When does a clone become not a clone?

[rabbiter]

I look at some coins like NODES and NEM which claim to be new codes but how do we know they are not just ripping off and plagiarising the NXT code?

I'm not technical but can you rip off the basic shell of a coin, use another programming language to cover it up more and say it's started 'from scratch' as a non technical person I personally don't have the skills to look at 'new' coins and know if they are ultimately and to what degree they have 'borrowed' ideas off NXT.


I'm sure NEM and NODE defenders will need to be heard but my point is can we really know even when we see the source code?

[From Above]

forget about it all QORA NXT NEM NODE its all a blatant joke.  the end is near, when the godly destructor is ready with these things then the sky will get dark and heavy rain will pour into the canyon washing these parasites away along with it.

~CfA~

[rabbiter]

forget about it all QORA NXT NEM NODE its all a blatant joke.  the end is near, when the godly destructor is ready with these things then the sky will get dark and heavy rain will pour into the canyon washing these parasites away along with it.

~CfA~

hahha thanks, have a nice day.

[From Above]

hahha thanks, have a nice day.

thanks u too and get out of the qora-nxt-ora-nem-node-illuminati axis fast as u know its a criminal act to invest money into it

~CfA™~

[digitalindustry]

when the core and economic parameters fundamentally change -

so the PoW Algo + the fundamental economics parameters.  

you could say that's a new thing.


so from "Bitcoin"

PoS ( Proof of Stake)  is new

Po$  ( Proof of Scam) Is new   ( all IPO Crypto)

cPoW Proof of work with an EQ reward is new  (Myraid if it has an EQ ) ( Quark + clones)

[rabbiter]

when the core and economic parameters fundamentally change -

so the PoW Algo + the fundamental economics parameters.  

you could say that's a new thing.


so from "Bitcoin"

PoS ( Proof of Stake)  is new

Po$  ( Proof of Scam) Is new   ( all IPO Crypto)

cPoW Proof of work with an EQ reward is new  (Myraid if it has an EQ ) ( Quark + clones)

I'm not wanting to argue. But sounds like what you are defining as new is just tweaking of some parameters and saying it's a NEW code. Surely it's just a small change looking at the bigger picture? yeah it might improve the coin but it's essentially the same coin, right?


To me a new code from scratch is not even influenced by another coin. Cause Like I said I'm not technical I want to know what is truely new about these new coins and what is smoke and mirrors.

I'll be honest I do t really trust these new coins that say they were going to be a NXT clone and then overnight turn around and say they are coded from scratch, it smells a bit fishy to me.

I'm fact finding I'm open to be convinced.

I wonder how we can check source codes from independent people who could really know how much a 'NEW coin' has plagiarised NXT and how innovative it really is?


Problem is so many people with skills are attached to projects and have their bias but the community needs some way to know what is under the hood of these new coins because I bet 95% of investors have NO IDEA other than the logo design and name of the coin what they are buying.

[digitalindustry]

when the core and economic parameters fundamentally change -

so the PoW Algo + the fundamental economics parameters.  

you could say that's a new thing.


so from "Bitcoin"

PoS ( Proof of Stake)  is new

Po$  ( Proof of Scam) Is new   ( all IPO Crypto)

cPoW Proof of work with an EQ reward is new  (Myraid if it has an EQ ) ( Quark + clones)

I'm not wanting to argue. But sounds like what you are defining as new is just tweaking of some parameters and saying it's a NEW code. Surely it's just a small change looking at the bigger picture? yeah it might improve the coin but it's essentially the same coin, right?


To me a new code from scratch is not even influenced by another coin. Cause Like I said I'm not technical I want to know what is truely new about these new coins and what is smoke and mirrors.

I'll be honest I do t really trust these new coins that say they were going to be a NXT clone and then overnight turn around and say they are coded from scratch, it smells a bit fishy to me.

I'm fact finding I'm open to be convinced.

I wonder how we can check source codes from independent people who could really know how much a 'NEW coin' has plagiarised NXT and how innovative it really is?


Problem is so many people with skills are attached to projects and have their bias but the community needs some way to know what is under the hood of these new coins because I bet 95% of investors have NO IDEA other than the logo design and name of the coin what they are buying.

1. a discussion isn't an argument.

2. if you are talking about an "e-cash" protocol then the Bitcoin PoW is derived from the something called "Hashcash"  but the principal of the decentralized ledger is unique to the Bitcoin protocol the NSA white paper of 1996 covers the details and attributes of the actual protocol, Bitcoin basically used the "Hashcash" PoW for a "Decentralized ledger"

now

I would argue that a "Crypto currency" has a :

1. Decentralized ledger
2. uses encryption to secure it

"Emuni" is a ground up system that has a decentralized ledger - but i'm not sure of the encryption or other aspects.

NXT is a Po$ IPO ( that is to say they use PoS after the "Proof of scam" issuance period.)

I would argue both of those are new, so it comes down to what you want to call a "Clone."

likewise Quark and Myriad.

it comes down to your level of education i guess?

[rabbiter]

I'm getting the vibe you are against POS from the start so maybe you are not the best person to be involved in this discussion. Leave that for another time.


Most people aren't educated in crypto technology, we all have specialisms, ask the average brain surgeon about the merits of POW over POS and they will look blankly at you. Personally, from a purely technical point of view I find Crypto incredibly boring, not everyone needs to know how their phone works to enjoy it.


I've always thought if you can't explain something complicated to a child you probably don't understand it yourself very well. Your points are off on a tangent.

The question is how much is really new and how much is borrowed. If say for example we talked about music we could say it's a straight cover of a song, or it's in a different genre or they just sampled a few seconds or it's inspired by the original and we can also put things into percentages and in a way the layman can understand.

[digitalindustry]

I'm getting the vibe you are against POS from the start so maybe you are not the best person to be involved in this discussion. Leave that for another time.


Most people aren't educated in crypto technology, we all have specialisms, ask the average brain surgeon about the merits of POW over POS and they will look blankly at you. Personally, from a purely technical point of view I find Crypto incredibly boring, not everyone needs to know how their phone works to enjoy it.


I've always thought if you can't explain something complicated to a child you probably don't understand it yourself very well. Your points are off on a tangent.

The question is how much is really new and how much is borrowed. If say for example we talked about music we could say it's a straight cover of a song, or it's in a different genre or they just sampled a few seconds or it's inspired by the original and we can also put things into percentages and in a way the layman can understand.

nope - i actually support a few PoS crypto currency,    I'm generally warily bullish on Caps (CAP) and Hobo Nickels (HBN)  they both had an extended PoW period.

I can explain it to a child, i didn't know you wanted that?



I have done that i used a Jenga Picture to explain "Proof of Work" :

http://kolinevans.wordpress.com/2014/07/02/what-is-proof-of-work-distribution-or-sometimes-stated-as-pow-for-cryptocurency-beginners/



I explained how Japan is a Fiat bag-holder nation with an Egg picture and 3 graphs:

http://kolinevans.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/so-the-japanese-train-wreck-finally-pulled-in-to-the-station/



I explained the NXT scam with pictures:

http://kolinevans.wordpress.com/2014/07/31/cryptocurrency-to-cryptocurrency-ipos-are-a-completely-corrupt-deception-the-simple-technical-guide/



***** oh dam i just realized you're a NXT sock puppet oh dam sorry bro - continue ...

you guys got me !

eggs on my face !

[rabbiter]

I'm getting the vibe you are against POS from the start so maybe you are not the best person to be involved in this discussion. Leave that for another time.


Most people aren't educated in crypto technology, we all have specialisms, ask the average brain surgeon about the merits of POW over POS and they will look blankly at you. Personally, from a purely technical point of view I find Crypto incredibly boring, not everyone needs to know how their phone works to enjoy it.


I've always thought if you can't explain something complicated to a child you probably don't understand it yourself very well. Your points are off on a tangent.

The question is how much is really new and how much is borrowed. If say for example we talked about music we could say it's a straight cover of a song, or it's in a different genre or they just sampled a few seconds or it's inspired by the original and we can also put things into percentages and in a way the layman can understand.

nope - i actually support a few PoS crypto currency,    I'm generally warily bullish on Caps (CAP) and Hobo Nickels (HBN)  they both had an extended PoW period.

I can explain it to a child, i didn't know you wanted that?



I have done that i used a Jenga Picture to explain "Proof of Work" :

http://kolinevans.wordpress.com/2014/07/02/what-is-proof-of-work-distribution-or-sometimes-stated-as-pow-for-cryptocurency-beginners/



I explained how Japan is a Fiat bag-holder nation with an Egg picture and 3 graphs:

http://kolinevans.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/so-the-japanese-train-wreck-finally-pulled-in-to-the-station/



I explained the NXT scam with pictures:

http://kolinevans.wordpress.com/2014/07/31/cryptocurrency-to-cryptocurrency-ipos-are-a-completely-corrupt-deception-the-simple-technical-guide/



***** oh dam i just realized you're a NXT sock puppet oh dam sorry bro - continue ...

you guys got me !

eggs on my face !

yeah but your not explaining anything close to the question in the OP. that's why I said your not the best person to get involved here cause you clearly want to say some unrelated stuff about how you feel about NXT. Have a drink, take a nap and find another thread.

And yeah you do have egg on your face cause you either can't read or follow a simple discussion or your just muddle headed. You clearly aren't on the same page as the OP discussion.

I don't own a single NXT coin Sherlock.

[apepoof]

What about Proof of Capacity... even Burst seems to be a rip-off...

anyone know how many are actually from scratch?

[rabbiter]

What about Proof of Capacity... even Burst seems to be a rip-off...

anyone know how many are actually from scratch?

The question is not on the mechanics of the POS algo it's the coding of different coins, read the OP for fucks sake. This topic got sidelined almost instantly by the above clown.

[vincentvincent]

I look at some coins like NODES and NEM which claim to be new codes but how do we know they are not just ripping off and plagiarising the NXT code?

I'm not technical but can you rip off the basic shell of a coin, use another programming language to cover it up more and say it's started 'from scratch' as a non technical person I personally don't have the skills to look at 'new' coins and know if they are ultimately and to what degree they have 'borrowed' ideas off NXT.


I'm sure NEM and NODE defenders will need to be heard but my point is can we really know even when we see the source code?

In my opinion NXT and QORA (see my footer, i must be biassed) are new code and not clones.

It is hard to say what is new and what not. If they use totally different coding languages or library's it will be quite sure it is not a clone.
If a coin has its typical behaviour (like forging nxt) is a good signal i think. And if the wallet looks very different is also a goed signal.
Also if your run a QORA wallet you will see it behaves very different from other coins.

I don't think QORA is a clone of NXT. All the other NXT clones are very similar to NXT you can see by the walletsoftware they use.

[xtester]

Hi rabbiter,

Although you may express yourself like a troll sometimes, I think you are raising a valid point in your OP post.

The solution to the cloning/innovation problem should be solved by independent code audits. Meaning, independent reputable people in the industry are payed to audit the code and establish its quality, security, novelty, etc. In fact, NEM has already planned for such audits to take place after the official launch. Indeed, until such audits happen, a useful heuristic would be to ask for the opinion of the most important developers from the coin which is suspected to be cloned(Nxt in this case). I hope it helps to hear this has also been done. In fact both Jean-Luc and Come-from-Beyond, the lead developers of Nxt, expressed interest and curiosity with regard to NEM.

Here are some of their thoughts:

• Jean-Luc: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576480.msg6311955#msg6311955
• Come-from-beyond: https://nxtforum.org/pub-crawl/come-from-beyond-and-nem/

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
xtester

[digitalindustry]

Hey talk about Egg ! i've also just found this !!! how could i have missed this !
 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=713538.0

Bitfreak - implemented the mini blockchain -

still a clone?

suppose its not a IPO scam?

[rabbiter]

Hey talk about Egg ! i've also just found this !!! how could i have missed this !
 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=713538.0

Bitfreak - implemented the mini blockchain -

still a clone?

suppose its not a IPO scam?

Cryptonite themselves say the coin is a fork of the a bitcoin core.

More egg..

[rabbiter]

Hi rabbiter,

Although you may express yourself like a troll sometimes, I think you are raising a valid point in your OP post.

The solution to the cloning/innovation problem should be solved by independent code audits. Meaning, independent reputable people in the industry are payed to audit the code and establish its quality, security, novelty, etc. In fact, NEM has already planned for such audits to take place after the official launch. Indeed, until such audits happen, a useful heuristic would be to ask for the opinion of the most important developers from the coin which is suspected to be cloned(Nxt in this case). I hope it helps to hear this has also been done. In fact both Jean-Luc and Come-from-Beyond, the lead developers of Nxt, expressed interest and curiosity with regard to NEM.

Here are some of their thoughts:

• Jean-Luc: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576480.msg6311955#msg6311955
• Come-from-beyond: https://nxtforum.org/pub-crawl/come-from-beyond-and-nem/

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
xtester

Even if we had more independent people and sites that could review coins at more depth than currently the norm. I don't buy anything big till I read a ton of reviews from various sources.

While I'm a big supporter of Qora and trust in their claims they are truly a new code I want it's claims put under as much scrutiny as all the others. At the moment we are investing blind and trusting on the developers hype.

We didn't have this problem till quite recently with so many coins claiming built from scratch, this is going to be essential moving forward.


Jean Luc and CfB are still gonna have their biases being so close to NXT. It's gonna need a more open team of people not just a few individuals. People have been calling for an Independent team to review Qora rather than go open source, now personally I disagree and think they should go open source but I think the need is there for a reputable team of source code checkers. Or at least a forum where various people can dive in review the code and give their thoughts and findings and the various voices just like user reviews can build a fuller picture of a coins code.

Maybe all that is needed is moderated threads for a coin inviting people to review and post their findings once a source code is released?

[Justine]

I look at some coins like NODES and NEM which claim to be new codes but how do we know they are not just ripping off and plagiarising the NXT code?

I'm not technical but can you rip off the basic shell of a coin, use another programming language to cover it up more and say it's started 'from scratch' as a non technical person I personally don't have the skills to look at 'new' coins and know if they are ultimately and to what degree they have 'borrowed' ideas off NXT.


I'm sure NEM and NODE defenders will need to be heard but my point is can we really know even when we see the source code?

Open source project is not without drawback. Anyone can just copy your idea and work and put more effort into marketing their own coin.

[rabbiter]

I look at some coins like NODES and NEM which claim to be new codes but how do we know they are not just ripping off and plagiarising the NXT code?

I'm not technical but can you rip off the basic shell of a coin, use another programming language to cover it up more and say it's started 'from scratch' as a non technical person I personally don't have the skills to look at 'new' coins and know if they are ultimately and to what degree they have 'borrowed' ideas off NXT.


I'm sure NEM and NODE defenders will need to be heard but my point is can we really know even when we see the source code?

Open source project is not without drawback. Anyone can just copy your idea and work and put more effort into marketing their own coin.

well that's why we are discussing it. But there is a scale of how much a coin is doing something new or not. A coin using some principles of another and another that just clones the code is vastly different and people need to know if their product is genuinely innovative or just another clone whose code is plagiarised and tracks covered by various ways. That's not to say a clone has no purpose but people need to be able to know for themselves what they are investing in and compare that with the hype of the developer.

[Lauda]

I look at some coins like NODES and NEM which claim to be new codes but how do we know they are not just ripping off and plagiarising the NXT code?

I'm not technical but can you rip off the basic shell of a coin, use another programming language to cover it up more and say it's started 'from scratch' as a non technical person I personally don't have the skills to look at 'new' coins and know if they are ultimately and to what degree they have 'borrowed' ideas off NXT.


I'm sure NEM and NODE defenders will need to be heard but my point is can we really know even when we see the source code?

Open source project is not without drawback. Anyone can just copy your idea and work and put more effort into marketing their own coin.

I agree. That's the problem especially since we have no restrictions here and some people are just pumping many clones.
I would it either when it offers something unique compared to Bitcoin (not faster block times, confirmations, random rewards etc.), or when it was coded from scratch.
Then again this is the same as asking what makes up a good coin?