Bitcoin Forum
May 03, 2024, 01:52:38 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 [6]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Monero XMR ... Why do people fall for the shills and bullshit?  (Read 6049 times)
drawingthesun
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176
Merit: 1015


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 01:49:59 AM
 #101

So my point that hardfork is a bad case for currency, especcialy for widespread currency.

This is actually a good area to discuss.

My personal view is that crypto coins are a social contract between the develelopers and the users. The main branch of the coin (that has the brand) is the initial social contract (expectations) between the developers and the users.

If the users do not like something, they can then split and follow a new brand.

Example. Monero team in one year changes x in the code and hardfork happens. This is ok in my view because by using monero I agree to use this coin that is being developed by these developers. Of course there is a level of trust, if too many people disagree with the change then the coin will most likely be destroyed.

Let's not be naive. If the social contract with Monero was "the coin will never have any major changes even though competitors will most likely emerge" then I would not invest, and this is one of the reasons I wanted to move some money out of Bitcoin, because they are not reacting to the world at becoming complacent.

These currencies are not 100% trust less. You need to trust the market, the miners and the developers.

1714744358
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714744358

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714744358
Reply with quote  #2

1714744358
Report to moderator
"In a nutshell, the network works like a distributed timestamp server, stamping the first transaction to spend a coin. It takes advantage of the nature of information being easy to spread but hard to stifle." -- Satoshi
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
1714744358
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714744358

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714744358
Reply with quote  #2

1714744358
Report to moderator
1714744358
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714744358

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714744358
Reply with quote  #2

1714744358
Report to moderator
1714744358
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714744358

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1714744358
Reply with quote  #2

1714744358
Report to moderator
crypto_zoidberg
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 976
Merit: 646



View Profile WWW
August 23, 2014, 02:44:24 AM
 #102


No its not; you dont need to wait on anyone, you simply make a block out where the hardfork gets active, lets say 1 month in the future. So people have at least a month time to uprade their software.
Yeah, it may work until project is small, with mostly controlled community.

Quote
What it needs to do a hardfork is communication with the users and service providers and our communication with them is pretty good.

Funny enough that you will also have to hardfork as mentinoed in the XMR economy thread; when the blockreward runs out and we simply rely on tx fees, this won´t work in the next years, a minimum block reward is needed.

Sorry but its just naive to think that the current cryptocurrencies will survive the next 100 years without a single hardfork.
Sorry but its just naive to think that you could communicate with users and services in world famous product. It's mostly not possible to convince people to update their software even if you have product users subscribed emails or followers or whatever. They just lazy or don't care. Not to mention cryptocurrencies, where you have no idea who are using your coin.

Imagine what would happen if significant part of network won't update it(by different reasons) at time of block X ?
 

Quote
Quote
but it has some contradictions with crypto-currency nature (in my vision):
Says the one who decides which ring signatures to cut off in BBR...
I'm not decides which, all RS will be cut-off after reaching some level of deepness. And this won't hurt anonimity or mixins. Or, if you think different, could you mention concrete technical objection ?

Quote
It´s simple: the users will decide if they accept the changes or not.  
Here you contradict with yourself - if you do hardfork in the way you mentioned(just hardforked from block X) you not giving a way for users to decide.
I mean if some of them really decide against - then you just fuckup hardfork with network split at the moment of block X.

This why bitcoin have careful protocol for hardforking, where you have to wait until network will update to needed version and really give users a way to decide.


I didn't say that hardfork is not an option at all.
The flame started from my words:
Quote
...Architectural changes that will require hardfork better to implement before launch...
and I am deeply convinced of this.
So my point is that hardfork is risky and/or slow case, this should be used only in extra situations, where you have no other way to fix issue.
And i do not rule that we in BBR would be forced to make hardfork once a day. And probably more than once, i agree that nobody can foresee everything in advance.


othe
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532
Merit: 500


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 09:05:30 AM
 #103

Quote
Yeah, it may work until project is small, with mostly controlled community.

Its a general Problem in IT, old software at some point doesn´t get any more support, the best examples are microsoft windows XP, old unmaintained linux kernels, older android builds or iphones. Users have to upgrade in a given timeframe if they want to expect everything to work, its not ideal but it is how it is.
For example Whatsapp stopped working on Iphone 3G, because they demand a newer IOS version which isn´t available for 3g.
Starcraft II stopped working on older MAC OSX version, because after an upgraded it required a newer OSX version which isn´t available on older Hardware.

If we think like that and always care about backwards compatibility we would be stuck in IT stone age.

Quote
Sorry but its just naive to think that you could communicate with users and services in world famous product. It's mostly not possible to convince people to update their software even if you have product users subscribed emails or followers or whatever. They just lazy or don't care. Not to mention cryptocurrencies, where you have no idea who are using your coin.

Imagine what would happen if significant part of network won't update it(by different reasons) at time of block X ?

I see it like DGA: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=624223.msg8048067#msg8048067
Yeah some users might have problems but does it justify not to enhance the software for the majority of users?

Quote
I'm not decides which, all RS will be cut-off after reaching some level of deepness. And this won't hurt anonimity or mixins. Or, if you think different, could you mention concrete technical objection ?

Is the code implemented in Boolberry from the start? You could point me to the implementation? If its not in the codebase yet aren´t you effectively the one who will decide it when you implement it?

Quote
Here you contradict with yourself - if you do hardfork in the way you mentioned(just hardforked from block X) you not giving a way for users to decide.
I mean if some of them really decide against - then you just fuckup hardfork with network split at the moment of block X.

This why bitcoin have careful protocol for hardforking, where you have to wait until network will update to needed version and really give users a way to decide.

Careful like this?
http://siliconangle.com/blog/2013/05/13/bitcoin-blockchain-hard-fork-coming-may-15th-final-warning/
https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2013-03-15-upgrade-deadline

Or the Dogecoin hardforks or the Darkcoin hardforks?

I agree it causes issues for users but can be done carefully planned.

Quote
Quote
...Architectural changes that will require hardfork better to implement before launch...
and I am deeply convinced of this.
So my point is that hardfork is risky and/or slow case, this should be used only in extra situations, where you have no other way to fix issue.
And i do not rule that we in BBR would be forced to make hardfork once a day. And probably more than once, i agree that nobody can foresee everything in advance.

I do agree also that of course not doing a hardfork is preferred.

What i do totally disagree with is this "this should be used only in extra situations, where you have no other way to fix issue."

I think, and its my personal opinion like everything i write, that a fork is justified whenever a sufficient improvement to the code or an economic flaw can be made.
Instead of just deciding to roll out feature XY at launch it should be done like Tromp does it for Cuckoo Cycle: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=707879.20
He has my utmost respect of how he handles his research.

I know your PoW has been also discussed in a seperate thread but somehow you didn´t get the right feedback, which isn´t your fault but still Cbuchner abused it to great extent.
You even thought about hardforking to cn.

For example your ALIAS feature, i totally disagree with how it works, as you can see here: http://boolberry.com/state.html
There are aliases registered for exchanges, for example this:

poloniex 1JVrM7Qg64Y5C3ANFegoCZjQokhkC5UtRQjddeuBDc7S7bjZWPpUCq8TBPbXxDVmHkWjugxf1Pk1CbZ D8gHQx4i4U22XywU
poloniex.com 1G467p3k4qGiqQCwFPDqSc46wzQZ9qnXB9JtLW9WD7T5UbnnT3imGsLeMnfjW5tsbBAibLbafcARU5e jW17mgYSd2Nxnq2W

Now, there´s no way to check if even one of them is really from Poloniex, which i doubt because miners control the whole alias infrastructure.
That opens doors for scammers litterally. You advertise it as a feedback but i see it as a drawback tbh.

It´s not the only thing where i see problems with some stuff you have build.

I also do think that Bitcoin (and we CN coins too) should do something against the Pool/Mining centralisation problem and it will prolly require a hardfork, but its a problem which definately needs to be solved sooner or later.
Or maybe Litecoin should have forked to counter the ASICs, they somehow lost their selling point with them, so at least for me its a "bug" which should have been fixed.

I can think of tons of improvements where a hardfork is simply justified.

Quote
a) We have more real GUI than you guys, it's just a fact.
b) Architectural changes that will require hardfork better to implement before launch, so i implemented those features that i supposed to be important fixes of CN and can't be fixed in future without hardforks. You prefer to build community instead of it and later torment network with hardforks ? ... well, Monero obviously had no choice since it was launched by TFT, and i could understand it. But trying to convince people now that it is normal practice sounds senseless.

a) We have 2 guis that are released and 1 gui in the works.
That makes a total of 3 guis, is 1 gui more real gui than 3 guis? Sorry i am not up2date with GUI-Math ;-)

Your GUI is insufficient for the broader mass.

I could argue now that we have more daemon and other stuff...but oh well...i better don´t start.


b) But see the alias for example, its flawed for me. I think such decisions should not be made by a single person. If you think a feature is good doesn´t mean its good in general.


Quote
b) It's obviously that db is not critical for next few months. Atm end-user won't feel any difference - in BBR we have about 1-2 seconds for loading blockchain from storage file. So now better to focus on really critical issues.

The only reason a DB is not needed for BBR is the lack of transaction and the thus small blockchain.
But i argue, it IS needed to drive adoption and tooling for services around CN. I am still totally shocked that the CN codebase was released without a DB in mind.
The endusers don´t feel a difference, in your case at the moment, but every business or programmer interested in CN services or tooling will see a big difference.
Also our Daemon stuff is important for that, its not enough to please users with a simple GUI, the other side of the economy also needs to be supported.

btc-mike
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 938
Merit: 1001



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 08:14:39 PM
 #104

Can't we all just get along tolerate each other?

Hardforks can work well or fail. Multiple examples for either case.

GUIs will be different.

BBR alias system is not perfect in current implementation.

Blockchain size can be handled different ways. We won't really know if one method is better for several years.

I will make mistakes.

We (the dev teams) are just arguing on the internet now. This arguing is a waste of our time. I would rather be working on my chosen cryptocurrencies than looking for flaws in some "oppenents" online post. Wouldn't you?
MaxDZ8
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 672
Merit: 500



View Profile
August 24, 2014, 06:44:34 AM
 #105

You are an hero Mike.
BigTimeProducer
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 171
Merit: 10


View Profile
March 23, 2015, 11:54:26 PM
 #106

You are an hero Mike.
I love you too Mike!
btc-mike
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 938
Merit: 1001



View Profile
March 24, 2015, 02:37:28 AM
 #107

You are an hero Mike.
I love you too Mike!

LOL!

Would you still love me if I said I own more XMR than BBR?
fluffypony
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060


GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com


View Profile WWW
March 24, 2015, 11:30:11 AM
 #108

You are an hero Mike.
I love you too Mike!

LOL!

Would you still love me if I said I own more XMR than BBR?

lol... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States

BigTimeProducer
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 171
Merit: 10


View Profile
March 24, 2015, 01:39:57 PM
 #109

You are an hero Mike.
I love you too Mike!

LOL!

Would you still love me if I said I own more XMR than BBR?

Yes. Yes I would. *hugs*
Quicken
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280
Merit: 250


View Profile
March 24, 2015, 02:09:13 PM
 #110

You are an hero Mike.
I love you too Mike!

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

Thanks, it allowed me to efficiently update my ignore list. :-)
btc-mike
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 938
Merit: 1001



View Profile
March 24, 2015, 04:41:27 PM
 #111

You are an hero Mike.
I love you too Mike!

LOL!

Would you still love me if I said I own more XMR than BBR?

Yes. Yes I would. *hugs*

 Kiss
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 [6]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!