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Author Topic: Prove to me objective "rights" exist.  (Read 8638 times)
Jon
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March 26, 2012, 06:56:58 PM
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People say a man is entitled to free speech when he does not have such. He is shunned and imprisoned when he pushes his so-called "right" to ends not preferred by his government and the powers that be.  

People say a man is entitled to food when he refuses to collect it himself and the system and people that provide it can fail at anytime.

Isn't the only thing that defines a "right" is the strength and power of oneself to obtain said entitlement? Isn't a "right" void once the means to enforce it are gone?

What good is a list of human rights when the power to enforce them is easily corrupted and dissolved?

Can one only truly guarantee himself his "rights" by his own self-liberation, strength and ensured means?

To me the concept of "rights" is a spook. If one has the strength to obtain something, they are entitled to it. If they are too weak to obtain an end, then it is not their right. To claim otherwise, is only a plea of faith: pure religion and dogma.

The reality seems to be that men will have power of varying capacities and that no moral dogma can make it otherwise: One can only continue to be vigilant. There are no guarantees or inherent entitlements besides the basic organic powers we are born with.

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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March 26, 2012, 08:02:50 PM
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If one has the strength to obtain something, they are entitled to it. If they are too weak to obtain an end, then it is not their right.

By your logic, if the big bad government has the power to obtain tax money and make sure everyone gets food and water, then they are entitled to do so. If they are too weak to do so, then it is not their right.
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March 26, 2012, 08:09:40 PM
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If one has the strength to obtain something, they are entitled to it. If they are too weak to obtain an end, then it is not their right.

By your logic, if the big bad government has the power to obtain tax money and make sure everyone gets food and water, then they are entitled to do so. If they are too weak to do so, then it is not their right.

Yes, yes. Very good. Now you understand why I would prefer the government weaker. You prefer it stronger.

It's all preferences.

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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March 26, 2012, 09:04:27 PM
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I guess what would be helpful is if you define "objective", and "rights", and go from there.

If there is isn't a concise universal understanding of those two words and their usage, then everyone will differ in their application. Start with an axiom and go from there is what I'd suggest.

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March 26, 2012, 09:12:54 PM
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I guess what would be helpful is if you define "objective", and "rights", and go from there.

If there is isn't a concise universal understanding of those two words and their usage, then everyone will differ in their application. Start with an axiom and go from there is what I'd suggest.

Right - an entitlement of power or good.

Objective - Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. Applies to a universal human goal, that is in fact universal across all humans.

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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March 26, 2012, 09:31:34 PM
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Objective rights don't exist.  Rights are legal constructs to enable society to run more efficiently. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto_Polar

Read up on this guy - he does it better Smiley

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March 26, 2012, 09:32:41 PM
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It's all preferences.

Wow, you finally get it.  Congratulations.

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March 26, 2012, 10:01:53 PM
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Objective rights don't exist.  Rights are legal constructs to enable society to run more efficiently. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto_Polar

Read up on this guy - he does it better Smiley
So there is nothing inherently righteous about the law? It doesn't apply to you if you do not wish to follow it (assuming you have the might to evade its purported consequences)?

I am glad this is going smoothly.

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
Matthew N. Wright
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March 26, 2012, 10:03:16 PM
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Shut up, Atlas.

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March 27, 2012, 02:29:29 AM
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Objective rights don't exist.  Rights are legal constructs to enable society to run more efficiently. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto_Polar

Read up on this guy - he does it better Smiley

An author's opinion or your opinion that objective rights do not exist is subjective.  There are two ways of really looking at the world and the cosmos--man is a product of chance and natural selection or man was made in the image of God. 

If you believe rights are a legal construct only, then rights are government given and can be government taken, at any time.  If you believe in Natural Law or unalienable rights, then governments are established to safeguard those rights. 

Many classical writers and even some of the Enlightenment saw objective rights no different than the laws of the universe, mathematics, and other laws that exist whether man recognizes them or not. 

I may be ignorant of gravity but it is there; I may not want 2+2 to equal 4 but it is so...universally. 

In Orwell's 1984 the state may have convinced the populace that 2+2 can equal 6 but it does little in the way of truth. 

Think about it. 

 
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March 27, 2012, 02:48:50 AM
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I guess what would be helpful is if you define "objective", and "rights", and go from there.

If there is isn't a concise universal understanding of those two words and their usage, then everyone will differ in their application. Start with an axiom and go from there is what I'd suggest.

Right - an entitlement of power or good.

Objective - Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. Applies to a universal human goal, that is in fact universal across all humans.

At a syntactic level, subject and object are fundamentally the same.

Any two relands, x and y, must always share a common medium.  If, suppose, you were to say "x and y are absolutely different from each other," then they would still share the common medium of "absolute difference."

So, if subject and object are fundamentally the same, reaching an objective conclusion about the distribution of human rights (or lack thereof) must also include a subjective component.

If someone thinks people objectively have certain rights, then they do.  But if someone else thinks people objectively do not have rights, then they don't.  It's not either/or; it's both/and, either/or, and neither/nor (depending on who is determining).  In other words, people figure out for themselves.  Neat eh?  The principle distributes to everyone (syntactically and objectively) in that they get to choose.  And, they have their own subjective opinions about the matter.

And, if it's a computational Universe, then at the highest level I would expect a sum determination, though not necessarily a utilitarian one.

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March 27, 2012, 02:50:38 AM
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You should use "Ragnar Redbeard" as your next user name.
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March 27, 2012, 05:47:16 AM
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I guess what would be helpful is if you define "objective", and "rights", and go from there.

If there is isn't a concise universal understanding of those two words and their usage, then everyone will differ in their application. Start with an axiom and go from there is what I'd suggest.

Right - an entitlement of power or good.

Objective - Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. Applies to a universal human goal, that is in fact universal across all humans.

See above bolded areas for subjective words.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
Matthew N. Wright
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March 27, 2012, 07:25:41 AM
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You should use "Ragnar Redbeard" as your next user name.

He already had Ragnar as his last last last username.

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March 27, 2012, 09:15:00 AM
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Consider that vast majority of countries approved this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

You probably consider Newtonian physics "proven" because most physicists and a lot of other people agree it is reasonable approximation of reality. Similarly, I can easily consider universal human rights "proven" because most people agree that everyone should have these rights. IMHO it's silly to argue beyond this point, we should argue about the soundness of the human rights concept itself.

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Isn't the only thing that defines a "right" is the strength and power of oneself to obtain said entitlement? Isn't a "right" void once the means to enforce it are gone?

What good is a list of human rights when the power to enforce them is easily corrupted and dissolved?

Can one only truly guarantee himself his "rights" by his own self-liberation, strength and ensured means
Have you ever lived in totalitarian society? From my experience, I must strongly disagree with you that the rights depend on means to enforce it! I was born in Czechoslovakia, literally few kilometers from iron curtain. It was plainly impossible to use strength and power of oneself to obtain entitlements like freedom of speech, except trying to flee West and risk being shot or imprisoned plus having caused problems to whole family for the attempt. It was very important for us to have illegal broadcasts and other means of support from the West, to know that someone somewhere believes that we have these rights despite our government and law prevents us to exercise them. Radio Free Europe wasn't at all force that could enforce anything. But it accelerated the decay of communist regime to the extent that when the opportunity came, nobody wanted to defend the regime. Otherwise, whole Eastern Europe could have ended in civil war like Yugoslavia or Libya.

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March 27, 2012, 09:40:45 AM
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If I had slaves, I wouldn't want them without the freedom to live lives with some leisure. Otherwise, they aren't very productive.

Nobody's interests are served in a totalitarian society unless you want the majority of the human masses gradually made extinct. Heh, which might be an inevitable scenario.

My only point is awareness and avoiding blind trust.

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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March 27, 2012, 09:57:07 AM
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Nobody's interests are served in a totalitarian society unless you want the majority of the human masses gradually made extinct. Heh, which might be an inevitable scenario.
wrong! as long the totalitarian society 'protect' the people, and the people feel that they achieve something, the society goes happily on.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
Jon
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March 27, 2012, 09:59:16 AM
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Nobody's interests are served in a totalitarian society unless you want the majority of the human masses gradually made extinct. Heh, which might be an inevitable scenario.
wrong! as long the totalitarian society 'protect' the people, and the people feel that they achieve something, the society goes happily on.
The Soviet Union...

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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March 27, 2012, 10:40:38 AM
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Nobody's interests are served in a totalitarian society unless you want the majority of the human masses gradually made extinct. Heh, which might be an inevitable scenario.
wrong! as long the totalitarian society 'protect' the people, and the people feel that they achieve something, the society goes happily on.
The Soviet Union...
the people was not protected, or happy. Stalin was suffering from paranoia. Soviet was not the only totalitarian system:
Italy.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
Jon
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March 27, 2012, 10:42:11 AM
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Italy is a very small state. It's hardly collateral worth controlling.

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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