Bitcoin Forum
June 21, 2024, 05:12:07 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Three Men Mine $200,000 In Bitcoin Every Month  (Read 11920 times)
zhinkk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 266
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 03:29:16 AM
 #41

Those three guys got it good. I wish I was an early adopter.
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484
Merit: 1026

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 04:30:49 AM
Last edit: August 16, 2014, 04:45:08 AM by CoinHoarder
 #42

#1 - The centralization of PoW mining will become more and more centralized over time, because big operations such as this will make the little guys unprofitable and therefore push them out of the market.
#2 - The huge amount of electricity that is wasted needlessly with PoW.

You've managed to fail twice in a row. Good job!

At least I'm not a fanboi that only cares about his special interests and can admit Bitcoin has flaws.  Tongue

You think Bitcoin's PoW is a flaw? It's one of it's greatest strengths and quite possibly the most important feature.

Yes, it is a flaw when compared to something like Bitshare's delegated proof of stake, which has fixed the "nothing at stake" issue with other PoS coins.. among other things. Seeing as though DPoS uses a fraction of the energy to protect the BitsharesX block chain just as securely, this is a vast improvement in and of itself. Furthermore, using dPoS you can increase block speeds to 10 to 30 seconds without seeing the problems that you would see using PoW (stales, forks, etcetra.) http://bitshares.org/delegated-proof-of-stake/

Unless large miners are getting discounts on electricity, they really have no advantage over smaller miners.
You actually can get discounts on electricity if you use a lot of it from certain companies, but there are other ways they can gain advantage.

Obviously someone setting up a large farm such as this has pretty deep pockets. Someone with deep pockets can order many more mining rigs than joe blow, which reduces his percentage of the network, which reduces joe blow's profits. This could be done (as we are seeing) to an extent that joe blow will never break even (in BTC... that's all we care about). Do you think joe blow will continue buying mining rigs if he can't break even? They can push him out of the market. The fact that most mining manufacturers offer bulk pricing only exemplifies this.

Another way they could gain an advantage is by investing money in manufacturing their own ASIC mining chips, PCBs, and assembly lines. In that scenario they would be paying a fraction of the price for a mining rig that runs at the same speed as joe blow (even more so than bulk discounts). Which allows them to purchase more mining rigs, further reducing the cost of the mining rigs, and therefore further reduce joe blow's portion of the network.

Although, large farms do have additional expenses that a smaller miner doesn't need to worry about (space, cooling, power requirements, upkeep).
That is true, but if they can achieve a certain percentage of the network they will easily operate at a profit. Especially when they are getting the mining rigs much cheaper than average consumers via bulk discounts or manufacturing their own. If it wasn't wildly profitable, why would large manufacturers like KNC, Avalon, Bitfury be making these massive farms in the first place? I know how much of a headache a large farm is to setup and run.. I find it hard to believe they would do it if it wasn't highly profitable.

So, I'm wondering how large mining farms will make "little guys unprofitable". As long as "little guys" have access to the most recent hardware, they will be just fine.
Because of the reasons I've stated above. Sure, the little guys have access to the most recent hardware, but they are paying much more for that same hardware than the large farms and manufacturers are paying. They are at a disadvantage from the get go. To make things worse, a lot of the little guys are closing up shop and moving on. I mean.. if you bought mining hardware and you lost a lot of Bitcoins doing so (IE. did not break even), would you keep buying mining hardware? It is still profitable for large farms and manufacturers, but not so much for the little guys. In my ASIC investments, NONE of them have broken even, and I know I'm not alone. I will never buy a Bitcoin ASIC again in my life.

Saying electricity is "wasted" due to PoW is like saying you "wasted" gas driving to work today.
Yes, I would consider both of those processes wasteful of natural resources, and potentially the downfall of humanity living on planet earth at some unknown point of time in the future. If gasoline engines weren't such a bad thing for the environment and wasteful of natural resources, then why is there so much effort being made to move beyond gasoline with the use of alternative fuels? Do you not understand how many natural resources are wasted during the process of generating electricity, how the environment is negatively impacted while doing so, and why using less electricity is beneficial to that problem?

Bitcoin is useful and the PoW is required for it to function. So far no other solutions have been able to take a meaningful market share away from Bitcoin, for good reason.

There haven't really been any good solutions to PoW until very recently. There have been different variants of PoS that all suffer from various flaws. Only until recently have most of those flaws been fixed. A change like this (from Bitcoin to something else) will take time. The use of gasoline is actually a great analogy, I am glad you brought it up.

There are issues with the use of Gasoline just like there are issues with Bitcoin, both are not perfect for a few similar reasons (harmful to the environment and waste of natural resources.) Yet, Gasoline and Bitcoin will be around for a long time because of the infrastructure that has been built by both of them. In gasoline's case there are billions of vehicles, power tools, planes, etcetra that use it... to switch to an alternative we would need to rebuild these or design and build new ones. In Bitcoin's case the exchanges, ATMs, payment processors, etcetra are already setup to work with Bitcoin... to work with another crypto currency would require reprogramming just about every core service involved in the Bitcoin ecosystem. Costs are another thing holding gasoline and Bitcoin alternatives.. it is expensive to develop alternative technologies.

The advancement in technology is still being improved upon, but better technological alternatives certainly already exist for both gasoline and Bitcoin. It will take time, how long is anyone's guess, but I am certain that both will be uprooted as the king of fuel (gasoline) and the king of crypto currencies (Bitcoin) at some point in the future. Gasoline is definitely not the only example, all technologies come and go as better technologies replace the less adequate technologies. The transitions from VHS to DVD to Blu-ray took a lot of time. Along with the transition from Records to Tapes to CDs to MP3s to FLACs took a lot of time. I could go on and on with these examples..

Notice the more technological advancements happen at a quicker pace.. I don't see why this couldn't be applicable to Bitcoin as well. It is after all much cheaper to reprogram something than to rebuild all the vehicles, power tools, etcetra in the world. Furthermore, gasoline has many other factors why it is probably the best option for the foreseeable future, but Bitcoin has less so.

I have no idea what "special interests" you are talking about.

I just assumed by your reply that you could think through the above reasoning yourself and understand it, yet still chose to call me out for being wrong because you own a lot of Bitcoins and want to protect your nest egg. Many people (individuals, companies, and corporations) are heavily invested in the current system (gasoline and Bitcoin), and profit from it. They are hesitant to allow change and will spend any amount of time, effort, and money that it takes to thwart the opposition because it is how they sustain their lifestyles and provide for their families. I apologize if my assumption was incorrect. If my reasoning is wrong, then please explain how I am wrong. Sometimes I do a horrible job of conveying exactly what I am trying to say, even though it makes perfect sense in my head. Smiley
johnyj
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012


Beyond Imagination


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 04:36:19 AM
 #43

Just like other industry, when they are not profitable anymore, the operation will be disclosed to public. When they can still make good return, all is secret

While private miners could pay for those electricity bill and hold the coins, the rent and electricity cost for mining farms must be covered by selling some of the coins, these farms will all add to the sell pressure on the market

Leina
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 152
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 04:47:41 AM
 #44

ASIC mining has not being profitable for the last 8 months.

How much does it cost for them to mine $200,000 worth of bitcoin every month?
Coinhunter32
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 61
Merit: 10


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 07:20:31 AM
 #45

Man, That's pretty insane. I felt pretty rich just mining with my 1.6/THs Cointerra. These guys are crazy to even attempt this, with the difficulty rising day by day.
Sheldor333
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 08:45:57 AM
 #46

They started early, had money to do so and how they are enjoying and picking the fruits of their labor. It's just a business opportunity for them, that's why they don't have much bitcoin with them. Too bad about that, hope that changes. It's not all in mining.

reannypleas
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 152
Merit: 100



View Profile
August 16, 2014, 08:58:40 AM
 #47

Big farms can not compete with small miners, as small miners can afford to mine at a loss just to support the network. At the end of the year or early next year it will be pretty hard to be profitable even for the big farms if the difficulty keeps increasing. But many small miners can just keep running their one unit

Justin00
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 910
Merit: 1000


★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 09:02:45 AM
 #48

Doubt the big farms care about supporting the network... Plus they will sell off their hardware to smaller players.. thus supporting the network.

Curious how many individuals run their units at a loss purely to support the network anyways ?

juicyjuice87
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 490
Merit: 250



View Profile
August 16, 2014, 10:13:25 AM
 #49

So am I right when I say eventually only a few people/companys will be mining btc thus making it more or less centralised?
BADecker (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3822
Merit: 1373


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 10:28:42 AM
 #50

Doubt the big farms care about supporting the network... Plus they will sell off their hardware to smaller players.. thus supporting the network.

Curious how many individuals run their units at a loss purely to support the network anyways ?

New solar panel material 19% efficient.

http://www.businessinsider.com/key-to-making-solar-panels-cheap-2014-8

Smiley

Cure your cancer at home. Ivermectin, fenbendazole, methylene blue, and hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) are chief among parasite drugs. Find out that all disease is based in parasites or pollution, and what you can easily do about it - https://www.huldaclark.com/, https://thedrardisshow.com/, https://thehighwire.com/.
phlogistonq
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 159
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 11:39:04 AM
 #51

Obviously, if mining is not profitable, which seems plausible, then WHY? Even if they are taking the gamble that the rate will rise beyond break-even in the future (someone mentioned $717 before) , it would be easily more profitable to just buy BTC for the same investment at the current rate (not to mention the effort).

The only reasonable explanation is that there is something we don't know.

I think it is this:
They made a secret deal with an ASIC manufacturer: They buy non-profitable ASICs, and share the profit. They can pocket that money themselves and maintain the unprofitable mining farm. ASIC manufacturer is happy to have a customer for nonprofitable equipment, and therefore willing to sacrifice some profit. Mining operation doesn't care it is buying ASICs at a high price, because they will get a fraction of that margin. They show off on social media to attract more investments, with which they buy more unprofitable ASICs -> more money for themselves via the secret deal.

Eventually, the whole operation will collapse as investors realise their investment doesn't yield sufficient returns, but the miners don't care a they already made a profit for themselves.
LiteCoinGuy
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148
Merit: 1011


In Satoshi I Trust


View Profile WWW
August 16, 2014, 12:52:31 PM
 #52

very noisy...but for a chinese a good work  Lips sealed

Sheldor333
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 04:33:28 PM
 #53

Obviously, if mining is not profitable, which seems plausible, then WHY? Even if they are taking the gamble that the rate will rise beyond break-even in the future (someone mentioned $717 before) , it would be easily more profitable to just buy BTC for the same investment at the current rate (not to mention the effort).

The only reasonable explanation is that there is something we don't know.

I think it is this:
They made a secret deal with an ASIC manufacturer: They buy non-profitable ASICs, and share the profit. They can pocket that money themselves and maintain the unprofitable mining farm. ASIC manufacturer is happy to have a customer for nonprofitable equipment, and therefore willing to sacrifice some profit. Mining operation doesn't care it is buying ASICs at a high price, because they will get a fraction of that margin. They show off on social media to attract more investments, with which they buy more unprofitable ASICs -> more money for themselves via the secret deal.

Eventually, the whole operation will collapse as investors realise their investment doesn't yield sufficient returns, but the miners don't care a they already made a profit for themselves.
I don't know if that is the case. Still if they make 200,000$ a month and pay an electricity bill of about 60,000$ I see a lot of profit there even when you include renting the space. Still would need more info to be sure if there are some hidden costs.

fusioncoins
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 590
Merit: 500


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 04:42:13 PM
 #54

Pics are amazing.
I'd love to see their electricity bill.

Altminer79
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 76
Merit: 10


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 04:46:55 PM
 #55

Most likely in a year, they'll be losing profit due to the difficulty rising up so fast. Small miners will have an advantage here, we can just keep on running ours even with our loss. But these guys are most likely
going to lose profit even more. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Koko
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 294
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 04:55:20 PM
 #56

Most likely in a year, they'll be losing profit due to the difficulty rising up so fast. Small miners will have an advantage here, we can just keep on running ours even with our loss. But these guys are most likely
going to lose profit even more. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

When you're a small miner it's also easier to upgrade/sell your old hardware. No giant piles of junk to worry about.
valvalis
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784
Merit: 500


DeFixy.com - The future of Decentralization


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 05:19:53 PM
 #57

Shit, I feel hopeless after see those rigs. Cry
Who's got a bigger capital is the person who will benefit more from bitcoin

  █▌▐█
▄██████▄▄
  ▀████████▄
     ▀███████
       ▀██████
         ▀█████
           ████
         ▄█████
       ▄█████
     ▄███████
  ▄████████▀
▀██████▀▀
  █▌▐█
..DeFiXy.......████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
███   ██████████████   ███████   █████████   ██   █████   ██████████████████   ████
.$0.50.
███████   ██   █████████   ██   ███████████   ███████████   ███████████   █████████
████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
.
.......JOIN NOW..
ajareselde
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1000

Satoshi is rolling in his grave. #bitcoin


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 05:59:16 PM
 #58

Shit, I feel hopeless after see those rigs. Cry
Who's got a bigger capital is the person who will benefit more from bitcoin

Just like everything in life, but its funny how price lowers with an increasing hashrate.
I recently watched a documentary explaining how price of diamonds is pumped by mining operation owners, and
i believe same thing is going to happen with bitcoin; first they will gain a considerable amount of hashrate controlling the inflow of new coins, and then pump the value.
Meuh6879
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1512
Merit: 1011



View Profile
August 16, 2014, 07:25:59 PM
 #59

Pics are amazing.
I'd love to see their electricity bill.

60 000 USD per month (read coindesk source).
ajareselde
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1000

Satoshi is rolling in his grave. #bitcoin


View Profile
August 16, 2014, 07:59:32 PM
 #60

Pics are amazing.
I'd love to see their electricity bill.

60 000 USD per month (read coindesk source).

Amazing...
I doubt that they made that kind of investment without carefully calculating the profit and the security of their investment.

For things like this, and this kind of moves, i seriously doubt bitcoin is going to fade away anytime soon.
Since small man is forced out from mining, i believe right now buying bitcoins directly off exchanges is the way to go.
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!