I am reversing my view on anonymity.

[cbeast]

Anonymous payments over the internet is a powerful and dangerous invention. In the past I have likened it to Plutonium in how dangerous it can be. People can use it to collect ransom for only threatening to do terrorist acts and get away with it. Anonymous payments will support kidnappers and assassins. Even children could learn to become terrorists and make better money that peddling dope. If you have a family, anonymous electronic payments are terrifying. But there is something even more threatening to our civilization.

Surveillance technology is getting very powerful. Unless you are a hermit and pee in bottles your whole life, you will be recorded. Cameras and other surveillance equipment can recognize your face, gait, smell, and thermal image. You will be tracked by someone. Maybe not the state, but someone. This is the genie that is out of the bottle that is the biggest threat. Information about you can be used to control your every move. You will always be under the threat of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is just as sinister as an anonymous payment system, but the two are actually opposite sides of the same coin. One counters the other. Information can be disseminated openly and not be just accessible by statists. Anonymous payments are the necessary evil to counter surveillance technology.

[Scott J]

It would help to give more information.

For example, posting a copy of your passport would give a clear indication of which side of the fence you are on...

[cbeast]

I accidentally posted before finishing.

[ForgottenPassword]

People can use it to collect ransom for only threatening to do terrorist acts and get away with it. Anonymous payments will support kidnappers and assassins. Even children could learn to become terrorists and make better money that peddling dope

You can do all of these things without anonymous payments or even being anonymous. We all knew who Osama Bin Laden was for over 10 years before they got him. The heads of the largest drug cartels in the world are all well known but are too powerful to even attempt to go after.

Additionally criminals already have access to "anonymous" payment systems that far superior than ones we could even imagine. PayPal's office in Romania was used to launder $300 million a year for a crime syndicate who had corrupted and threatened employees who worked there, and no arrests have been made since it was found out. The only thing that anonymous payments via Bitcoin (which BTW I do not consider to exist yet as every system that has tried to achieve this thus far has serious issues) has done is give it to the average Joe, the big criminals already had it.

[franky1]

when it comes to businesses handling customers funds, products, etc. these businesses should not be anonymous.
when it comes to customers moving large sums of funds, then privacy to some extent should be met with equal precaution of mis-use of funds.

but when normal average joe customers are just spening standard income amounts/pocketchange. then privacy should remain with that person.

i kind of liked the fiat regulations that only really needed ID checks for amounts over $1000. not the current envisions of bit licence that force every bitcoin business to request full biography requirements for using just a couple hundred in fiat or a single satoshi simply because a customer 'might be' a resident of new york

[cbeast]

People can use it to collect ransom for only threatening to do terrorist acts and get away with it. Anonymous payments will support kidnappers and assassins. Even children could learn to become terrorists and make better money that peddling dope

You can do all of these things without anonymous payments or even being anonymous. We all knew who Osama Bin Laden was for over 10 years before they got him. The heads of the largest drug cartels in the world are all well known but are too powerful to even attempt to go after.

Additionally criminals already have access to "anonymous" payment systems that far superior than ones we could even imagine. PayPal's office in Romania was used to launder $300 million a year for a crime syndicate who had corrupted and threatened employees who worked there, and no arrests have been made since it was found out. The only thing that anonymous payments via Bitcoin (which BTW I do not consider to exist yet as every system that has tried to achieve this thus far has serious issues) has done is give it to the average Joe, the big criminals already had it.

There's a difference between can't and won't. Criminals can be tracked. Before Bitcoin, if you pay their ransom, you follow the money either electronically or at the drop point. Bitcoin can be tracked when it is spent. We don't catch criminals because it isn't profitable for the military/police industrial complex. Currently victims can protect themselves by hiring private investigators, but dark technologies will make it impossible to ever catch criminals. Because there is no way to catch criminals, there is no justification to pay for police protection.

[ForgottenPassword]

There's a difference between can't and won't. Criminals can be tracked. Before Bitcoin, if you pay their ransom, you follow the money either electronically or at the drop point. Bitcoin can be tracked when it is spent. We don't catch criminals because it isn't profitable for the military/police industrial complex. Currently victims can protect themselves by hiring private investigators, but dark technologies will make it impossible to ever catch criminals. Because there is no way to catch criminals, there is no justification to pay for police protection.

Plenty of ways to catch a criminal without following a money trail. Take a look at Ross Ulbricht. In fact I would go as far to say that in the majority of cases LE do not use a money trail to catch criminals. Large criminals already have access to things like offshore accounts and corrupt organisations that'll handle their dirty money for them. Heck according to experts most cybercriminals aren't using bitcoin because there is very little reason to change when you have something that already works.

[inBitweTrust]

Anonymous payments are the necessary evil to counter surveillance technology.

Correct. Psychopaths and control freaks will always gravitate to positions of "leadership" either directly or through deception. Bitcoin just like cryptography represents a shift in power where a few cannot control and leverage these powerful tools which control our lives against us. The anarchistic principle behind bitcoin is about leveraging and distributing these power dynamics to the people. With 1-4% psychopathy and sociopathy rates we want to empower as many of the remaining society with means of protecting themselves.

Currently victims can protect themselves by hiring private investigators, but dark technologies will make it impossible to ever catch criminals.

This is false. Serious criminals can always be caught with sting operations and other means. What Bitcoin represents is making it more difficult and less profitable for governments to enforce fines and taxes against the populace. What this does is direct state or private companies to focus their attention of actually investigating crimes where there are victims instead victimless crimes where there are large profits to be realized.(asset forfeiture, fines, ect...)

[cbeast]

Apparently we can't talk about any negative aspects of Bitcoin as it is placed in a non-bitcoin section. This forum has gone to hell. I have had many posts deleted that were very relevant.

[ForgottenPassword]

Apparently we can't talk about any negative aspects of Bitcoin as it is placed in a non-bitcoin section. This forum has gone to hell. I have had many posts deleted that were very relevant.

Have a look on http://bitcointa.lk
It's a mirror of the forum, it should have your deleted posts provided they weren't deleted too quick.

[inBitweTrust]

Apparently we can't talk about any negative aspects of Bitcoin as it is placed in a non-bitcoin section. This forum has gone to hell. I have had many posts deleted that were very relevant.

Meh... this is actually a "Politics & Society" discussion. Technically all of the comments posted in "Bitcoin Discussion" so I view that section as a temporary catchall where posts can be directed out of for organizational purposes later. (although I think mods should have left your post in "Bitcoin Discussion" a bit longer.)