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Author Topic: Printing bitcoins : could it work?  (Read 14041 times)
em3rgentOrdr
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September 14, 2010, 09:24:31 PM
 #81

What about Printable RFID Tags with printable transistors that can store, read, and write data:

http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2010-03/cheap-plastic-rfid-tags-promise-replace-bar-codes

cheap...currently 3 cents each, possibly as low as 1 cent each:


and flexible too Smiley


Or instead just use good old RIFD tags with really cheap embedded memory chips inside of a hard plastic, cardboard, or even paper?


"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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September 14, 2010, 10:12:42 PM
 #82

In the event of war with the use of EMP generators I would prefer non-electronic storage method.

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em3rgentOrdr
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September 14, 2010, 11:19:22 PM
 #83

In the event of war with the use of EMP generators I would prefer non-electronic storage method.

Of course yes, you might want to print a physical copy of your wallet to paper for long term storage, but i think the main topic of this thread is for printing bitcoin notes for day-to-day person-to-person exchanges without having to carry around your gaget or be connected to the network, NOT necessarily long-term storage.  People currently don't carry around cash for long term storage...they just keep enough money in their pocket to handle day-to-day person-to-person transactions...they don't keep their whole life savings as cash inside their wallet.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
em3rgentOrdr
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September 14, 2010, 11:40:43 PM
 #84

I was just brainstorming now thinking outside the box: maybe instead of thinking that we have to keep all the code inside one piece of paper, maybe we should be thinking about a printed coding scheme that uses one or more of the following operations:
  • split the printed code in half when making a transaction
  • modify the printed code when making a transaction
  • append more code to the printed code when making a transaction
  • destroy and recreate the printed code when making a transaction
  • having two pieces of paper with different printed codes for each note

Of course I didn't give any solutions here...just some brainstorming in case this sparks some other ideas the clever people out there on the bitcoin forum...

Also, what about the idea of using self-destroying codes somehow to prevent double spending.  Maybe volatile RFID memory that when scanned gets erased.  Or maybe some special ink that changes its chemical properties when exposed to certain light, causing the code to get erased when scanned.  Or maybe some online database that self-destructs when the url is accessed (such as my 10BTC wallet file I stored on-line as a self-destructing message whose url I encoded in a QRcode...that 10BTC wallet is still up for grabs Smiley ).  Or maybe using some expiration date scheme for each note...if we have short-life span notes then that means it is less likely for those double spending in its lifetime.  For instance, I just stumbled upon Vansih - Self Destructing Digital Data which will use on line Distrusted Hash Tables to store an encrypted message and key which will decay in a specified amount of time, say 8 hours.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
theymos
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October 02, 2010, 02:19:09 AM
 #85

You could print out the public/private keys, but send your coins to that key with a special transaction that also requires a password to claim (done securely with the hash functions and a salt). Then tell the recipient the password orally. An attacker needs to both hear the password component and scan the key component.

You wouldn't want to use just a password because your transaction would then be vulnerable to MITM attacks.

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October 02, 2010, 03:25:58 AM
 #86

You could print out the public/private keys, but send your coins to that key with a special transaction that also requires a password to claim (done securely with the hash functions and a salt). Then tell the recipient the password orally. An attacker needs to both hear the password component and scan the key component.

You wouldn't want to use just a password because your transaction would then be vulnerable to MITM attacks.

Might work for major transactions, but can you see yourself doing this in the checkout line at Kroger?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 02, 2010, 04:59:21 AM
 #87

Might work for major transactions, but can you see yourself doing this in the checkout line at Kroger?

People already use PIN entry screens for debit cards, which is pretty much the same.

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leryn17
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November 12, 2010, 06:10:32 AM
 #88

Some random Friday afternoon brainstorming: could you print out bitcoins to function as user-created paper money?




I haven't tried printing coins. But I think, printing bitcoins will probably work. It is possible to identify it as the user-created paper money.

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November 15, 2010, 09:52:42 PM
 #89

Why print something when digital is the way to go?
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November 15, 2010, 11:03:05 PM
 #90

Why print something when digital is the way to go?

I have a book sitting on my bookshelf that is 200 years old. Do you think you will still be able to read your chosen digital format in 200 years?
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November 15, 2010, 11:44:45 PM
 #91

I have a book sitting on my bookshelf that is 200 years old. Do you think you will still be able to read your chosen digital format in 200 years?

Indeed.

Furthermore, all known digital media -- magnetic tape, magneto-optical, CD, DVD, hard drive, flash drive -- deteriorates over time.  While many of us old codgers have 20-year-old hard drives that still work, your "average" media can start losing data in under 10 years.

Machine-readable, printed material is far more durable than that.

Jeff Garzik, bitcoin core dev team and BitPay engineer; opinions are my own, not my employer.
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November 16, 2010, 12:10:31 AM
 #92

Why print something when digital is the way to go?

I have a book sitting on my bookshelf that is 200 years old. Do you think you will still be able to read your chosen digital format in 200 years?

Do you have any 200-year-old bank notes? If you do, would they still be honored? I can't even keep current bills in my wallet for long. If you want long term storage, convert to something you feel is likely to retain value (nothing is guaranteed). This is currency, not artifacts or knowledge. It's supposed to be used.

In the case of some war involving EMP, many smaller electronics should survive. Even so, if you're worried about that, you should stock up on things like food, medical supplies, and beer. That's what what people will want when the lights go out.
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November 16, 2010, 12:43:50 AM
 #93

In the case of some war involving EMP, many smaller electronics should survive. Even so, if you're worried about that, you should stock up on things like food, medical supplies, and beer. That's what what people will want when the lights go out.

You should be doing that anyway, if you have the funds to risk in investments, you should be trying to limit your risks of personal loss in the unlikely event of a social crisis before placing any funds at risk for a retirement.  Even the bible talks about this in many places.  It's so central to the Mormans' religious interpretation that households are obligated to stock up for a year for their entire family, so as not to be a burden upon the community in the event of social collapse.  Morman churches usually have a collective food pantry controlled by the head of the local church (bishop?) to cover this obligation concerning the missionaries (mostly young men in college) who are no longer a part of their parents' household and not yet at the point in life to establish their own household.

Mormans take the passage, "A fool spends all that he has, but the storehouses of the wise are filled with choice food and oil" very seriously.  Considering that they are the only denomination to have experienced a real war with the US Government at any point in history, they might have something to contribute to plans for a future that that same government goes mad.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
em3rgentOrdr
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November 16, 2010, 11:41:06 PM
 #94

As has been mentioned by many bitcoiners several times in this thread, why bother printing bitcoins, when the future of payment will be on your cell phone?  From http://www.pcworld.com/article/210735/android_23_will_do_mobile_payments_and_lots_of_bump.html:

Quote
Android will soon support mobile payments (starting with Android 2.3), and some future Android phones--the Nexus S might be the first--will contain NFC (near field communication) chips. NFC chips can effectively turn your smartphone into a credit card of sorts by broadcasting data to other NFC-speaking machines. For example, you would be able to walk into a store, "bump" your phone on a NFC sensor there, and pay for your goods without having to pull out a credit card or cash. Some retailers may start accepting smartphone payments as early as next year.

So it seems that it may not necessarily be terribly important to have to print bitcoins anyway.  Maybe someone can write a cellphone app to handle bitcoin payments via bumping?

Any thoughts?

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
Anonymous
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November 17, 2010, 12:07:07 AM
 #95

Why print something when digital is the way to go?

I have a book sitting on my bookshelf that is 200 years old. Do you think you will still be able to read your chosen digital format in 200 years?

Do you have any 200-year-old bank notes? If you do, would they still be honored? I can't even keep current bills in my wallet for long. If you want long term storage, convert to something you feel is likely to retain value (nothing is guaranteed). This is currency, not artifacts or knowledge. It's supposed to be used.

In the case of some war involving EMP, many smaller electronics should survive. Even so, if you're worried about that, you should stock up on things like food, medical supplies, and beer. That's what what people will want when the lights go out.

We use plastic notes here.  Tongue

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November 17, 2010, 12:51:57 AM
 #96

We use plastic notes here.  Tongue

They'll be cabon nanofiber notes in 200 years. Or bitcoins. Either way your plastic will be worthless. What were we talking about?
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November 17, 2010, 01:49:43 AM
 #97

We use plastic notes here.  Tongue

They'll be cabon nanofiber notes in 200 years. Or bitcoins. Either way your plastic will be worthless. What were we talking about?

I prefer Post-it for my notes.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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