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Author Topic: The bitcoin police  (Read 2619 times)
Blinken
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March 23, 2012, 02:53:17 PM
 #1

Now that Tradehill is bankrupt due to chargebacks and Mt. Gox is freezing accounts left and right because they have decided that they are going to punish the thieves they have identified by seizing their money, we are back to square one: how to turn dollars into bitcoins?

Basically what this comes down to a problem of the world police (ie bankers, as embodied by the fed) tracking and controlling monetary transfers. Note that Iran has recently been locked out of SWIFT, the international money transfer clearing house. Such organizations are supposed to be politically neutral, but obviously this is not the case.

Let's be frank about the goals of the new world state. The controllers want to:

   (1) identify you, preferably by DNA
   (2) know where you live, so they can arrest you easily if they need to
   (3) decide whether you are a good or bad person (a complex decision requiring a lot of data)
   (4) take away all your money and belongings if you are "bad"

So, we are not talking about a free world where the state protects citizens from each other. We are talking about an oppressive world where the state decides whether you are good or bad and tries to control every aspect of your life and behavior regardless of how it might affect other people. Control starts with your money. That Mt. Gox is requiring ID is a fundamental breach of the whole basis of the bitcoin system which is to remain anonymous. Mt. Gox is essentially no different than any bank which is doing the same thing: trying to control you by controlling your money.

How can we re-assert freedom? The answer is clear: control our own money ownership and transfers.

Bitcoin is only part of the solution. We now have an anonymous scrip system that can substitute for money. What we need is a way to convert money (tradable commodities with intrinsic worth) back and forth from the anonymous scrip system. To do this we need an anonymous peer-to-peer network that facilitates buying and selling of goods, commodities and securities. In other words we basically need a way to anonymize banking and commodity dealing.

This would not be necessary if banks were open, unregulated businesses, but since 1934 this has not been the case in the United States. Banks are now essentially an arm of the state, required to collaborate with the state in their police work. This control extends to the tiniest detail. For example, US banks are required to record the identity of anyone, including social security number, holding a safe deposit box at the bank.

The only way out of this is to create anonymous, peer-to-peer software allowing private individuals to act as bankers and commodity dealers. By doing this we can create a free banking system, and thereby freedom from the emerging world state.


Bitcoin ♦♦♦ Trust in Mathematics, Not Bankers ♦♦♦
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DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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March 23, 2012, 02:57:42 PM
 #2

The fiat -> coinz link will always be tough.

The good news is that if Bitcoin is successful over a long enough time period that link becomes less important.
Blitz­
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"Cut Your Loose"


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March 23, 2012, 03:10:03 PM
 #3

The fiat -> coinz link will always be tough.

The good news is that if Bitcoin is successful over a long enough time period that link becomes less important.
Now the bad news is, in order for Bitcoin to become successful, people will most likely need to acquire some that way.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
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Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem


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March 23, 2012, 03:13:10 PM
 #4

Removing the banks from the system is one of our top priorities.

I can tell you were working on alternative payment options that dont require ID and dont require banks or accounts.

Not just in the USA, almost every country in the world.

Stay tuned...

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
Blinken
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March 23, 2012, 03:23:09 PM
 #5

Further details on peer-to-peer buying and selling software.

To repeat the above: we need an ability to buy and sell commodities and securities on an anonymous peer-to-peer network. This is the missing piece which will enable an explosion of bitcoin use.

I should be able to start my software, offer cash or gold for bitcoins, have others see my offer and respond, then mail/courier my cash or meet in person with the counter party to complete the trade.

We can kind of do this with bulletin boards. An offer can be posted to the boards such as trading boards on this forum. The problem is that a text offer on a bulletin board is unstructured. The advantage of peer-to-peer software is that structured offers can be made and conducted in regular way without having to free-form it every time.

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evoorhees
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March 23, 2012, 03:26:35 PM
 #6

Mt. Gox is essentially no different than any bank which is doing the same thing: trying to control you by controlling your money.


Not true at all. Mt.Gox is not subsidized via force through the FDIC, nor is it privy to privileged  borrowing from the central bank, nor does it exist upon a fractional reserve lending system.

You can also be sure that Gox would prefer not to know anything about you, but feels compelled to follow AML and KYC laws because it is the highest profile bitcoin business (and I agree with them - it'd be extremely foolish for Gox to try and skirt the law, however asinine the law may be).

You're not forced to use Gox if you care highly about your privacy. You don't have a right to use their private system unless they permit you to, and they permit it based on requisite information.

I'd like to see exchanges which skirt the law, and don't ask for any ID... but Gox should not be the one to do it. It's far too vulnerable in its core Bitcoin position.

Strategically speaking, Gox needs to resist stirring up trouble, so that others may
Blinken
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March 23, 2012, 05:03:22 PM
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Mt. Gox is essentially no different than any bank which is doing the same thing: trying to control you by controlling your money.


Not true at all. Mt.Gox is not subsidized via force through the FDIC, nor is it privy to privileged  borrowing from the central bank, nor does it exist upon a fractional reserve lending system.

You can also be sure that Gox would prefer not to know anything about you, but feels compelled to follow AML and KYC laws because it is the highest profile bitcoin business (and I agree with them - it'd be extremely foolish for Gox to try and skirt the law, however asinine the law may be).

You're not forced to use Gox if you care highly about your privacy. You don't have a right to use their private system unless they permit you to, and they permit it based on requisite information.

I'd like to see exchanges which skirt the law, and don't ask for any ID... but Gox should not be the one to do it. It's far too vulnerable in its core Bitcoin position.

Strategically speaking, Gox needs to resist stirring up trouble, so that others may

Any organization, including Mt. Gox, that collaborates with state-sponsored efforts to collect identification, freeze assets or otherwise serve property-related warrants is the enemy of a free world.

This is a battle of principles and ideals and we shall know our friends as those who uphold and personify those ideals without compromise.


Bitcoin ♦♦♦ Trust in Mathematics, Not Bankers ♦♦♦
Polvos
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March 23, 2012, 06:12:09 PM
 #8


Any organization, including Mt. Gox, that collaborates with state-sponsored efforts to collect identification, freeze assets or otherwise serve property-related warrants is the enemy of a free world.


^^This

Where they see a crime I only see a transaction. Why do I have to trust Slush or Zhoutong words in a forum? What would happen if Obama, Sarkozy etc. declares Bitcoin a terrorist currency and request a list of users? What if Japan can't afford the Fukushima nuclear disaster and claims for a national assets freezing?

guruvan
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ShastaFarEye Prospectors mazaclub & mazacha.in


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March 23, 2012, 06:19:29 PM
 #9

I'd like to see exchanges which skirt the law, and don't ask for any ID... but Gox should not be the one to do it. It's far too vulnerable in its core Bitcoin position.

Here's one for you http://icbit.se  Smiley
Quote
Also, ICBIT is not a place for money laundering, so we are not going to enforce any AML measures like ID verification requirement.

This is one of my favorite bitcoin lines yet.

Mine at the Maza Club! with ShastaFarEye Prospectors! Mazacoin PPS & P2pool mining, and more services coming soon!
Maza Means Money! Check yours at the mazacha.in!

Please contact me  on my  OTC registered GPG (A54E87F2) Key's email address or guruvan@shastafareye.net  and encrypt all correspondence.
acoindr
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March 23, 2012, 07:21:56 PM
 #10

Further details on peer-to-peer buying and selling software.

To repeat the above: we need an ability to buy and sell commodities and securities on an anonymous peer-to-peer network. This is the missing piece which will enable an explosion of bitcoin use.

I should be able to start my software, offer cash or gold for bitcoins, have others see my offer and respond, then mail/courier my cash or meet in person with the counter party to complete the trade.

We can kind of do this with bulletin boards. An offer can be posted to the boards such as trading boards on this forum. The problem is that a text offer on a bulletin board is unstructured. The advantage of peer-to-peer software is that structured offers can be made and conducted in regular way without having to free-form it every time.


I believe you're looking for this: http://bitcoin-otc.com/vieworderbook.php

Any organization, including Mt. Gox, that collaborates with state-sponsored efforts to collect identification, freeze assets or otherwise serve property-related warrants is the enemy of a free world.

This is a battle of principles and ideals and we shall know our friends as those who uphold and personify those ideals without compromise.

I believe you're well intended but short-sighted.
wareen
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March 23, 2012, 08:26:36 PM
 #11

Any organization, including Mt. Gox, that collaborates with state-sponsored efforts to collect identification, freeze assets or otherwise serve property-related warrants is the enemy of a free world.

Yes, just as the perfect is the enemy of the good.

This is a battle of principles and ideals and we shall know our friends as those who uphold and personify those ideals without compromise.

Although I'm all for idealistic principles, I don't think it's a wise decision to limit your friends in that way. We're a small community and we'll need all the help we can get to make Bitcoin succeed for a world with more freedom for all mankind.

Concerning the relationship between Bitcoin and the fiat world, I'd suggest more of an embrace, extend & extinguish kind of strategy Wink
nybble41
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March 23, 2012, 08:50:05 PM
 #12

The only way out of this is to create anonymous, peer-to-peer software allowing private individuals to act as bankers and commodity dealers. By doing this we can create a free banking system, and thereby freedom from the emerging world state.

It rather sounds like you're describing http://bitcoin-otc.com/, a person-to-person trading site with a secure pseudonymous reputation system based on OpenPGP signatures.
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