Confusing Capitalism with Fractional Reserve Banking

[Timetwister]

What's wrong with capitalism? Capitalism means voluntary exchange, and therefore exchanges were every part considers that is winning.

i used to get an hour's paid lunch break and double time for working on sundays, now i don't. if i complain my employer will replace me with a third world immigrant. there is nothing voluntary about work for whatever pay and conditions the employer decides or starve to death.

You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.

[johnyj]

FRB is useless if no one has the need to borrow money, which is the case now. Banks must create super temptation for people to borrow money, like owning a house

[Bonam]

You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.

leave and go where? no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capital;ist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Assuming you are in the US, there are numerous restrictions on the legal hiring of foreign workers. In fact, these restrictions are fairly stringent and impose a significant burden on employers. If you are talking about illegal immigrants, then if you work at a workplace where these are hired, you are free to report your employer to the authorities, as they are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

As for the point about both parents having to work... that is an inevitable result of women joining the workforce. Houses cost as much as people are willing to pay for them. If a family has more income, they'll compete with other families to buy the nicest house in the best location. Two incomes means more money to spend on that house. The transition from single income to dual income families is what has fueled the meteoric growth in housing prices over the last several decades.

[Timetwister]

You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.

leave and go where?

Wherever you find convenient. You are free.

no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capitalist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Employees get their discounted marginal value product in the unhampered market. If governments intervene, they get less (or become unemployment), because of taxes.

[botany]

You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.

leave and go where? no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capital;ist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Assuming you are in the US, there are numerous restrictions on the legal hiring of foreign workers. In fact, these restrictions are fairly stringent and impose a significant burden on employers. If you are talking about illegal immigrants, then if you work at a workplace where these are hired, you are free to report your employer to the authorities, as they are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

As for the point about both parents having to work... that is an inevitable result of women joining the workforce. Houses cost as much as people are willing to pay for them. If a family has more income, they'll compete with other families to buy the nicest house in the best location. Two incomes means more money to spend on that house. The transition from single income to dual income families is what has fueled the meteoric growth in housing prices over the last several decades.

The cap on visas is a way the US keeps foreign workers out. All this talk about free trade is a farce. In a true globalized economy, there should be unrestricted movement of labour as well as capital.

[madken7777]

Can you specifically name at least one or two of those countries?

india most of africa most of latin america

inb4 but they arent really following true capitalism,the ron paul types are as bad as trotsky supporter

India isnt poor its a BRIC.  You might be thinking of Bangladesh or Pakistan

BRIC is a marketing jargon for the wall street to sell all the ipo garbage originated from these countries.

You need to visit those countries to really know the level of development they are in. Basic infrastructure such as water, electricity and sewage. If they don't have these basic services running without downtime, how develop do you think the country is?

[master-P]

You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.

leave and go where? no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capital;ist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Assuming you are in the US, there are numerous restrictions on the legal hiring of foreign workers. In fact, these restrictions are fairly stringent and impose a significant burden on employers. If you are talking about illegal immigrants, then if you work at a workplace where these are hired, you are free to report your employer to the authorities, as they are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

As for the point about both parents having to work... that is an inevitable result of women joining the workforce. Houses cost as much as people are willing to pay for them. If a family has more income, they'll compete with other families to buy the nicest house in the best location. Two incomes means more money to spend on that house. The transition from single income to dual income families is what has fueled the meteoric growth in housing prices over the last several decades.

The cap on visas is a way the US keeps foreign workers out. All this talk about free trade is a farce. In a true globalized economy, there should be unrestricted movement of labour as well as capital.

Countries have always restricted the movement of labor and will continue to do so. This is how countries can protect themselves from a defacto invasion

[gts476]

You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.

leave and go where? no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capital;ist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Assuming you are in the US, there are numerous restrictions on the legal hiring of foreign workers. In fact, these restrictions are fairly stringent and impose a significant burden on employers. If you are talking about illegal immigrants, then if you work at a workplace where these are hired, you are free to report your employer to the authorities, as they are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

As for the point about both parents having to work... that is an inevitable result of women joining the workforce. Houses cost as much as people are willing to pay for them. If a family has more income, they'll compete with other families to buy the nicest house in the best location. Two incomes means more money to spend on that house. The transition from single income to dual income families is what has fueled the meteoric growth in housing prices over the last several decades.

The cap on visas is a way the US keeps foreign workers out. All this talk about free trade is a farce. In a true globalized economy, there should be unrestricted movement of labour as well as capital.

Countries have always restricted the movement of labor and will continue to do so. This is how countries can protect themselves from a defacto invasion

That's false. Wasn't enacted in the UK in any serious manner until 1914. Previously, if I wanted to freely work anywhere in the world, I could.

It was a NATO resolution that makes it illegal in international law to be without state (ie to hold no passport) in the 20th century.

A passport is a proof of 'citizenship' and it is a cattle brand to prove which government owns you, it is a choker collar around your neck.

[Timetwister]

Wherever you find convenient. You are free.

the ability to pick between between 2 employers who both offer the same thing or have nothing isnt freedom

before you answer learn a skill and find better paying job realise someone else must then fill original workers place in the low pay job and nothing is changed. maybe you personally do well from free market but you should understand the majority dont.

You are paid your discounted marginal value product. If your marginal value product, what you produce, is worth $1000, and the pure interest rate is 5%, you'll get $952. If someone is offering less, go to another employer. All that is in the unhampered free market. Once the government intervenes, you get much less, because of taxes. But then you have to blame the government, not employers.

Employees get their discounted marginal value product in the unhampered market. If governments intervene, they get less (or become unemployment), because of taxes.

dont want government intervention obama bullshit welfare spending i want a revolution that kills or exiles the shareholder and landowner who takes most of what i produce.

That's false. You are paid just a bit less than what you produce. If that's not true is because of government interventionism.

[gts476]

False. Wasn't enacted in the UK in any serious manner until 1914. Previously, if I wanted to freely work anywhere in the world, I could.

It was a NATO resolution that makes it illegal in international law to be without state (ie to hold no passport) in the 20th century.

A passport is a proof of 'citizenship' and it is a cattle brand to prove which government owns you, it is a choker collar around your neck.

there weren't mass population movements from undeveloped world to civilised world in 1914 so there was no need for such legislation. usa had very strict controls on non western european immigration until 1960s because the threat of coloured and asian immigration was a real problem. then hippy race mixer equality thought came to prevail and the rest is history.

you must mean united nations not nato

Wherever you find convenient. You are free.

the ability to pick between between 2 employers who both offer the same thing or have nothing isnt freedom

before you answer learn a skill and find better paying job realise someone else must then fill original workers place in the low pay job and nothing is changed. maybe you personally do well from free market but you should understand the majority dont.

You are paid your discounted marginal value product. If your marginal value product, what you produce, is worth $1000, and the pure interest rate is 5%, you'll get $952. If someone is offering less, go to another employer. All that is in the unhampered free market. Once the government intervenes, you get much less, because of taxes. But then you have to blame the government, not employers.

Employees get their discounted marginal value product in the unhampered market. If governments intervene, they get less (or become unemployment), because of taxes.

dont want government intervention obama bullshit welfare spending i want a revolution that kills or exiles the shareholder and landowner who takes most of what i produce.

That's false. You are paid just a bit less than what you produce. If that's not true is because of government interventionism.

wal mart last year 28 billion profit divide that between all their workers the ones who actually created the wealth and its an extra 12k per person. i said landowners as well so remember to give everyone back that much of their rents not needed for property maintenance and repairs. we just increased everyones wages by 75-100% with only the profiteer and landlord losing out

workers on low wages dont pay very much income tax, tax and government is only important to millionaire libertarian who wants to be allowed hold onto more of the wealth he took from workers

Yup UN, my mistake thx. I assert that it was not required not because of labour mobility, which was a non issue, but it became an issue with the introduction of a personal income tax which began at the same time.

As you start to tax the production of people, milk the cows, you need a way to fence them in and make sure people don't steal your cows. So you brand them with citizenship and fence them with control of the flow of labour.

Wow! You want to kill the wealthy? What the fuck?! A libertarian by definition can not take anything from anyone mate. Everything he has is freely traded.

Oh, the revolution you want is called a communist revolution.

[pungopete468]

You are free to leave that job. But you aren't free of, for example, paying taxes to the government.

leave and go where? no employer gives paid breaks or extra money for weekends any more because they dont have to. the free market competition capital;ist supporter love so much allows big business to import third world labour that will accept whatever pay and conditions are on offer which means we must accept them also if we wish to eat and have a place to live.

complain, go on strike, riot , its no matter to the powers that be, they will just replace us. workers have no power in capitalist system.

50 years ago a married couple with 2 kids could get along fine with just the man working a normal blue collar job and the wife staying at home. they owned their home had 1 vacation a year and had a car if they were american. now both must work and probably renting and in debt.

Assuming you are in the US, there are numerous restrictions on the legal hiring of foreign workers. In fact, these restrictions are fairly stringent and impose a significant burden on employers. If you are talking about illegal immigrants, then if you work at a workplace where these are hired, you are free to report your employer to the authorities, as they are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

As for the point about both parents having to work... that is an inevitable result of women joining the workforce. Houses cost as much as people are willing to pay for them. If a family has more income, they'll compete with other families to buy the nicest house in the best location. Two incomes means more money to spend on that house. The transition from single income to dual income families is what has fueled the meteoric growth in housing prices over the last several decades.

+1000

If you don't like your job then work elsewhere, if you don't like your options then start your own business and offer your employees a better deal while working however you want...

[wasserman99]

Wherever you find convenient. You are free.

the ability to pick between between 2 employers who both offer the same thing or have nothing isnt freedom

before you answer learn a skill and find better paying job realise someone else must then fill original workers place in the low pay job and nothing is changed. maybe you personally do well from free market but you should understand the majority dont.

You are paid your discounted marginal value product. If your marginal value product, what you produce, is worth $1000, and the pure interest rate is 5%, you'll get $952. If someone is offering less, go to another employer. All that is in the unhampered free market. Once the government intervenes, you get much less, because of taxes. But then you have to blame the government, not employers.

This is not true. If you were to make $1,000 for the company you work for, the company will need to invest in both you and in equipment to help you make money for the company. Most workers do not know company specific processes and procedures that must be followed, so they are trained when they enter into a new position at a company, workers will almost always earn their normal wage during this training period. The company will also need to pay for the equipment that you use as part of your job, for example a computer or other machine that you use.

Another thing to remember is that most companies will provide some kind of paid time off (vacation and sick time) - two weeks off per year is generally the lowest this will ever be. Two weeks paid off per year works to almost 4% of the time you will be paid for, and this would eat up the majority of your "5%" discount rate.

[twiifm]

These guys talk as if unemployment or outsourcing doesn't exist

[Timetwister]

This is not true. If you were to make $1,000 for the company you work for, the company will need to invest in both you and in equipment to help you make money for the company. Most workers do not know company specific processes and procedures that must be followed, so they are trained when they enter into a new position at a company, workers will almost always earn their normal wage during this training period. The company will also need to pay for the equipment that you use as part of your job, for example a computer or other machine that you use.

Another thing to remember is that most companies will provide some kind of paid time off (vacation and sick time) - two weeks off per year is generally the lowest this will ever be. Two weeks paid off per year works to almost 4% of the time you will be paid for, and this would eat up the majority of your "5%" discount rate.

The same kind of calculation applies to the rest of factors of production. So with a 5% interest rate the company will pay a rent of $952 per month for a machine, or local, that they consider that will generate products that will be sold for $1000 in 1 year.

[MightyStorm]

I wonder what people would think about capitalism if it wasn't because governments decide what is taught in the schools (at least in Spain).

Lol. The best pic about anti-capitalistic flame.

[Bit_Happy]

I wonder what people would think about capitalism if it wasn't because governments decide what is taught in the schools (at least in Spain).

LOL smile  // Rebirth of a worthwhile old topic.

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Original Primary Questions

Do you think "capitalism" is to blame for many of the world's problems?
Do you know what real Capitalism is?