Crowdfunding legal costs for case at the EU Court of Justice about Bitcoin/VAT

[Hermel]

It's a waste of time for laymen in this thread to try to sort out the directive and the outcome of this case, it doesn't work like that.

And it can also be fatal to blindly trust a professional. If it is important, you cannot get around understanding it yourself.

My point is that the court will make their decision based not primarily on the actual wording of the directive, but on other things such as argumentation, the EU's basic values​​, the possible implications of the specific and other cases, political agendas, symbolic values ​​and arbitrary discretion. In order to even get a point across you need first and foremost a law degree and secondly immense experience of EUCOJ litigation.
Of course, the discussion is interesting, but I would rather see people focusing on where they can actually make a difference: funding. DH has received just over 1.6 BTC and he will probably need closer to 100 BTC.

Fortunately, my wife has a masters in European VAT (among other degrees). I showed her the question and she is confident that the court won't rule the stupid way. Doing so would cause too many complications. For example, a miner not subject to VAT selling Bitcoins to the exchange could charge 119€ and keep all the 119€ for himself, while the exchange could reclaim 19€ from the tax authorities (Urproduzenten rule in German, not sure how it is called in English).

Edit: you should check out the more more accurate comments on reddit.

[franky1]

It's a waste of time for laymen in this thread to try to sort out the directive and the outcome of this case, it doesn't work like that.

its not a waste of time.

you assume that the court judge sets the rules and the only thing anyone can do is to turn up and listen.

NO this is not the case, it is for the "layman" to best understand and determine what the rules should be and to fight and argue their case in such a way that the judge rules in our favour, as oppose to allowing the judge to agree with the opposition.

and as such preparing for it is best, and what better way to prepare for the argument. Well thats what this thread could be used for, so that the OP can take any interesting points to his lawyers to train and teach his lawyers about what bitcoin is truly about so that they can sound professional and accurate in court.

a true waste of time would be to say nothing and just turn up to court to allow the judge to decide on the law without any input from the experts (us laymen as you describe it)

[D.H.]

There is quite a popular thread on Reddit now on what this case is really about so I will copy the comment that I made there.

Hedqvist here. It is correct that the dispute in Sweden between Skatteverket and Skatterättsnämnden was regarding the fees. The person from Skatteverket responsible for the appeal made that very clear in a comment in a news article (in Swedish).

Roughly translated: "Our goal is not to add VAT to bitcoins, but there could possibly be VAT on the exchange fee".

BUT, in the last few days I have heard that there is an opinion among lawyers and other experts that "questions referred to the CJEU are formulated so broadly, that they could be interpreted as also pertaining to the sale of bitcoins as such". I don't have the expertise to have an opinion on that, but if that is true it sure makes the case even more important.

[D.H.]

I have now posted an update on Reddit. I will also update the original post here to reflect that information.

[D.H.]

I have posted a new update about the case.

tl;dr

• Germany and Estonia argued against VAT exemption.
• The EU commission argued in favor of VAT exemption. Their submission also included the "preliminary view" of the UK, also in favor of exemption.
• I have the possibility to request an oral hearing (but there might be an oral hearing anyway). If there is an oral hearing I'll need to raise more funds.

[franky1]

I have posted a new update about the case.

tl;dr

• Germany and Estonia argued against VAT exemption.
• The EU commission argued in favor of VAT exemption. Their submission also included the "preliminary view" of the UK, also in favor of exemption.
• I have the possibility to request an oral hearing (but there might be an oral hearing anyway). If there is an oral hearing I'll need to raise more funds.

did you get any sponsorship or donations from other exchanges which wish to in future or already do operate in EU.

[D.H.]

did you get any sponsorship or donations from other exchanges which wish to in future or already do operate in EU.

The first part, the written submission, was fully funded by a single donor (a major industry member). Now I'm looking for ways to fund the rest of the process. I have 2.8 bitcoin that I received through crowdfunding but that's all, nothing from any major players.