Dawkins: Immoral Not To Abort Down’s Syndrome Child

[Jesu]

I like Dawkins for the most part but he doesn't handle some situations well and this was one of them. I don't think he chose the right words here at all. It's definitely not immoral to knowingly bring a Downs child into the world and that would be quite offensive to those that did.

[Gervais]

Life begins at conception.

Depends what you define as "life". Are you religious?

It is not her body. It's the baby's life. Sometimes, it's not always about a woman's body.

It is her body and therefore she has ultimate say in the matter. I'm sure you would hold a much different opinion were you a woman.

That being said, aborting a child due to severe defect is a matter left up to the medical professionals, not 'thinkers' and 'educated' peoples who believes morality and ethics is their domain (LOL).

And yet you are here thinking this is your domain.

[johny08]

you are here in the bitcoin forum.

so here your answer: its like giving birth to a broken coin. Would you do it? Or would you change it? No emotions.

[shogdite]

Not sure what the outrage is here, aborting a child with Down's Syndrone is completely acceptable from my point of view. It's the choice of the mother (and father) whether they want to terminate their fetus.

[Gervais]

you are here in the bitcoin forum.

so here your answer: its like giving birth to a broken coin. Would you do it? Or would you change it? No emotions.

Not really a fair or valid comparison. There's also a difference between 'changing' something and terminating it.

Not sure what the outrage is here, aborting a child with Down's Syndrone is completely acceptable from my point of view. It's the choice of the mother (and father) whether they want to terminate their fetus.

The outrage is probably down to the language he used. Maybe it is acceptable, but I think its unnaceptable to say it's immoral not to do it.

[Honeypot]

Life begins at conception.

Depends what you define as "life". Are you religious?

It is not her body. It's the baby's life. Sometimes, it's not always about a woman's body.

It is her body and therefore she has ultimate say in the matter. I'm sure you would hold a much different opinion were you a woman.

That being said, aborting a child due to severe defect is a matter left up to the medical professionals, not 'thinkers' and 'educated' peoples who believes morality and ethics is their domain (LOL).

And yet you are here thinking this is your domain.

Once egg and sperm merge and begin the process, that is the beginning of human life. Human egg and sperm merging does not produce anything other than a human being. What does religion have anything to do with this most basic fact? Do you believe any belief, including that of women or religious reasons, is grounds for changing facts? Your feelings are worthless when it comes to deciding what defines life. Try not to over step your bounds.

Where do you get the idea that the baby, another human being, is yours to decide whether to live or die? Where do you get the bizarre idea that the baby is 'your' body? What the baby is is another human being - not a piece of your own tissue. Your feelings based on your gender is not a basis for deciding anything - much less that of life and death of another.

'Feel differently if you were a woman' - shall I tell you that it is also very possible to justify rape and violation of woman on the basis that 'you are not a man and therefore would not understand'? It is, afterall, genetically inspired gender instinct for a man to impregnate as many woman as possible. The fact that you cannot understand this idea and dared to air such inane 'argument' of being a woman shows how pathetically shallow your 'understanding' is - made worse by the fact that your tone betrays a degree of spoiled attitude belief that you know anything.

You are quite correct, because this is my domain when fools decide arbitrarily to whine, bitch and moan that they somehow are above facts based on their feelings.

It is because pregnancy is such a complex, delicate issue that rape is a grieveous crime - not only does it destroy a woman's ability to choose, but also places a blameless life in an extremely untenable position of being born unwillingly and unwanted, burdens which the new life did nothing to deserve save for the fact that someone forced themselves on the woman.

I stated that there are cases when abortion is permitted, for reasons that are both painful but obvious.

This is not a woman's rights issue to begin with. You have no rights to decide anything about life of another, no matter your role in the process. Ultimately, this is what makes rape and incest such heavy crimes.

Try to be more of a woman. You sound like a girl that has yet to fully mature into something real.  

[maurya78]

This is a tough, highly emotive topic
I have healthy kids but I couldn't truthfully say what we would have done if we had been told at a post natal stage that our baby has Downs

[blablahblah]

Life begins at conception.

Depends what you define as "life". Are you religious?

It is not her body. It's the baby's life. Sometimes, it's not always about a woman's body.

It is her body and therefore she has ultimate say in the matter. I'm sure you would hold a much different opinion were you a woman.

That being said, aborting a child due to severe defect is a matter left up to the medical professionals, not 'thinkers' and 'educated' peoples who believes morality and ethics is their domain (LOL).

And yet you are here thinking this is your domain.

Once egg and sperm merge and begin the process, that is the beginning of human life. Human egg and sperm merging does not produce anything other than a human being.

But sperm and eggs have human chromosomes and genes even before they merge, just a slightly different number. In that sense, the focus on Down's is a kind of Trojan Horse. If you want to defend life with chromosomal abnormalities, then explain why masturbating is not mass murder, unlike abortions, which are murder.

[Gervais]

Once egg and sperm merge and begin the process, that is the beginning of human life. Human egg and sperm merging does not produce anything other than a human being. What does religion have anything to do with this most basic fact? Do you believe any belief, including that of women or religious reasons, is grounds for changing facts? Your feelings are worthless when it comes to deciding what defines life. Try not to over step your bounds.

Maybe that is the definition of when life starts, but what does that have to do not allowing abortion? And your feelings are worthless when it to deciding what defines life. Try not to over step your bounds.

Where do you get the idea that the baby, another human being, is yours to decide whether to live or die? Where do you get the bizarre idea that the baby is 'your' body? What the baby is is another human being - not a piece of your own tissue. Your feelings based on your gender is not a basis for deciding anything - much less that of life and death of another.

Where do you get the idea that it isnt?

'Feel differently if you were a woman' - shall I tell you that it is also very possible to justify rape and violation of woman on the basis that 'you are not a man and therefore would not understand'?

It's really not. Maybe for you it is though.

You are quite correct, because this is my domain when fools decide arbitrarily to whine, bitch and moan that they somehow are above facts based on their feelings.

I find this ironic considering you continuously confuse your own perverse opinions as facts and deal with anybody else's opinion you disagree with with childish insults and mocking as if that's your only real argument here.

[Honeypot]

Once egg and sperm merge and begin the process, that is the beginning of human life. Human egg and sperm merging does not produce anything other than a human being. What does religion have anything to do with this most basic fact? Do you believe any belief, including that of women or religious reasons, is grounds for changing facts? Your feelings are worthless when it comes to deciding what defines life. Try not to over step your bounds.

Maybe that is the definition of when life starts, but what does that have to do not allowing abortion? And your feelings are worthless when it to deciding what defines life. Try not to over step your bounds.

Where do you get the idea that the baby, another human being, is yours to decide whether to live or die? Where do you get the bizarre idea that the baby is 'your' body? What the baby is is another human being - not a piece of your own tissue. Your feelings based on your gender is not a basis for deciding anything - much less that of life and death of another.

Where do you get the idea that it isnt?

'Feel differently if you were a woman' - shall I tell you that it is also very possible to justify rape and violation of woman on the basis that 'you are not a man and therefore would not understand'?

It's really not. Maybe for you it is though.

You are quite correct, because this is my domain when fools decide arbitrarily to whine, bitch and moan that they somehow are above facts based on their feelings.

I find this ironic considering you continuously confuse your own perverse opinions as facts and deal with anybody else's opinion you disagree with with childish insults and mocking as if that's your only real argument here.

This is why a young girl shouldn't try to argue. You are simply incapable of seeing the most basic of objective facts and gets mouthy when you should learn to watch your lips.

I can guarantee you I have as much right to rape and violate as you think you have the right to abort another life. You better recognize the incongruity of gender instinct driven idea that you are entitled to anything - you have no idea what you are getting yourself into.

No man or woman is above having to answer to certain standards of respect. Those like you who are incapable of rising to the occasion because they lack as a woman/man are simply that much less valuable as an individual, and your opinions such as they are, are useless.

Lastly, the fact that something pokes at your soft, spoiled 'sensibilities' doesn't make them insults. It's very predictable you are practicing a great deal of cognitive dissonance to attempt to warp facts to your liking.

A bitch like you needs to check herself, what with that spoiled attitude that's soft as a jell-o. All anyone can really hear in your arguments just boils down to a 5 year old's 'nuh uh'. You present no arguments, only opinions. There is a difference, but I doubt you even knew what you are saying when you started running your mouth.

[Rooothlespredators]

I believe life starts even before the sperm and the egg meet.
When you think life came from nothing, you tend to think in ways like that.  

That's atheistic morality for you. Morality defined by those with power. If it’s an inconvenience, if it gets in the way, if it would make me feel bad to look at it... kill it.
This dude makes me sick.

what in the fuck? Do you hold a funeral when your woman has her period and then hold a memorial every time you jizz for the millions upon millions of lost life that comes spewing forth from your balls? I mean honestly I don't mean to be harsh but you are just as bad in your thought process to the other extreme and ridiculous.

[painlord2k]

I think people should be free to have a DS baby, if they don't want abort it.
It is debatable if it is immoral to bring someone that will always be dependant on others for his/her welfare.

What I think is totally immoral is, IMHO, delivering the baby with the understanding the costs associated to his welfare will be paid (mainly) by others.
It is immoral to force others to pay for your moral or ethical choices making easier for you to make these choices.
If a mother (the father a little to say in this matter given the existing laws) want deliver a DS baby when she have the option to abort him/her, she MUST be forced to bear the costs of his welfare until the day the newborn die (even if it is 20 or 40 years after the mother).

We are all gays with someone else ass, generous with someone else money and virtuous when it cost nothing to be so.

[Rooothlespredators]

I believe life starts even before the sperm and the egg meet.
When you think life came from nothing, you tend to think in ways like that.  

That's atheistic morality for you. Morality defined by those with power. If it’s an inconvenience, if it gets in the way, if it would make me feel bad to look at it... kill it.
This dude makes me sick.

what in the fuck? Do you hold a funeral when your woman has her period and then hold a memorial every time you jizz for the millions upon millions of lost life that comes spewing forth from your balls? I mean honestly I don't mean to be harsh but you are just as bad in your thought process to the other extreme and ridiculous.

oh god I came back to this and have to argue more. Dude that is not atheist morality AT ALL. Atheist morality is just morality not based on religion and that your current actions aren't influenced by what (could) happens to the soul in afterlife but that does not mean a lack of a moral code. Just as all religious people don't have the same morals all atheists don't either. Most atheists's morality is based on the golden rule as well- treat people how they want to be treated. Atheists that argue for abortion of the Down's Syndrome child argue that the world is one in which they will just suffer- the decision to abort it depends not only on the inconvencience to the family and society but to the fetus's welfare. Just like really do you honestly think what you said? That all atheists are like psycho??

[crocko]

IMO if you aren't prepared for a serious task - to take care for life for a sick human being, you shall go to the doctor immediately.

[BitCoinNutJob]

Abort it and try again - ok fine fair enough some might have this opinon how can you argue with someone's opinion right?

It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice - haha ok some now you are making an objective judgement, seems like a troll comment to sell more books?

[blablahblah]

...

This is why a young girl shouldn't try to argue. You are simply incapable of seeing the most basic of objective facts and gets mouthy when you should learn to watch your lips.

I can guarantee you I have as much right to rape and violate as you think you have the right to abort another life. You better recognize the incongruity of gender instinct driven idea that you are entitled to anything - you have no idea what you are getting yourself into.

No man or woman is above having to answer to certain standards of respect. Those like you who are incapable of rising to the occasion because they lack as a woman/man are simply that much less valuable as an individual, and your opinions such as they are, are useless.

Lastly, the fact that something pokes at your soft, spoiled 'sensibilities' doesn't make them insults. It's very predictable you are practicing a great deal of cognitive dissonance to attempt to warp facts to your liking.

A bitch like you needs to check herself, what with that spoiled attitude that's soft as a jell-o. All anyone can really hear in your arguments just boils down to a 5 year old's 'nuh uh'. You present no arguments, only opinions. There is a difference, but I doubt you even knew what you are saying when you started running your mouth.

 

I knew I had you on ignore for a good reason, but I can't remember exactly. You were probably trying to scam newbies on the main forum. Now, reply to my earlier post, sperm murderer.

[311]

I dont think Honeypot has tried to scam anyone... yet, though it wouldn't surprise me if he did. He just likes to post really racist and exenophobic stuff then cries hysterically about it like a scolded child when someone puts him in his place.

[Wilikon]

http://www.progressivestoday.com/dawkins-almost-apologizes-for-abortion-comments/

Feds Still Studying Why Lesbians Are Obese
Update: Total government funding now $2.87 million
http://freebeacon.com/issues/feds-still-studying-why-lesbians-are-obese/

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I wonder if Dawkins Moral Implication could be applied to this subject.... 

 

[kuroman]

His right of opinion should be respected, but I totaly disagree and find it immoral to kill because of a disease or else why not kill, kids and full grown up when we are at it.
Why did I say kill instead of abortion because, unless I'm mistaken, to be able to diagnosed of Downs syndrome the age of the fetus should be advanced and nearing birth

[painlord2k]

We are able, now, to diagnose DS (and others genetic diseases) just with a sample of blood from the mother (because there alway be some cells from the baby in the blood of the mother).
The costs are a bit high but not as high as a team of technicians and surgeons to do an amniocentesis.