[PRE-ANN][ZEN][Pre-sale] Zennet: Decentralized Supercomputer - Official Thread

[HunterMinerCrafter]

My question is why do you think we need a decentralized Amazon web services?

There are probably many answers to this.  The "big one" of course is that AWS is not a free market.  Amazon holds something like a monopoly, and fixes their pricing as they see fit.

Zennet offers the same infrastructure technologies that AWS does but with price negotiation.  It enforces competition.

What are you trying to solve with this project? I believe it would be more powerful if say a poor kid in Isreal had an idea and that such a service was available. Or For that class room in Africa and others like it all over the world that do not have the computer power needed to study X technology. I think what the spirit of Bitcoin has is what is missing in Zencoin. Understand what I mean?

I strongly disagree!  Because AWS "prices out" those poor kids in Africa and Zennet allows for open exchange there is an opportunity here for those kids that amazon can never (or would never?) realistically offer.  Zennet would even allow for some provider to choose to *donate* overflow cycles to those poor kids.

This should be disrupting companies like Amazon web services not competing with them. I feel there is a difference.

In the end it will likely do both, but only on some fronts.  It will compete for HPC business, and will disrupt for pricing of highly elastic but continual workload.  Remember that AWS and Zennet serve different-but-overlapping use cases, so there are some applications for which AWS will always be the better choice and for which zennet will neither compete nor disrupt.  It will never be able to attempt to compete on availability assurances and will never be able to attempt to disrupt Amazon's advanced, high-level I/O facilities.  (Because this is simply not something it "can intend" to disrupt in a meaningful way.)

It is a competitor, but not a direct competitor.  It is a disruption, but not a total disruption.

[ohad]

This should be disrupting companies like Amazon web services not competing with them. I feel there is a difference.

It will never be able to attempt to compete on availability assurances and will never be able to attempt to disrupt Amazon's advanced, high-level I/O facilities.  (Because this is simply not something it "can intend" to disrupt in a meaningful way.)

It is a competitor, but not a direct competitor.  It is a disruption, but not a total disruption.

IMHO the Trusted Publisher/Provider mechanism will make Zennet the ultimate solution even for AWS, from a pure economical point of view. If you have a datacenter, probably the ultimate way to monetize it is over a free and open market.
AWS can have an address on Zennet, set their own prices and configs (the network is very flexible), and give their own assurances.
From pure economical point of view (only?), even Google doesn't have to buy or rent hardware any more if not over Zennet.

[HunterMinerCrafter]

IMHO the Trusted Publisher/Provider mechanism will make Zennet the ultimate solution even for AWS, from a pure economical point of view. If you have a datacenter, probably the ultimate way to monetize it is over a free and open market.
AWS can have an address on Zennet, set their own prices and configs (the network is very flexible), and give their own assurances.
From pure economical point of view (only?), even Google doesn't have to buy or rent hardware any more if not over Zennet.

Very true, but this all happens naturally and side-band to zennet itself, with the exception of zennet offering a facility for a participant to "cry foul" to that "meta-market" community against an established identity in an independently verifiable way.  If I get an insane bill of X or don't get paid what services Y that I bill sanely for, I can have a certificate that it is necessarily the case that the bill in question was for X, and what services in question were Y.  The independent participants of the "meta-market" can look at those certificates and know that is what was attempted to be transacted, and make their own decision about who to trust more and who to ding, if any, in their own local trust metric.  None of this process is a part of zennet itself, but zennet should offer the two tools necessary to do it securely in a decentralized fashion - resource accounting certificates and receipt certificates.

Of course some will point out how it is an "unsolvable problem" just like "double spend" so zennet does something very similar to what btc did, solves it only with probabilistic proofs.  The details are lightly messy, so I'll just refer interested readers to the pricing whitepaper.

Those probabilistic proofs over ledger-of-account are why I <3 bitcoin and the addition of some more probabilistic proof certificates over ledger-of-resource-account are why I will <3 zennet.  Simple.

Anyway, I guess what zennet could never really provide is the combination of both ongoing assurance and immediate elasticity, where AWS can provide this up to their fixed capacity.  Zennet itself has no fixed capacity, and makes no assurances about the types of hardware available at any particular moment.  Of course this is just a trade-off against how many nodes you are willing to trust.  Remember that pricing selections and publisher/provider inclusion (which zennet largely treats as the same problem) are easily handled with some local scripts so you get to decide these conditions yourself.

[kjn311]

Interesting. Any plans for an interview on "Let's talk Bitcoin" podcast?

[ohad]

Interesting. Any plans for an interview on "Let's talk Bitcoin" podcast?

no. good idea.
btw there is an old podcast here http://insidehpc.com/2014/08/radio-free-hpc-looks-xennet-initiative/

[kjn311]

Interesting. Any plans for an interview on "Let's talk Bitcoin" podcast?

no. good idea.
btw there is an old podcast here http://insidehpc.com/2014/08/radio-free-hpc-looks-xennet-initiative/

Cool thanks.   

[ohad]

New introductory video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6ugwS6_DDU

[ItsNotMe]

Someone is going to do this with BTC and then Zencoin will be worthless. No one wants to convert to BTC then to Zen...BTC wins and this project ends up in the trash can. You should set up a changetip type wallet service and have % withdrawl fee to monetize this project. Use BTC if you want this to be successful.

[ohad]

Someone is going to do this with BTC and then Zencoin will be worthless. No one wants to convert to BTC then to Zen...BTC wins and this project ends up in the trash can.

if it would be possible to do it over BTC, I'd do it..

[ItsNotMe]

Someone is going to do this with BTC and then Zencoin will be worthless. No one wants to convert to BTC then to Zen...BTC wins and this project ends up in the trash can. You should set up a changetip type wallet service and have % withdrawl fee to monetize this project. Use BTC if you want this to be successful.

if it would be possible to do it over BTC, I'd do it..

I edited the post...sry.

[ohad]

Someone is going to do this with BTC and then Zencoin will be worthless. No one wants to convert to BTC then to Zen...BTC wins and this project ends up in the trash can.

if it would be possible to do it over BTC, I'd do it..

I edited the post...sry.

yes i understand. but why would someone do it over BTC? it'll be so much slow and unacceptable for the renting entities.
it's just impossible to 'do it right' with BTC
also pls note this issue has been discussed here several times, and no one came up with a way to do it with BTC

[ItsNotMe]

Someone is going to do this with BTC and then Zencoin will be worthless. No one wants to convert to BTC then to Zen...BTC wins and this project ends up in the trash can.

if it would be possible to do it over BTC, I'd do it..

I edited the post...sry.

yes i understand. but why would someone do it over BTC? it'll be so much slow and unacceptable for the renting entities.
it's just impossible to 'do it right' with BTC
also pls note this issue has been discussed here several times, and no one came up with a way to do it with BTC

I'm saying this would work much better as a centralized wallet service like changetip that skim the payments or withdrawals to monetize the project. You get the ICO money so I understand you wanting to pursue this direction. You could get VC funding for this biz in BTC I'm sure...maybe head that direction before you waste a lot of people's money.

[ohad]

Someone is going to do this with BTC and then Zencoin will be worthless. No one wants to convert to BTC then to Zen...BTC wins and this project ends up in the trash can.

if it would be possible to do it over BTC, I'd do it..

I edited the post...sry.

yes i understand. but why would someone do it over BTC? it'll be so much slow and unacceptable for the renting entities.
it's just impossible to 'do it right' with BTC
also pls note this issue has been discussed here several times, and no one came up with a way to do it with BTC

I'm saying this would work much better as a centralized wallet service like changetip that skim the payments or withdrawals to monetize the project. You get the ICO money so I understand you wanting to pursue this direction. You could get VC funding for this biz in BTC I'm sure...maybe head that direction before you waste a lot of people's money.

Well, the point is to make it decentralized
And I'm long years in software entrepreneurship, and have no problem with convincing VCs, but I don't think it's the way. Make the switch: I'm not here to scam anyone.

[ItsNotMe]

Someone is going to do this with BTC and then Zencoin will be worthless. No one wants to convert to BTC then to Zen...BTC wins and this project ends up in the trash can.

if it would be possible to do it over BTC, I'd do it..

I edited the post...sry.

yes i understand. but why would someone do it over BTC? it'll be so much slow and unacceptable for the renting entities.
it's just impossible to 'do it right' with BTC
also pls note this issue has been discussed here several times, and no one came up with a way to do it with BTC

I'm saying this would work much better as a centralized wallet service like changetip that skim the payments or withdrawals to monetize the project. You get the ICO money so I understand you wanting to pursue this direction. You could get VC funding for this biz in BTC I'm sure...maybe head that direction before you waste a lot of people's money.

Well, the point is to make it decentralized

Why? This is what I am saying...someone will do this in BTC as a biz. It will launch before you can cause it really is not that much original coding and then investors money will be wasted.

[ohad]

Someone is going to do this with BTC and then Zencoin will be worthless. No one wants to convert to BTC then to Zen...BTC wins and this project ends up in the trash can.

if it would be possible to do it over BTC, I'd do it..

I edited the post...sry.

yes i understand. but why would someone do it over BTC? it'll be so much slow and unacceptable for the renting entities.
it's just impossible to 'do it right' with BTC
also pls note this issue has been discussed here several times, and no one came up with a way to do it with BTC

I'm saying this would work much better as a centralized wallet service like changetip that skim the payments or withdrawals to monetize the project. You get the ICO money so I understand you wanting to pursue this direction. You could get VC funding for this biz in BTC I'm sure...maybe head that direction before you waste a lot of people's money.

Well, the point is to make it decentralized

Why? This is what I am saying...someone will do this in BTC as a biz. It will launch before you can cause it really is not that much original coding and then investors money will be wasted.

1. the coin part is the most un-original part. the computation and market and security etc. parts are the problem.
2. no one will do it for free. on zennet, being decentralized, no one takes any kind of fee. no middlemen at all.

PS note the last comment was edited

[ItsNotMe]

Someone is going to do this with BTC and then Zencoin will be worthless. No one wants to convert to BTC then to Zen...BTC wins and this project ends up in the trash can.

if it would be possible to do it over BTC, I'd do it..

I edited the post...sry.

yes i understand. but why would someone do it over BTC? it'll be so much slow and unacceptable for the renting entities.
it's just impossible to 'do it right' with BTC
also pls note this issue has been discussed here several times, and no one came up with a way to do it with BTC

I'm saying this would work much better as a centralized wallet service like changetip that skim the payments or withdrawals to monetize the project. You get the ICO money so I understand you wanting to pursue this direction. You could get VC funding for this biz in BTC I'm sure...maybe head that direction before you waste a lot of people's money.

Well, the point is to make it decentralized

Why? This is what I am saying...someone will do this in BTC as a biz. It will launch before you can cause it really is not that much original coding and then investors money will be wasted.

1. the coin part is the most un-original part. the computation and market and security etc. parts are the problem.
2. no one will do it for free. on zennet, being decentralized, no one takes any kind of fee. no middlemen at all.

PS note the last comment was edited

I can't see how this make any sense at all, not everything runs better or more efficient in a decentralized structure...good luck to you.

[ohad]

I can't see how this make any sense at all, not everything runs better or more efficient as a decentralized structure...good luck to you.

look again: on a centralized system, the owner will take some fee. why would a VC invest in them otherwise?
here, the system is fully decentralized, and no one takes commissions.
so, a centralized system will fail due to lack of ability to compete.

[ItsNotMe]

I can't see how this make any sense at all, not everything runs better or more efficient as a decentralized structure...good luck to you.

look again: on a centralized system, the owner will take some fee. why would a VC invest in them otherwise?
here, the system is fully decentralized, and no one takes commissions.
so, a centralized system will fail due to lack of ability to compete.

You mistakenly think price is the only way systems compete.

[ohad]

I can't see how this make any sense at all, not everything runs better or more efficient as a decentralized structure...good luck to you.

look again: on a centralized system, the owner will take some fee. why would a VC invest in them otherwise?
here, the system is fully decentralized, and no one takes commissions.
so, a centralized system will fail due to lack of ability to compete.

You mistakenly think price is the only way systems compete.

ok, give me another reason.

[ItsNotMe]

I can't see how this make any sense at all, not everything runs better or more efficient as a decentralized structure...good luck to you.

look again: on a centralized system, the owner will take some fee. why would a VC invest in them otherwise?
here, the system is fully decentralized, and no one takes commissions.
so, a centralized system will fail due to lack of ability to compete.

You mistakenly think price is the only way systems compete.

ok, give me another reason.

service, marketability, market presence...ect.