Justifications for Gaza

[umair127]

The IDF launched "Operation Protective Edge" on the 8th of July, more than a month ago. The operation involved shelling and a ground offensive.

More than 1800 people have died in Gaza, 3 civilians have died in Israel. 64 members of the IDF have died.

The UN estimate that more than 68% of the Palestinian dead are civilians, including 377 children and 196 women. The UN says that 2744 children have been injured - and they're referring to war wounds, not bruises. But what do these statistics mean?

Sadly, I feel that these numbers do not do justice to those dead and injured children - those children were not terrorists... perhaps their siblings or relatives may become terrorists in response to the grief they are carrying.

Children were playing on Gaza beach and were hit by a shell. They were playing on a beach. That's a disturbing mental image. When you see pictures of tiny corpses wrapped in cloth or children with shrapnel wounds and missing limbs. That is disturbing footage. And when I think of how many families in Gaza must be in anguish - how many mothers have held their baby's corpses? How many father's have lost their sons? How many children have lost their siblings? That is a disturbing reality, one which has compelled me to write this entry.

I have an 8 year old sister. If she died of an illness I would be distraught. However if she was murdered while she was playing in the park, I'm not even sure how I would feel - how can I guess how I would I feel in that situation? And I can only think that my mother would breakdown. Yet the appalling truth is that many people have numbed themselves to the suffering of the Palestinians.

I've stumbled across some deplorable justifications for the actions of the IDF in Gaza on social media and in articles. I'll run through a few and give my blunt opinion on them:

1) "Civilian casualties are a reality of warfare". These people are dressing up the phrase "shit happens". They're forgetting another reality: that Gaza is a strip of land - (hence Gaza strip) densely populated and can simply not be shelled without civilian casualties. The actions of the IDF have proven that the Israeli government are indifferent to the death of civilians in Gaza.

2) "There are far more people dying in conflicts within Arab countries such as Syria". Since when was it a contest? This opinion confuses me. It reminds of me of the debate around drug abuse, for instance heroin overdoses. Someone might say: "Well, far more people are dying from alcohol poisoning". That doesn't mean that heroin overdoses aren't an issue! What is that person suggesting: that it's worse to die from alcohol poisoning? Or maybe that alcohol poisoning is a "bigger" issue based on the number of deaths? To simply dismiss the conflict in Gaza is an insult to the civilians (many of whom were children) who have died there.

3) "The IDF's actions were justified - Hamas were firing rockets into Israel". It is true that Hamas were firing rockets into Israel. 3 Israeli citizens were killed by Hamas rockets and the lives of Israeli citizens were disrupted by rocket alarms. But does that justify the murder of 377 children? Does that justify injuring 2744 children? Can the murder of children ever be justified?? Those children weren't firing the rockets, and those injured (war wounds, not bruises) kids might not even have homes to return to... IDF shells killed those children. Was the IDF response proportionate? Does the IDF have the right to repeatedly violate UN resolutions?

A few interesting facts, people and perspectives:

The US government gave the IDF $8.5 million per day of 2013.

Gerald Kaufman - Jewish Labour MP , very heavy in his criticism of the Israeli government but not without a degree of validity

Gideon Levy - an Israeli journalist

[zolace]

What I am getting from this is a rather emotive based appeal with the assigning of guilt based on that emotive appeal (images of mothers holding baby corpses) instead of on more impartial investigative findings.

1.) I don't necessarily disagree outright, but you don't provide any specific examples or supporting evidence for the assertion and I imagine, given the emotive start to the blog piece, that we would disagree on those examples.

2.) I agree that issues of conflict and human rights abuses elsewhere should not hinder our discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict nor limit our condemnation of abuses that have taken place during it.

3.) This is the general proportionality argument, which I have never been a huge fan of / don't lean heavily on, specifically because I feel that Israel has a right to defend itself and the threat doesn't simply stem from rockets but also from the network of tunnels running into Israel. What I like to steer the proportionality argument to instead, is to examinations of specific strikes on an individual basis and the analysis of whether or not the military benefit outweighed the threat to civilian lives and in some cases it is clear that the answer to that is absolutely no (like the striking of UN schools).

[zolace]

If we are going back that far in history then I would suggest that the question itself is simply inappropriate given the convergence of multiple different independent and interrelated factors, from the Hussein-McMahon correspondences, to the Sykes-Picot secret agreement, to the Balfour Declaration, to absentee landlord purchases, Ottoman land codes, changing demographics over time, etc. There was no "first punch" in the sense that I think most people seek when it comes to explaining conflict. The physical fighting we really saw escalate in the 30's though if you don't count the Turkish-Arab conflicts (and for some reason people never seem to).

[bryant.coleman]

there are no terrorists in gaza. no one who acts in self defence is a terrorist.

Any one who launches rockets against civilian settlements is a terrorist. That includes the Hamas members, and the IDF (if they deliberately targeted the civilian areas inside Gaza).

[TheGer]

Dude Hamas on record was created by Israel to have controlled opposition. They exist to keep the area destabilized and in a state of conflict until the people there can be wiped out. 

Inhumane weapons such as depleted uranium munitions, White Phosphorous and other experimental weapons are used on the population.

Any one who launches rockets against civilian settlements is a terrorist. That includes the Hamas members, and the IDF (if they deliberately targeted the civilian areas inside Gaza).

thats not how it works, hamas get a pass because they are under occupation and israel refuses to negotiate to end that occupation and for some other reasons. google belligerent reprisal and spend few hours reading then you will understand why hamas are regarded as terrorists by only a small handful of nations.

[ajareselde]

there are no terrorists in gaza. no one who acts in self defence is a terrorist.

Any one who launches rockets against civilian settlements is a terrorist. That includes the Hamas members, and the IDF (if they deliberately targeted the civilian areas inside Gaza).

And how can one be certain whos behind every attack that is happening.

Im telling you, while two sides are fighting, the third on is standing nearby and profiting from both.
Public is easily fooled, and many countries are exploiting that fact.

[TheGer]

The World turns a blind eye to Human Rights violation inflicted on Palestinians by the Israel Government.  There is attempted genocide happening there.

there are no terrorists in gaza. no one who acts in self defence is a terrorist.

Any one who launches rockets against civilian settlements is a terrorist. That includes the Hamas members, and the IDF (if they deliberately targeted the civilian areas inside Gaza).

And how can one be certain whos behind every attack that is happening.

Im telling you, while two sides are fighting, the third on is standing nearby and profiting from both.
Public is easily fooled, and many countries are exploiting that fact.

[negafen]

The World turns a blind eye to Human Rights violation inflicted on Palestinians by the Israel Government.  There is attempted genocide happening there.

there are no terrorists in gaza. no one who acts in self defence is a terrorist.

Any one who launches rockets against civilian settlements is a terrorist. That includes the Hamas members, and the IDF (if they deliberately targeted the civilian areas inside Gaza).

And how can one be certain whos behind every attack that is happening.

Im telling you, while two sides are fighting, the third on is standing nearby and profiting from both.
Public is easily fooled, and many countries are exploiting that fact.

The world turns a blind eye on a lot of things. Why should Palestinians get special treatment?

[kuroman]

there are no terrorists in gaza. no one who acts in self defence is a terrorist.

Any one who launches rockets against civilian settlements is a terrorist. That includes the Hamas members, and the IDF (if they deliberately targeted the civilian areas inside Gaza).

Yes but you have to take into considerations a couple of things

-Hamas created/supported by Israel to take hold of Gaza Area and be the opposition to Fatah and Palestinian government so there would be no unity and no room for negotiation (and what started these events is the fact that the Palestinians made a unity government which would push Israel to the negotiation table as this move was made under the blessing of US/EU/UN)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

-The current events started with a false excuse similar to the one used by the US to invade Iraq, It shows several times, documented on videos, that the IDF target civilians and I remind you of the bloody example of the 4 kids playing in the beach that were blown to pieces (one of many)

-Palestine is under occupation, it people are suffering on a dailly basis, they harassed, kicked out of their houses, and lands and getting their goods and money stolen, when they are not being killed, I don't know what you can expect under these circumstances...

- Hamas Kills are mostly Soldiers if I remember correctly 69 / 3 where as the 1960+ Palestinians deaths are mostly civilians 80% according to UN and other ONGs

- the " terrorist death tunnel" as Israel call them, I find this reference quite funny and really sad at the same time because it reminds me of the Jews that were suffering in the Warsaw Ghetto and have to resort to the same tactic under the Nazis, yet those were "Hero tunnels" which shows the double standards here....

I mean I can go on and on, and I'm not trying to make excuses for Hamas actions, but trying to show that there is no room of comparison between what Hamas is doing and the people in power in Israel are doing

[TheGer]

That attitude is why these things go on over and over around the world.  You should be ashamed of your indifference. 

All that evil needs to triumph is that good men do nothing.  Not that you are even a good man after an ignorant comment like that.

The World turns a blind eye to Human Rights violation inflicted on Palestinians by the Israel Government.  There is attempted genocide happening there.

there are no terrorists in gaza. no one who acts in self defence is a terrorist.

Any one who launches rockets against civilian settlements is a terrorist. That includes the Hamas members, and the IDF (if they deliberately targeted the civilian areas inside Gaza).

And how can one be certain whos behind every attack that is happening.

Im telling you, while two sides are fighting, the third on is standing nearby and profiting from both.
Public is easily fooled, and many countries are exploiting that fact.

The world turns a blind eye on a lot of things. Why should Palestinians get special treatment?

[MaxwellsDemon]

Dude Hamas on record was created by Israel to have controlled opposition. They exist to keep the area destabilized and in a state of conflict until the people there can be wiped out. 

This is very very true, and it's a shame so few people understand it.
Not only was Hamas originally created by Israel, as the years go by Israel makes greater and greater efforts to strengthen Hamas and maintain its power in Gaza while weakening Fatah. This can be seen right now in Cairo: Israel is negotiating with Hamas and showing relatively great willingness to make concessions, far beyond anything given to Mahmoud Abbas during the never-ending "negotiations" with the Palestinian Authority. In fact, Israel is going out of its way to give Hamas a PR victory, at least in the eyes of Gazan Palestinians, so the populace would remain pro-Hamas even in the midst of the unimaginable devastation.
Hamas and Israel exist in unholy symbiosis, serving each others' belligerent interests perfectly.

Inhumane weapons such as depleted uranium munitions, White Phosphorous and other experimental weapons are used on the population.

Actually, Israel has stopped using white phosphorous during the latest offensive on Gaza. I suppose pictures from 2009 like this and this have proven too troublesome for Israel's propaganda machine.
They have, however, started using a new type of bomb called DIME. It's ostensibly meant to reduce collateral damage during bombing raids, but in fact it causes terrible wounds.

Anyway, such inhumane (and internationally illegal) weapons are not very important on the grand scale of things, and there's no point focusing on them. The vast majority of casualties in Gaza were caused by good old-fashioned (and totally conventional) American bombs. Three cheers for the American military-industrial complex, for providing Israel with over $3 billion of armaments each year.

[rockBTC]

there are no terrorists in gaza. no one who acts in self defence is a terrorist.

hammas is far from acting in self defense. They are the aggressors.

[zyj3000]

who is the real aggressor?

http://www.thisdayinwikileaks.org/2014/08/3-august-2014.html

[itsAj]

who is the real aggressor?

http://www.thisdayinwikileaks.org/2014/08/3-august-2014.html

The real aggressors are in gaza. Hammas is firing rockets into Israel while they have agreed to a humanitarian cease fire, this has happened multiple times.

[blablahblah]

What I am getting from this is a rather emotive based appeal with the assigning of guilt based on that emotive appeal (images of mothers holding baby corpses) instead of on more impartial investigative findings.

1.) I don't necessarily disagree outright, but you don't provide any specific examples or supporting evidence for the assertion and I imagine, given the emotive start to the blog piece, that we would disagree on those examples.

So? Why are you offended by imagery that shows Palestinians as human rather than cattle?

Although it shouldn't be a competition, in some ways it is and the "Israeli side", or more accurately, the crazy ultra-nationalist imperialist Zionist side, has been winning the propaganda war for years. It's not surprising really, just use some of the billions and billions of dollars they've been getting for free from the US and Germany for decades to fund some lobbies and you basically can't lose.

I'm sure the genocide would have been almost complete by now, if wasn't for that pesky Internet and nosy bloggers giving people alternative sources of information and giving media companies some much-needed competition.

[zyj3000]

who is the real aggressor?

http://www.thisdayinwikileaks.org/2014/08/3-august-2014.html

The real aggressors are in gaza. Hammas is firing rockets into Israel while they have agreed to a humanitarian cease fire, this has happened multiple times.

i don't want to argue with you. just listen to this speech then you will know who is the real aggressor: http://youtu.be/_-UwcVP_k2Y

[DodoB]

The World turns a blind eye to Human Rights violation inflicted on Palestinians by the Israel Government.  There is attempted genocide happening there.

there are no terrorists in gaza. no one who acts in self defence is a terrorist.

Any one who launches rockets against civilian settlements is a terrorist. That includes the Hamas members, and the IDF (if they deliberately targeted the civilian areas inside Gaza).

And how can one be certain whos behind every attack that is happening.

Im telling you, while two sides are fighting, the third on is standing nearby and profiting from both.
Public is easily fooled, and many countries are exploiting that fact.

Learn what Genocide means. Gaza's population is steadily growing,assuming it wasnt it would take 90 years for Israel to kill every Gazan in the current rate.

[iluvpie60]

The IDF launched "Operation Protective Edge" on the 8th of July, more than a month ago. The operation involved shelling and a ground offensive.

More than 1800 people have died in Gaza, 3 civilians have died in Israel. 64 members of the IDF have died.

The UN estimate that more than 68% of the Palestinian dead are civilians, including 377 children and 196 women. The UN says that 2744 children have been injured - and they're referring to war wounds, not bruises. But what do these statistics mean?

Sadly, I feel that these numbers do not do justice to those dead and injured children - those children were not terrorists... perhaps their siblings or relatives may become terrorists in response to the grief they are carrying.

Children were playing on Gaza beach and were hit by a shell. They were playing on a beach. That's a disturbing mental image. When you see pictures of tiny corpses wrapped in cloth or children with shrapnel wounds and missing limbs. That is disturbing footage. And when I think of how many families in Gaza must be in anguish - how many mothers have held their baby's corpses? How many father's have lost their sons? How many children have lost their siblings? That is a disturbing reality, one which has compelled me to write this entry.

I have an 8 year old sister. If she died of an illness I would be distraught. However if she was murdered while she was playing in the park, I'm not even sure how I would feel - how can I guess how I would I feel in that situation? And I can only think that my mother would breakdown. Yet the appalling truth is that many people have numbed themselves to the suffering of the Palestinians.

I've stumbled across some deplorable justifications for the actions of the IDF in Gaza on social media and in articles. I'll run through a few and give my blunt opinion on them:

1) "Civilian casualties are a reality of warfare". These people are dressing up the phrase "shit happens". They're forgetting another reality: that Gaza is a strip of land - (hence Gaza strip) densely populated and can simply not be shelled without civilian casualties. The actions of the IDF have proven that the Israeli government are indifferent to the death of civilians in Gaza.

2) "There are far more people dying in conflicts within Arab countries such as Syria". Since when was it a contest? This opinion confuses me. It reminds of me of the debate around drug abuse, for instance heroin overdoses. Someone might say: "Well, far more people are dying from alcohol poisoning". That doesn't mean that heroin overdoses aren't an issue! What is that person suggesting: that it's worse to die from alcohol poisoning? Or maybe that alcohol poisoning is a "bigger" issue based on the number of deaths? To simply dismiss the conflict in Gaza is an insult to the civilians (many of whom were children) who have died there.

3) "The IDF's actions were justified - Hamas were firing rockets into Israel". It is true that Hamas were firing rockets into Israel. 3 Israeli citizens were killed by Hamas rockets and the lives of Israeli citizens were disrupted by rocket alarms. But does that justify the murder of 377 children? Does that justify injuring 2744 children? Can the murder of children ever be justified?? Those children weren't firing the rockets, and those injured (war wounds, not bruises) kids might not even have homes to return to... IDF shells killed those children. Was the IDF response proportionate? Does the IDF have the right to repeatedly violate UN resolutions?

A few interesting facts, people and perspectives:

The US government gave the IDF $8.5 million per day of 2013.

Gerald Kaufman - Jewish Labour MP , very heavy in his criticism of the Israeli government but not without a degree of validity

Gideon Levy - an Israeli journalist

you may choose to want to look at it from your angle, but you don't get it. the "civialians" and "children" over there are basically all allies of the enemy that kills people all the time. they aren't really any better...

israel is on its own besides the financial support they receive. th eonly reason more civialians die on the gaza side is because they purposefully put their weapons in schools an dhotels an dhospitals.

that is  really it, and israel has missile interceptors called th eiron dome and gaza does not. israel drops leaflets and calls buildings to warn civilians to leave the area immediately as there are weapons there they are going to strike. unless you want a full scale invasion of gaza to go house to house and have more casualties thann what else do u expect.

[zyj3000]

Amnesty International: Mounting evidence of deliberate attacks on Gaza health workers by Israeli army

[farfiman]

Amnesty International: Mounting evidence of deliberate attacks on Gaza health workers by Israeli army

It's complete utter one sided b.s.

With no connection(or maybe there is) there is plenty of evidence of hamas using ambulances to transport people and weapons.