control different countries. This keeps the Middle East in balance. My nightmare would be the Syrian and Iraqi Governments being toppled and being replaced with a Sunni ultra-religious State. This would drag Israel into war with it and would cause even more chaos in the Middle East.

Shia states aren't much better... That's the main issue, there's no peace in Islam, never been and never will be. Other than Shias and Sunnis, you still have Sufists, Amahddya and a whole lot of Islamic shreds, every of them hating others and none better than others.
The only solution is to move them towards secularism, like Turkey, other than that they will keep fighting. But a move to secularism has to come from within them, not imposed at gun point, and that can only be achieved by providing them with schools - not shitty Madrassas - and providing protection to those willing to move away from Islam.
To sum this up: an Arab born Arab, nobody born Muslim (or Christian or whatever), that's imposed to them at young age by a dark aged culture, and this is what needs to be stopped. But as long as the ignorant elders are in control, new generations are sunk into ignorance as well.

Israel on the other hand is well able to keep by itself. It was already attacked by a joint muslim force, with no success.

[noviapriani]

It still doesn't excuse the formation of ISIS. They're too radical regardless of how Sunnis feel excluded.

He wasn't explaining the formation of the ISIS. He was explaining why Iraqi Sunnis would rebel against the central Iraqi government which creates a space for ISIS to operate in.

[bryant.coleman]

even Saudi Arabia, Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah see them as a threat.. lets not get too carried away with the idea of state sponsored terrorism.

Hmm.... Iran and Hezbollah have reasons to hate the ISIS. But what about Saudi Arabia and Hamas? Right now, the ISIS pose no danger to Saudi Arabia. And the Saudis are more concerned about the Shia population in the oil producing Eastern province (Dhahran / Dammam region), than any Sunni Arab terrorist organizations.

[Alphi]

even Saudi Arabia, Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah see them as a threat.. lets not get too carried away with the idea of state sponsored terrorism.

Hmm.... Iran and Hezbollah have reasons to hate the ISIS. But what about Saudi Arabia and Hamas? Right now, the ISIS pose no danger to Saudi Arabia. And the Saudis are more concerned about the Shia population in the oil producing Eastern province (Dhahran / Dammam region), than any Sunni Arab terrorist organizations.

ill post the link again since I added it while you were typing.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/views/news/middle-east/2014/08/07/Lebanon-Saudi-Arabia-ISIS-and-Hezbollah.html

Hamas is a national liberation movement.. if they were taken over by ISIS there would be no Palestine and no point to Hamas. Hamas do not want to be part of Isreal and they certainly do not want to be part of some caliphate.. they want to rule over Palestine by and for themselves just like the Zionists do..

Saudi motivations are also clear.. being a puppet regime of the US they need US backing to stay in power.
they don't get US backing if they do anything to support ISIS.

[noviapriani]

Much of said "support" has nothing to do with theological beliefs, but practical concerns of sectarian violence and concerns of political marginalization.

[Alphi]

Much of said "support" has nothing to do with theological beliefs, but practical concerns of sectarian violence and concerns of political marginalization.

I agree it has always been about political manoeuvring and rivalries. they all see IS as a threat because IS wants to destroy all national borders between them.

if the IS caliphate existed the way they want it.. there would be no Syria, No Iraq, No Iraqi kurdistan, no Jordan, no Lebanon, no Palestine and no Isreal.

that is why it was called the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) originally. the Levant + Iraq is the fertile crescent which takes in all of those countries.

[umair127]

Much of said "support" has nothing to do with theological beliefs, but practical concerns of sectarian violence and concerns of political marginalization.

I agree it has always been about political manoeuvring and rivalries. they all see IS as a threat because IS wants to destroy all national borders between them.

if the IS caliphate existed the way they want it.. there would be no Syria, No Iraq, No Iraqi kurdistan, no Jordan, no Lebanon, no Palestine and no Isreal.

that is why it was called the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) originally. the Levant + Iraq is the fertile crescent which takes in all of those countries.

It's true. Shias and Sunnis have been fighting in Iraq for over a decade and Sunnis feel marginalized.But at the same time, it's like making a deal with the devil.I wish Iraq's Sunnis had a better way to help their people rather than rely on those ISIS monsters.