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Author Topic: The last few days on GLBSE  (Read 2867 times)
Nefario
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April 05, 2012, 09:17:45 PM
 #1

You're all aware of the thing that has been going on regarding Goat and the freezing of his account earlier this week. There are plenty of threads regarding the matter you can find the details there.

Let me put forward the reasons behind our actions.

Before explaining I would like to apologise to shareholders on GLBSE who were adversely effected, those most directly affected were TYGRR-BANK holders who's dividend payment was delayed as a result of Goats non-compliance to our request for ID, as per our terms and conditions.

GLBSE will make an extra dividend payment to TYGRR-BANK shareholders for all the drama and inconvenience over the last few days.

We have just moved to GLBSE2.0 which is an entirely different platform from 1.0 (a proven system). We hold a considerable amount of other peoples money(obviously not in our hot wallet, but offline), if you have an account on GLBSE this means your money. Until GLBSE 2.0 has been running for some time without issue I won't be able to relax, I am paranoid about security, it's something I lose sleep over(when I do sleep).

I'm unable to give exact details (internal GLBSE transactions are not public information) but there was suspicious activity involving Goats account, at the time I put it down to people (Goat) getting used to using the new system and playing around a little. Not long later I was warned about Goats activity on the forums (looking like a classic ponzi scheme).

I've never really dealt with Goat before this event so I didn't know anything about him, neither did anyone I knew.

My greatest concern was the security of shareholders funds on GLBSE, shortly after hundreds of login attempts had been made on Goats account. I immediately locked his account.

I also began to go over some of his threads and they did indeed look like a scam, the amounts involved (in GLBSE) are thousands of bitcoin, shareholders money, I was understandably concerned.

He then contacted me about not being able to get into his account, I asked for proof of ID, that I could verify his account while I got this sorted out (several forms including pictures of passports, phone numbers, work phone numbers, home address, I ask all these things of asset issuers when verifying their ID, all of which he eventually provided to a third party).

Goats reply and immediate actions knocked me back.
Quote
"...Also now my GLBSE account is as safe as this G-mail account I have used all over the world and who knows how many people have this password? You have got to be kidding. I need to pay people on GLBSE tomorrow but I'm wondering if it is really safe to make the account active at this point. You are not going to take responsibility well I am not going to either. To be this lax about security is negligence.

I’m in shock, really."
and

Quote
"Sorry about this but I am not going to take the fall for this if it goes sideways."

This was in reply to me informing him that he could now recover his account via his email(as well as asking for ID verification).

He then began to make posts all over the forum and opened a thread on his perceived worries of GLBSE security.

I admit this made me panic, it is the exact behavior of a scammer. A difficult possition to be in, if Tygrr turned out to be a scam what would it do to GLBSE? What would it do to bitcoin (another bitcoin scam)? To protect GLBSE users I made the choice to be proactive.

In an effort to reduce the possible damage I contacted First Pirate Savings and Trust and asked them to lock goats account so he couldn't withdraw funds (which would mean stolen funds if he was a scammer), until we got it sorted out. The request was denied.

And since that time everything has been all over the forums and most of it you know.

I apologise for overreacting, the combined pressure of launching GLBSE2.0 and the possibility of the Greatest Of All Thefts on GLBSE (though certainly not bitcoin) happening got to me, and I overstepped the bounds of what is appropriate action.

After everything is said and done I don't actually think Goat is a scammer, I would put down his odd behaviour to being...challenged.

I also regret disturbing him in any way shape or form as since I've unlocked his account he hasn't left me alone, making accusations that I'm trying to steal from him, stalking me on Skype, CONTACTING MY EMPLOYER to complain about me and GLBSE, insinuating that they (my employer) are also somehow implicated in this on the forums in what appears to be an attempt to get me fired.

Demanding payments:
Quote
"For the time I did not have access to the money the total will come up to be 11.5BTC."
and making ultimatums:
Quote
"I will give you 24 hours to respond before posting about this on the forum."

What has become abundantly clear from this incident is that the vast majority of the users of GLBSE have never read the terms and conditions for using GLBSE (we have had Terms and Conditions since July 2011). With some even claiming that there were none and then going on to claim that we violated our own terms.

As a result of this incident the way GLBSE is being run will have to change, it can no longer be kept as informal as we have previously enjoyed. It also means that I will not be able to comment as freely as I used to on this forum, this is something I will miss.

Thank you for you time and sorry for the drama.

Nefario


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notme
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April 05, 2012, 09:24:02 PM
 #2

Thanks for all you do.  Do what needs done to move forward.

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April 05, 2012, 09:28:41 PM
 #3

I would put down his odd behaviour to being...challenged.
+1 I have yet to do business with Goat, because in every single instance where things were either a) a misunderstanding, or b) didn't go his way, he has reacted irrationally and inappropriately, usually by fear-mongering and digging up information out of context and generally being a royal pain in the ass.

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April 05, 2012, 09:44:33 PM
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pita royal, made my day.
i think i order some honey from him to have a souvenir of the laugh you caused just now

btw if you can't make up your mind, go for the forest honey, usually darker and smells better

your ad here:
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April 06, 2012, 02:07:54 AM
 #5

This is typical of Goat. Don't take it personally.

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April 06, 2012, 02:36:28 AM
 #6

Nefario,

I think you concluding that Goat's offerings and behavior are consistent with "red flag behavior"  was entirely justified. I have had the very same concerns, very much accentuated by the Bot issue. I don't think your actions were justified entirely.

I think you made one action that is 100% not ok with me at all. I understand the reason, and the sentiment behind the action, but locking accounts (and seizing funds comes next, it's a slippery slope!) is the type of action I expect out of an overpolicing government.

Goat, no offense, but you're not doing yourself any favors by freaking out in public. How bad is the next outburst going to hurt your shareholders? I can't understand why people continue giving you money, but....I wish you the best. (I'm no HorseRider!!!!!!!!!1!, I don't think you're everyone's a scammer Grin You're just a high risk investment. That's cool Smiley

Nefario, honestly - trying to play banker police gives me serious question whether I want to sink one more millibit into GLBSE.

You asking Pirate to lock an account suggests that you would lock someone's GLBSE account on request That's fucked up.

Further, I don't think you can cover the losses from another disaster like this that doesn't go GLBSE's way. Your actions damaged shareholder value in my opinion. IMO, they still are because of this post!

You need to show that you are protected financially.

I don't think you can cover liabilities from a loss that is in fact GLBSE's fault.

A great deal of the lost shareholder value on Goat's issues is on your shoulders, Nefario. You continued the discussion, adding to the failing faith in Goat, then failed to stop trading while the exchange had a public disagreement with a customer! WTF?! We should hold you liable for the losses from your first post in Goat's "Is it safe" thread and the actual public resolution! (Another guy in your position might have been one of those buying up all the undervalued shares now that they're trashed)

It's not that I suspect you of evil. It's that you have not put yourself above and beyond the suspicion of reproach.

I think you personally should be bonded by multiple trusted high profile people. YourAnyone's word isn't worth the number of bitcoin in your control, IMO.

You might think that this issue or that issue is a risk to shareholders, but you are failing to realize that YOU represent the current biggest risk to all shareholders of the GLBSE. Cover Your Ass.

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April 06, 2012, 03:00:52 AM
 #7

Anyone's word isn't worth the number of bitcoin in your control, IMO.

is it that much?  only the balance available for buying shares is held by them.  if i only hold in there as much as i plan to need for trading i can limit my exposure.
guruvan
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April 06, 2012, 03:11:41 AM
 #8

no, my point isn't to be hard. It's to point out that words don't cover losses, and unless Nefario (or anyone) wants to show they can cover the losses in a disaster, they should seek additional coverage.

nothing personal AT ALL on Nefario.

You shouldn't be holding other people's money without some protection in case of loss. period.

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April 06, 2012, 03:18:13 AM
 #9

Interesting.

I wonder if you demand the same from exchanges such as MtGox, or perhaps E-Wallets? Do they have to have insurance on their hundreds of thousands of BTC as well for you to use them?

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guruvan
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April 06, 2012, 03:40:01 AM
 #10

Interesting.

I wonder if you demand the same from exchanges such as MtGox, or perhaps E-Wallets? Do they have to have insurance on their hundreds of thousands of BTC as well for you to use them?

I'd certainly recommend it. The exchange I'm using covered the losses from a large enough robbery to satisfy my  deposit concerns there. Appears plenty solvent. And, yeah, the exchanges are also more regulated, and have to answer to someone about the money.

I'm not the least bit concerned about some bullshit getting out of hand between and exchange owner and his customer, and tanking the price of BTC either. That's a big difference.

I'm not encouraging government regulation at all, but I think if we want to play like big boys, we need to act like them - and part of that is making sure that your liabilities are covered when you're responsible for other people's money.

EDIT: and in general, have you seen that most e-wallets are secure enough to trust in the first place? Money to trade is risked money in the first place.

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April 06, 2012, 03:46:01 AM
 #11

Well now I know who not to do business with.

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April 06, 2012, 03:47:21 AM
 #12

So, you trust Bitcoinica, which offers 10:1 leverage for anonymous accounts (guarantee to go in big BTC debt eventually) and had multiple break-ins, but will not trust GLBSE which was never broken in before and which has been running for longer?

If GLBSE gets hacked and covers its losses once, then you will begin to trust it?

EDIT: and in general, have you seen that most e-wallets are secure enough to trust in the first place? Money to trade is risked money in the first place.
What do you think do E-Wallets have that GLBSE is missing? Please tell me more. Your risk evaluation has certainly been comedic so far. Grin

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
guruvan
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April 06, 2012, 03:56:52 AM
 #13

So, you trust Bitcoinica, which offers 10:1 leverage for anonymous accounts (guarantee to go in big BTC debt eventually) and had multiple break-ins, but will not trust GLBSE which was never broken in before?

If GLBSE gets hacked and covers its losses once, then you will begin to trust it?

EDIT: and in general, have you seen that most e-wallets are secure enough to trust in the first place? Money to trade is risked money in the first place.
What do you think do E-Wallets have that GLBSE is missing? Please tell me more. Your risk evaluation has certainly been comedic so far. Grin

LOL. You're pretty funny too.

I have no concern about the security of the GLBSE website. I'm not concerned at all that Nefario will lose the money.

This isn't about technology. It's about relationships in business, and how they're handled. I'm not ok with losing my money because two people have to have a pissing match in public, with no regard to the investors. I'll take my chances with thieves, thanks. I know what to expect from them.

EDIT: For that matter, I haven't heard of zhoutong going to mtgox to see if he could have a customer's account locked - If he has, correct me, show me the evidence, and I'll probably find that reason to bail.


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April 06, 2012, 03:00:08 PM
 #14

what is all that security worth if any company can default at will without getting into any trouble? there is not much you can do against somebody saying their wallet has been stolen.

it is just not the time for serious money on glbse yet.

it is fun to play but you can easily be burned (the lif.b fiasco clearly showed that to me).


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finway
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April 06, 2012, 05:14:15 PM
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I still think the interest rate are too high, means risks are too high.

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April 06, 2012, 05:18:03 PM
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what is all that security worth if any company can default at will without getting into any trouble? there is not much you can do against somebody saying their wallet has been stolen.
Isn’t this what verification is trying to combat, so they cannot stay anonymous? If they say their wallet was stolen, it’s their fault for lax security and have to cover it obviously.

That’s why people should invest only with operators they actually trust.

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April 06, 2012, 07:39:05 PM
 #17

what is all that security worth if any company can default at will without getting into any trouble? there is not much you can do against somebody saying their wallet has been stolen.
Isn’t this what verification is trying to combat, so they cannot stay anonymous? If they say their wallet was stolen, it’s their fault for lax security and have to cover it obviously.

That’s why people should invest only with operators they actually trust.

for peter lambert, operator of the horribly failed lif funds all personal information is available. yet it helps nothing.


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April 06, 2012, 11:56:36 PM
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what is all that security worth if any company can default at will without getting into any trouble? there is not much you can do against somebody saying their wallet has been stolen.
Isn’t this what verification is trying to combat, so they cannot stay anonymous? If they say their wallet was stolen, it’s their fault for lax security and have to cover it obviously.

That’s why people should invest only with operators they actually trust.

for peter lambert, operator of the horribly failed lif funds all personal information is available. yet it helps nothing.



So what do people suggest as a solution. I see people complaining that GLBSE isn't doing enough, and other people complaining that it is trying to do too much. What's the balance? What needs to happen to make people comfortable? I'd love to hear what people think.

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April 07, 2012, 01:19:30 AM
 #19

what is all that security worth if any company can default at will without getting into any trouble? there is not much you can do against somebody saying their wallet has been stolen.
Isn’t this what verification is trying to combat, so they cannot stay anonymous? If they say their wallet was stolen, it’s their fault for lax security and have to cover it obviously.

That’s why people should invest only with operators they actually trust.

for peter lambert, operator of the horribly failed lif funds all personal information is available. yet it helps nothing.



So what do people suggest as a solution. I see people complaining that GLBSE isn't doing enough, and other people complaining that it is trying to do too much. What's the balance? What needs to happen to make people comfortable? I'd love to hear what people think.

It seems to me that GLBSE or similar can offer real value without verifying companies in any way whatsoever. Let the companies figure out how to build reputations. It might be by levering forum reputation, already running other longstanding business, meeting people in meatspace and pitching your ideas then telling them that they can invest via GLBSE, etc.

As long as the market is clear that they make no promise except that they will care for funds in their control and provide usable software continuously it seems fine too me.

Now if someone found a way to filter for 'non scams' that would be great, but it doesn't have to be the same entity as the market.

To avoid what is essentially spam the exchange could charge a largish fee or deposit for companies before they can make an offering.

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ColdHardMetal
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April 07, 2012, 01:49:44 AM
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It seems to me that GLBSE or similar can offer real value without verifying companies in any way whatsoever. Let the companies figure out how to build reputations. It might be by levering forum reputation, already running other longstanding business, meeting people in meatspace and pitching your ideas then telling them that they can invest via GLBSE, etc.

That has always been our intention. To provide a platform for raising capital. We hoped that a 3rd party would step into the role of verifying/evaluating/rating issuers, but that just doesn't seem to have happened. It really doesn't make much sense for the exchange to do it at all from an objective impartiality point of view. The NYSE doesn't run Moodys or S&P.


As long as the market is clear that they make no promise except that they will care for funds in their control and provide usable software continuously it seems fine too me.

That's right in our terms and conditions, and has been for almost a year.


Now if someone found a way to filter for 'non scams' that would be great, but it doesn't have to be the same entity as the market.

That would be great. As I said I don't think it really _can_ be the same entity as the market operator for any such rating to have true credibility.

To avoid what is essentially spam the exchange could charge a largish fee or deposit for companies before they can make an offering.

That is a step that has been implemented. Originally listing was free, but that really didn't work as it made the barrier to entry for running a scam asset too low. Even sale of 1 share and then running was profitable for a scammer in that model, so it had to go.


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