Syria vs. ISIS

[Rigon]

Hmmm...let's recall.

When Bashir Assad started using chemical weapons on his own people, Obama wanted to stop him and went so far, against the better judgment of Congress and leftists, and the racist judgment of rightwingers, to threaten to bomb him without either Congressional OR UN authorization.

We can all remember, of course, the splenetic outrage at the mere threat, not the execution the mere threat of bombing Assad. It was a waste! Who cares if he uses WMD! Obama should never have drawn a red line!

Now, fast forward to ISIS. Obama doesn't draw a red line, and expresses reluctance to bomb. Now the rightwing says, "But, it's a humanitarian crisis! It's genocide! Why didn't he stop it before! We have to go to war war war.

People deny my statement that much of the division of this nation arises from the outright hatred for and racism towards the black guy in the White House, such that no matter WHAT he does he is deemed wrong.


Isn't this the perfect example of that?


We need to deal with the rightwing in this nation. They need to be silenced, one way or the other.

[sana8410]

The thing is that in the case of sarin gas in Syria, it wasn't the government using it but the "rebels".

One thing about sarin is that it is relatively easy to work out its origins and the stuff in Ghouta was from Turkey who would never supply Assad.

[sana8410]

So Obama was saved by Putin from causing yet another mess in the Middle East.

Now we have ISIS which is an offshoot of ISIL which was initially funded and armed by the US attacking Iraq and Syria.  They probably shouldn't be allowed to wreck havoc there.  I have no idea what would be the best approach but I feel sure America won't employ it.

[Ron~Popeil]

Hmmm...let's recall.

When Bashir Assad started using chemical weapons on his own people, Obama wanted to stop him and went so far, against the better judgment of Congress and leftists, and the racist judgment of rightwingers, to threaten to bomb him without either Congressional OR UN authorization.

We can all remember, of course, the splenetic outrage at the mere threat, not the execution the mere threat of bombing Assad. It was a waste! Who cares if he uses WMD! Obama should never have drawn a red line!

Now, fast forward to ISIS. Obama doesn't draw a red line, and expresses reluctance to bomb. Now the rightwing says, "But, it's a humanitarian crisis! It's genocide! Why didn't he stop it before! We have to go to war war war.

People deny my statement that much of the division of this nation arises from the outright hatred for and racism towards the black guy in the White House, such that no matter WHAT he does he is deemed wrong.


Isn't this the perfect example of that?


We need to deal with the rightwing in this nation. They need to be silenced, one way or the other.

How do you propose "silencing" them? Should dissent only be tolerated when it is leftist?

Not sure what race has to do with this but your own bias and even prejudice is on display here.

[Rigon]

The thing is that in the case of sarin gas in Syria, it wasn't the government using it but the "rebels".

One thing about sarin is that it is relatively easy to work out its origins and the stuff in Ghouta was from Turkey who would never supply Assad.

there's not a shred of evidence that the sarin came from Turkey. That both sides have used it is undoubted, but to try and make the exact instance to which Obama responded the fault of the rebels is just more of his anti-American fantasizing. No matter what America does.

[noviapriani]

The thing is that in the case of sarin gas in Syria, it wasn't the government using it but the "rebels".

One thing about sarin is that it is relatively easy to work out its origins and the stuff in Ghouta was from Turkey who would never supply Assad.

there's not a shred of evidence that the sarin came from Turkey. That both sides have used it is undoubted, but to try and make the exact instance to which Obama responded the fault of the rebels is just more of his anti-American fantasizing. No matter what America does.

The facts are the facts.  Much of the chemical weapons used in Syria did NOT originate in Assad's arsenals.  That some of it did is not conclusive, because the rebels got control of many of the weapons stockpiles.

[dakingcoinz]

 agree theres no reason to think that this wasnt some goverment started stuff. 

[bryant.coleman]

The facts are the facts.  Much of the chemical weapons used in Syria did NOT originate in Assad's arsenals.  That some of it did is not conclusive, because the rebels got control of many of the weapons stockpiles.

As per neutral reports, both the pro-Assad forces and the anti-Assad forces (ISIS, FSA.etc) were using chemical weapons. Now Assad's stoke pile is taken away by the mediators. That leaves just the ISIS and the FSA with the chemical weapons.

[Chef Ramsay]

Hmmm...let's recall.

When Bashir Assad started using chemical weapons on his own people, Obama wanted to stop him and went so far, against the better judgment of Congress and leftists, and the racist judgment of rightwingers, to threaten to bomb him without either Congressional OR UN authorization.

We can all remember, of course, the splenetic outrage at the mere threat, not the execution the mere threat of bombing Assad. It was a waste! Who cares if he uses WMD! Obama should never have drawn a red line!

Now, fast forward to ISIS. Obama doesn't draw a red line, and expresses reluctance to bomb. Now the rightwing says, "But, it's a humanitarian crisis! It's genocide! Why didn't he stop it before! We have to go to war war war.

People deny my statement that much of the division of this nation arises from the outright hatred for and racism towards the black guy in the White House, such that no matter WHAT he does he is deemed wrong.


Isn't this the perfect example of that?


We need to deal with the rightwing in this nation. They need to be silenced, one way or the other.

How do you propose "silencing" them? Should dissent only be tolerated when it is leftist?

Not sure what race has to do with this but your own bias and even prejudice is on display here.

The true leftist believers and their drone pawns always use and fall for the racial card. Most if not everything is going wrong for the President and it's probably by design so they're really hoping impeachment trends among republicans so the card can come out and gin up the base because of this black pride and white guilt scenario that persists.

[zolace]

The thing is that in the case of sarin gas in Syria, it wasn't the government using it but the "rebels".

One thing about sarin is that it is relatively easy to work out its origins and the stuff in Ghouta was from Turkey who would never supply Assad.

there's not a shred of evidence that the sarin came from Turkey. That both sides have used it is undoubted, but to try and make the exact instance to which Obama responded the fault of the rebels is just more of his anti-American fantasizing. No matter what America does.

The facts are the facts.  Much of the chemical weapons used in Syria did NOT originate in Assad's arsenals.  That some of it did is not conclusive, because the rebels got control of many of the weapons stockpiles.

Geneva Convention, made it illegal litterally world wide to use chemical weapons.  To hard to understand where some came from in Syria?  Try to remember the country Iraq.  And the use against who there?  The Christian villages where the ISIS are doing basic same again.  How.  Partly with captured weapons left to Iraq by our leaving.  The Ottoman Empire used simular tactics as used during modern times, the origin was Turkey. Another tactic used by the Ottomans was that of propaganda, like doe's, to politicise the next place of attact.  However during the Ottoman Empire the tactic of this or that religion was not employed.  It might be concidered, in honest mannor, the reasons of those tactics.  But that would have to cause memory of the reason the Muslims were caused.  And do remember, the peak of the religion is God.  Is it to difficult to remember ?  But o f course the word and intent of honesty is to difficult.

[umair127]

Hmmm...let's recall.

When Bashir Assad started using chemical weapons on his own people, Obama wanted to stop him and went so far, against the better judgment of Congress and leftists, and the racist judgment of rightwingers, to threaten to bomb him without either Congressional OR UN authorization.

We can all remember, of course, the splenetic outrage at the mere threat, not the execution the mere threat of bombing Assad. It was a waste! Who cares if he uses WMD! Obama should never have drawn a red line!

Now, fast forward to ISIS. Obama doesn't draw a red line, and expresses reluctance to bomb. Now the rightwing says, "But, it's a humanitarian crisis! It's genocide! Why didn't he stop it before! We have to go to war war war.

People deny my statement that much of the division of this nation arises from the outright hatred for and racism towards the black guy in the White House, such that no matter WHAT he does he is deemed wrong.


Isn't this the perfect example of that?


We need to deal with the rightwing in this nation. They need to be silenced, one way or the other.

If you want to test the weakness of a leftist argument, see if he played the race card. If he did, did he present any evidence that race played a part? If not, you can simply throw it in the trash where it belongs.

[sana8410]

The thing is that in the case of sarin gas in Syria, it wasn't the government using it but the "rebels".

One thing about sarin is that it is relatively easy to work out its origins and the stuff in Ghouta was from Turkey who would never supply Assad.

there's not a shred of evidence that the sarin came from Turkey. That both sides have used it is undoubted, but to try and make the exact instance to which Obama responded the fault of the rebels is just more of his anti-American fantasizing. No matter what America does.

You can find some evidence in this link  as to the origin of the sarin.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line
For months there had been acute concern among senior military leaders and the intelligence community about the role in the war of Syria’s neighbours, especially Turkey. Prime Minister Recep Erdoğan was known to be supporting the al-Nusra Front, a jihadist faction among the rebel opposition, as well as other Islamist rebel groups. ‘We knew there were some in the Turkish government,’ a former senior US intelligence official, who has access to current intelligence, told me, ‘who believed they could get Assad’s nuts in a vice by dabbling with a sarin attack inside Syria – and forcing Obama to make good on his red line threat.’

The joint chiefs also knew that the Obama administration’s public claims that only the Syrian army had access to sarin were wrong. The American and British intelligence communities had been aware since the spring of 2013 that some rebel units in Syria were developing chemical weapons. On 20 June analysts for the US Defense Intelligence Agency issued a highly classified five-page ‘talking points’ briefing for the DIA’s deputy director, David Shedd, which stated that al-Nusra maintained a sarin production cell: its programme, the paper said, was ‘the most advanced sarin plot since al-Qaida’s pre-9/11 effort’. (According to a Defense Department consultant, US intelligence has long known that al-Qaida experimented with chemical weapons, and has a video of one of its gas experiments with dogs.) The DIA paper went on: ‘Previous IC [intelligence community] focus had been almost entirely on Syrian CW [chemical weapons] stockpiles; now we see ANF attempting to make its own CW … Al-Nusrah Front’s relative freedom of operation within Syria leads us to assess the group’s CW aspirations will be difficult to disrupt in the future.’ The paper drew on classified intelligence from numerous agencies: ‘Turkey and Saudi-based chemical facilitators,’ it said, ‘were attempting to obtain sarin precursors in bulk, tens of kilograms, likely for the anticipated large scale production effort in Syria.’ (Asked about the DIA paper, a spokesperson for the director of national intelligence said: ‘No such paper was ever requested or produced by intelligence community analysts.’)

[Rigon]

Hmmm...let's recall.

When Bashir Assad started using chemical weapons on his own people, Obama wanted to stop him and went so far, against the better judgment of Congress and leftists, and the racist judgment of rightwingers, to threaten to bomb him without either Congressional OR UN authorization.

We can all remember, of course, the splenetic outrage at the mere threat, not the execution the mere threat of bombing Assad. It was a waste! Who cares if he uses WMD! Obama should never have drawn a red line!

Now, fast forward to ISIS. Obama doesn't draw a red line, and expresses reluctance to bomb. Now the rightwing says, "But, it's a humanitarian crisis! It's genocide! Why didn't he stop it before! We have to go to war war war.

People deny my statement that much of the division of this nation arises from the outright hatred for and racism towards the black guy in the White House, such that no matter WHAT he does he is deemed wrong.


Isn't this the perfect example of that?


We need to deal with the rightwing in this nation. They need to be silenced, one way or the other.

If you want to test the weakness of a leftist argument, see if he played the race card. If he did, did he present any evidence that race played a part? If not, you can simply throw it in the trash where it belongs.

When Obama was being seen worldwide as issuing meaningless moving red lines, he asked Congress to authorize bombing Syria.  Even without the hyperbole, he is full of crap.  

[zolace]

The thing is that in the case of sarin gas in Syria, it wasn't the government using it but the "rebels".

One thing about sarin is that it is relatively easy to work out its origins and the stuff in Ghouta was from Turkey who would never supply Assad.

there's not a shred of evidence that the sarin came from Turkey. That both sides have used it is undoubted, but to try and make the exact instance to which Obama responded the fault of the rebels is just more of his anti-American fantasizing. No matter what America does.

You can find some evidence in this link  as to the origin of the sarin.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line
For months there had been acute concern among senior military leaders and the intelligence community about the role in the war of Syria’s neighbours, especially Turkey. Prime Minister Recep Erdoğan was known to be supporting the al-Nusra Front, a jihadist faction among the rebel opposition, as well as other Islamist rebel groups. ‘We knew there were some in the Turkish government,’ a former senior US intelligence official, who has access to current intelligence, told me, ‘who believed they could get Assad’s nuts in a vice by dabbling with a sarin attack inside Syria – and forcing Obama to make good on his red line threat.’

The joint chiefs also knew that the Obama administration’s public claims that only the Syrian army had access to sarin were wrong. The American and British intelligence communities had been aware since the spring of 2013 that some rebel units in Syria were developing chemical weapons. On 20 June analysts for the US Defense Intelligence Agency issued a highly classified five-page ‘talking points’ briefing for the DIA’s deputy director, David Shedd, which stated that al-Nusra maintained a sarin production cell: its programme, the paper said, was ‘the most advanced sarin plot since al-Qaida’s pre-9/11 effort’. (According to a Defense Department consultant, US intelligence has long known that al-Qaida experimented with chemical weapons, and has a video of one of its gas experiments with dogs.) The DIA paper went on: ‘Previous IC [intelligence community] focus had been almost entirely on Syrian CW [chemical weapons] stockpiles; now we see ANF attempting to make its own CW … Al-Nusrah Front’s relative freedom of operation within Syria leads us to assess the group’s CW aspirations will be difficult to disrupt in the future.’ The paper drew on classified intelligence from numerous agencies: ‘Turkey and Saudi-based chemical facilitators,’ it said, ‘were attempting to obtain sarin precursors in bulk, tens of kilograms, likely for the anticipated large scale production effort in Syria.’ (Asked about the DIA paper, a spokesperson for the director of national intelligence said: ‘No such paper was ever requested or produced by intelligence community analysts.’)

At the time, there were a couple of UN observer groups who both noticed that the culprits were the rebels, not the government.

Several "intelligence" outfits from various countries claimed and were reported as proven, but it is now apparent that these claims were lies fabricated to elicit the response that Obama initially came up with as a proposal.

Luckily they were not carried out.

[sana8410]

When America does right, as during the presidency of Jimmy Carter, I have acknowledged it.  Unfortunately doing right did for Mr Carter and he was voted out.  

Actually, some other things Americans have done are right too, few of them during GOP presidencies, however.

[umair127]

The thing is that in the case of sarin gas in Syria, it wasn't the government using it but the "rebels".

One thing about sarin is that it is relatively easy to work out its origins and the stuff in Ghouta was from Turkey who would never supply Assad.

there's not a shred of evidence that the sarin came from Turkey. That both sides have used it is undoubted, but to try and make the exact instance to which Obama responded the fault of the rebels is just more of his anti-American fantasizing. No matter what America does.

You can find some evidence in this link  as to the origin of the sarin.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line
For months there had been acute concern among senior military leaders and the intelligence community about the role in the war of Syria’s neighbours, especially Turkey. Prime Minister Recep Erdoğan was known to be supporting the al-Nusra Front, a jihadist faction among the rebel opposition, as well as other Islamist rebel groups. ‘We knew there were some in the Turkish government,’ a former senior US intelligence official, who has access to current intelligence, told me, ‘who believed they could get Assad’s nuts in a vice by dabbling with a sarin attack inside Syria – and forcing Obama to make good on his red line threat.’

The joint chiefs also knew that the Obama administration’s public claims that only the Syrian army had access to sarin were wrong. The American and British intelligence communities had been aware since the spring of 2013 that some rebel units in Syria were developing chemical weapons. On 20 June analysts for the US Defense Intelligence Agency issued a highly classified five-page ‘talking points’ briefing for the DIA’s deputy director, David Shedd, which stated that al-Nusra maintained a sarin production cell: its programme, the paper said, was ‘the most advanced sarin plot since al-Qaida’s pre-9/11 effort’. (According to a Defense Department consultant, US intelligence has long known that al-Qaida experimented with chemical weapons, and has a video of one of its gas experiments with dogs.) The DIA paper went on: ‘Previous IC [intelligence community] focus had been almost entirely on Syrian CW [chemical weapons] stockpiles; now we see ANF attempting to make its own CW … Al-Nusrah Front’s relative freedom of operation within Syria leads us to assess the group’s CW aspirations will be difficult to disrupt in the future.’ The paper drew on classified intelligence from numerous agencies: ‘Turkey and Saudi-based chemical facilitators,’ it said, ‘were attempting to obtain sarin precursors in bulk, tens of kilograms, likely for the anticipated large scale production effort in Syria.’ (Asked about the DIA paper, a spokesperson for the director of national intelligence said: ‘No such paper was ever requested or produced by intelligence community analysts.’)

Neither your link nor the posted quotes show a connection between the WMD of the rebels and that specific to the attack which triggered Obama's actions.

The question is the specific attack that we are talking about. If your position is that we should have done nothing, since both sides had it, then just say so and be done with it. But given the likelihood of which side would be able to use it to greater extent, and given the fact that in this instance it was Assad, not the rebels, who used it, then Obama still made the right call.

[umair127]

The thing is that in the case of sarin gas in Syria, it wasn't the government using it but the "rebels".

One thing about sarin is that it is relatively easy to work out its origins and the stuff in Ghouta was from Turkey who would never supply Assad.

there's not a shred of evidence that the sarin came from Turkey. That both sides have used it is undoubted, but to try and make the exact instance to which Obama responded the fault of the rebels is just more of his anti-American fantasizing. No matter what America does.

You can find some evidence in this link  as to the origin of the sarin.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line
For months there had been acute concern among senior military leaders and the intelligence community about the role in the war of Syria’s neighbours, especially Turkey. Prime Minister Recep Erdoğan was known to be supporting the al-Nusra Front, a jihadist faction among the rebel opposition, as well as other Islamist rebel groups. ‘We knew there were some in the Turkish government,’ a former senior US intelligence official, who has access to current intelligence, told me, ‘who believed they could get Assad’s nuts in a vice by dabbling with a sarin attack inside Syria – and forcing Obama to make good on his red line threat.’

The joint chiefs also knew that the Obama administration’s public claims that only the Syrian army had access to sarin were wrong. The American and British intelligence communities had been aware since the spring of 2013 that some rebel units in Syria were developing chemical weapons. On 20 June analysts for the US Defense Intelligence Agency issued a highly classified five-page ‘talking points’ briefing for the DIA’s deputy director, David Shedd, which stated that al-Nusra maintained a sarin production cell: its programme, the paper said, was ‘the most advanced sarin plot since al-Qaida’s pre-9/11 effort’. (According to a Defense Department consultant, US intelligence has long known that al-Qaida experimented with chemical weapons, and has a video of one of its gas experiments with dogs.) The DIA paper went on: ‘Previous IC [intelligence community] focus had been almost entirely on Syrian CW [chemical weapons] stockpiles; now we see ANF attempting to make its own CW … Al-Nusrah Front’s relative freedom of operation within Syria leads us to assess the group’s CW aspirations will be difficult to disrupt in the future.’ The paper drew on classified intelligence from numerous agencies: ‘Turkey and Saudi-based chemical facilitators,’ it said, ‘were attempting to obtain sarin precursors in bulk, tens of kilograms, likely for the anticipated large scale production effort in Syria.’ (Asked about the DIA paper, a spokesperson for the director of national intelligence said: ‘No such paper was ever requested or produced by intelligence community analysts.’)

At the time, there were a couple of UN observer groups who both noticed that the culprits were the rebels, not the government.

Several "intelligence" outfits from various countries claimed and were reported as proven, but it is now apparent that these claims were lies fabricated to elicit the response that Obama initially came up with as a proposal.

Luckily they were not carried out.

uh huh. There were also a couple of groups who thought the Israelis were responsible. Bet you agree with those as well, hmmm? In fact, I bet you agree with whatever makes America look worst, no matter how fantastical in notion it is.

[umair127]

Your monomania is boring, zolace. You are capable of looking at things only through the prism of your futile hatred of this country. Enjoy your moment in the sun--as soon as the black guy is out of office, those cheering you on won't be listening anymore, and they'll instead be laughing, as I do, at a man incapable of thinking for himself.

[hdbuck]

snowden latest scoop: ISIS supreme leader al bagdhadi trained by mossad

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/24/376378/baghdadi-mossadtrained-saudifunded/

rofl

[zolace]

Your monomania is boring, zolace. You are capable of looking at things only through the prism of your futile hatred of this country. Enjoy your moment in the sun--as soon as the black guy is out of office, those cheering you on won't be listening anymore, and they'll instead be laughing, as I do, at a man incapable of thinking for himself.

You can mock without substance if you want to.It has been established that the Assad regime did not use sarin on Syrians, certainly not at the time in question.