Why we love the rich and hate the poor

[sana8410]

Going all the way back to Smith in 1776 a "vibrant" middle class is required for any capitalist system to work. That is a large part of what makes capitalism unique, and why it is generally considered to be the most just economic system. For it to work the majority of your money has to be out there in the economy among the middle and lower classes circulating. If you end up in the situation where we are, with the vast majority of the money concentrated in the hands of a few, the system breaks down.

Look at the recent economic crisis. The entire crisis was essentially a recognition that pricing discovery had broken down completely. At the end of the day any free market system at its basest level is nothing BUT a price discovery mechanism. If price discovery has broken down your entire economy is essentially a farce...it is not doing its primary job.

In this case the break down was essentially caused by investment level hyperinflation. Econ 101...too much money chasing too few goods leads to inflation. The same thing happens with investments as happens with a loaf of bread at the corner supermarket. If you end up with too much capital in your top 20%, where that money tends to be put into investments instead of spent against goods and services, you end up in a situation where the real economy stagnates due to lack of wealth while investments get expensive because there is so much capital chasing so few investment opportunities.

In the past this has been self correcting to some degree because of the limited investment opportunities. Today we have the technology to create and track a multi trillion dollar derivatives market which allows us to artificially leverage the relatively few investment opportunities out there that are actually backed by hard assets.

It will eventually end up "correcting" anyway, the odds of our economy surviving it are just FAR worse than they have been in the past.

I want to note that I'm not even sure why you arguing for a "Robin Hood" type tax system. The argument against taxing the rich always boils down to "we shouldn't tax the rich to give to the poor". Well I don't want to speak for you but I bet he generally agrees. Most people agree some sort of welfare is always needed to hope those who would never be able to help themselves (such as the mentally handicapped) or those who are down on their luck; as an example.

Hell not I am not arguing for a robin hood type system. I have no desire to tax the rich and give it to the poor. I want to tax the rich and PAY OUR BILLS WITH IT.

We can make a logical argument for it (the wealthy are the only ones who can AFFORD to pay) or we can make a moralistic argument (they hold 90% of the wealth, derived 90% of the benefit, they should pay 90% of the bill) or we can just shrug and say "sometimes you just get screwed". I don't really care. I don't want my children to have to grow up in a third world country, and that is where America is headed if we don't do something about our fiscal problems.

This is why economic stupidity annoys me so much right now. We have serious, serious problems and by all accounts we have a very limited window in which to fix them. This is SERIOUS with nothing less than the very survival of our nation at stake. This is bar none the biggest clear and present danger that the US has ever faced.

Alternatively you can take the Steve Forbes approach which is to drive us off a cliff while yelling "See you in Hell !!!".

Seriously though, this is our number one threat at the moment and it probably was the true number threat back in the early 2000s as well. You seem to think Americans somewhat get it, I'm not so convinced. Just because 80% of people think we have a problem doesn't mean they are willing to fix it or can identify the problem. I mean come on, you basically have 50% of people that want to balance the budget AND are willing to cut nothing and not pay a dime more to do it. Another 30% are only willing to cut defense. I suppose they are counting on God to swoop in and save them but I got a hard time believing the big man is a fan of selfish stupidity.

[zolace]

There is really not time to listen to nitwits argue that decreasing taxes will increase revenue when that theory has been absolutely, unquestionably, and unarguably proved WRONG a decade ago.

Just today all ten (the rest are dead) former chairmen of the White House Council of Economic Advisers issued a letter calling on politicians to adopt the deficit reduction committees recommendations, citing the current deficit as a "severe threat that calls for serious and immediate action". They predict an economic crisis that "Dwarfs the crisis of 2008".

And we have politicians pandering to stupid people who are arguing in favor of fairy tale economics.

[zolace]

Going all the way back to Smith in 1776 a "vibrant" middle class is required for any capitalist system to work. That is a large part of what makes capitalism unique, and why it is generally considered to be the most just economic system. For it to work the majority of your money has to be out there in the economy among the middle and lower classes circulating. If you end up in the situation where we are, with the vast majority of the money concentrated in the hands of a few, the system breaks down.

Look at the recent economic crisis. The entire crisis was essentially a recognition that pricing discovery had broken down completely. At the end of the day any free market system at its basest level is nothing BUT a price discovery mechanism. If price discovery has broken down your entire economy is essentially a farce...it is not doing its primary job.

In this case the break down was essentially caused by investment level hyperinflation. Econ 101...too much money chasing too few goods leads to inflation. The same thing happens with investments as happens with a loaf of bread at the corner supermarket. If you end up with too much capital in your top 20%, where that money tends to be put into investments instead of spent against goods and services, you end up in a situation where the real economy stagnates due to lack of wealth while investments get expensive because there is so much capital chasing so few investment opportunities.

In the past this has been self correcting to some degree because of the limited investment opportunities. Today we have the technology to create and track a multi trillion dollar derivatives market which allows us to artificially leverage the relatively few investment opportunities out there that are actually backed by hard assets.

It will eventually end up "correcting" anyway, the odds of our economy surviving it are just FAR worse than they have been in the past.

I want to note that I'm not even sure why you arguing for a "Robin Hood" type tax system. The argument against taxing the rich always boils down to "we shouldn't tax the rich to give to the poor". Well I don't want to speak for you but I bet he generally agrees. Most people agree some sort of welfare is always needed to hope those who would never be able to help themselves (such as the mentally handicapped) or those who are down on their luck; as an example.

Hell not I am not arguing for a robin hood type system. I have no desire to tax the rich and give it to the poor. I want to tax the rich and PAY OUR BILLS WITH IT.

We can make a logical argument for it (the wealthy are the only ones who can AFFORD to pay) or we can make a moralistic argument (they hold 90% of the wealth, derived 90% of the benefit, they should pay 90% of the bill) or we can just shrug and say "sometimes you just get screwed". I don't really care. I don't want my children to have to grow up in a third world country, and that is where America is headed if we don't do something about our fiscal problems.

This is why economic stupidity annoys me so much right now. We have serious, serious problems and by all accounts we have a very limited window in which to fix them. This is SERIOUS with nothing less than the very survival of our nation at stake. This is bar none the biggest clear and present danger that the US has ever faced.

Alternatively you can take the Steve Forbes approach which is to drive us off a cliff while yelling "See you in Hell !!!".

Seriously though, this is our number one threat at the moment and it probably was the true number threat back in the early 2000s as well. You seem to think Americans somewhat get it, I'm not so convinced. Just because 80% of people think we have a problem doesn't mean they are willing to fix it or can identify the problem. I mean come on, you basically have 50% of people that want to balance the budget AND are willing to cut nothing and not pay a dime more to do it. Another 30% are only willing to cut defense. I suppose they are counting on God to swoop in and save them but I got a hard time believing the big man is a fan of selfish stupidity.

The situation is self evident. No reasonable person can take a look at our fiscal situation and draw any conclusion except that our nation is in mortal danger. I guess I just feel like facing those consequences, people should actually try to understand the problem as opposed to just spewing ridiculous nonsense. It is not like these people are even advancing valid alternative theories. They are just spouting gibberish and the XXXXXX in washington cant see past the next election, so they pander to these imbeciles.

[Poorri]

It's just the halo effect. Rich = positive halo.

[MightyBTC]

Love see no poor or rich,people like you made this things up and you are the ones who suffer.

[SwingBTC]

Because they think they can become friends with the rich guys and they think they will be nice to them, but they dont see that they are cunts.

[Ayers]

because you think they deserve it, instead the poor are stupid or something, instead they are just not lucky enough

[Damnyo]

because you think they deserve it, instead the poor are stupid or something, instead they are just not lucky enough

Way too legit. This upsets rich people, they think are special butterflies when they are just lucky.

[bittown]

because you think they deserve it, instead the poor are stupid or something, instead they are just not lucky enough

Way too legit. This upsets rich people, they think are special butterflies when they are just lucky.

Not all the rich people were lucky and not all the poor people were unlucky, the skill also matters.

[Ringumbau]

because you think they deserve it, instead the poor are stupid or something, instead they are just not lucky enough

Way too legit. This upsets rich people, they think are special butterflies when they are just lucky.

Not all the rich people were lucky and not all the poor people were unlucky, the skill also matters.

Define skill.

[botany]

because you think they deserve it, instead the poor are stupid or something, instead they are just not lucky enough

Way too legit. This upsets rich people, they think are special butterflies when they are just lucky.

Not all the rich people were lucky and not all the poor people were unlucky, the skill also matters.

Define skill.

A rich guy who is not smart enough will wile away his entire fortune. A fool and his money are soon parted.

[Ayers]

because you think they deserve it, instead the poor are stupid or something, instead they are just not lucky enough

Way too legit. This upsets rich people, they think are special butterflies when they are just lucky.

Not all the rich people were lucky and not all the poor people were unlucky, the skill also matters.

tell me more about the skill of the sons of the rich guy, there aren't new rich guys, we are talking about the established one, those are all lucky

[giveBTCpls]

because you think they deserve it, instead the poor are stupid or something, instead they are just not lucky enough

Way too legit. This upsets rich people, they think are special butterflies when they are just lucky.

Not all the rich people were lucky and not all the poor people were unlucky, the skill also matters.

Define skill.

A rich guy who is not smart enough will wile away his entire fortune. A fool and his money are soon parted.

Ability to gain skill and perform great = predisponed by genetic and environmental factors = aka LUCK.

[wasserman99]

because you think they deserve it, instead the poor are stupid or something, instead they are just not lucky enough

Way too legit. This upsets rich people, they think are special butterflies when they are just lucky.

Not all the rich people were lucky and not all the poor people were unlucky, the skill also matters.

tell me more about the skill of the sons of the rich guy, there aren't new rich guys, we are talking about the established one, those are all lucky

A person with a lot of skills can teach his skills to his son, and be a good roll model to him so his son can understand the value of hard work and perseverance.

There are a lot of family businesses when the children ran the business that the parents used to run because the parents were able to give their children enough exposure to the ins and outs of how to properly run the business and taught them the skills necessary to do so.

[solsticez]

I know many poor friends who have nice skills in their job but without the right contacts they can't be promoted.

[tinof]

because you think they deserve it, instead the poor are stupid or something, instead they are just not lucky enough

Way too legit. This upsets rich people, they think are special butterflies when they are just lucky.

Not all the rich people were lucky and not all the poor people were unlucky, the skill also matters.

tell me more about the skill of the sons of the rich guy, there aren't new rich guys, we are talking about the established one, those are all lucky

A person with a lot of skills can teach his skills to his son, and be a good roll model to him so his son can understand the value of hard work and perseverance.

There are a lot of family businesses when the children ran the business that the parents used to run because the parents were able to give their children enough exposure to the ins and outs of how to properly run the business and taught them the skills necessary to do so.

Wealthy family in general do not keep the wealth for more than a few generation. Wealthy kids tend to be spoiled and parents having marriage problems which keep propagating into future generation.

[Bitbirdhunt]

because you think they deserve it, instead the poor are stupid or something, instead they are just not lucky enough

Way too legit. This upsets rich people, they think are special butterflies when they are just lucky.

Rich people were also once poor who got enough opportunities and good luck to get through the process of evolving through poor to rich

[finlof]

Hell not I am not arguing for a robin hood type system. I have no desire to tax the rich and give it to the poor. I want to tax the rich and PAY OUR BILLS WITH IT.

We can make a logical argument for it (the wealthy are the only ones who can AFFORD to pay) or we can make a moralistic argument (they hold 90% of the wealth, derived 90% of the benefit, they should pay 90% of the bill) or we can just shrug and say "sometimes you just get screwed". I don't really care. I don't want my children to have to grow up in a third world country, and that is where America is headed if we don't do something about our fiscal problems.

This is why economic stupidity annoys me so much right now. We have serious, serious problems and by all accounts we have a very limited window in which to fix them. This is SERIOUS with nothing less than the very survival of our nation at stake. This is bar none the biggest clear and present danger that the US has ever faced.

What bills do you want the taxes of the rich to pay?  i guarantee that unless other STRICT spending measures are put in place 1st any additional money that is brought in will be spent in an unwise and non-beneficial way.  i'm middle class.  I work hard and enjoy a modest income.  but i hate paying taxes as much as the next guy.  specifically when I see tax money wasted (and we all know there are many ways to waste tax money) it burns me up.  I can only imagine if my tax bill were higher how much more "burned up" I would be by my money going to wasted things, REGARDLESS of how much I extra I was making/keeping.  people who dont get mad when money is wasted are bad people.  I work for my money and therefore want to see it go to good use, whether I'm the one spending it or not.  those of you that assume that the "rich" are not working for their money are blind.  I agree there are some who have money and are worthless (Kardashians anyone?) but like others have said if you have money and are a fool then it's only a matter of time before you lose it.  that's why we all hear stories of people that win the lottery and then are back in the broke house a few years later.  and it wasnt because now that they had money they decided to help the poor.  it was because they werent smart with the money.  if I were in charge of the lotteries I would make it mandatory to go through a certain number of hours of financial classes/consultation/etc before distributing amounts over 250000.  cause if by some sweet miracle i came in to 250000 i would be able to be debt free and do something I liked doing for a living (like teaching high school calculus) instead of being a computer consultant.  instead my older brother and I run a business that employs 18 total people and I make a good living doing something I dont really enjoy.  my younger brother, on the other hand, has good computer skills but WONT use them to make money and instead lives off the government or kindness (in other words ignorance) of strangers.  he says he doesnt enjoy it and it "hurts" him too much to do something he doesnt like doing.  too many of our "poor" are in fact lazy or spoiled as much/more so than the "rich kids" whom they despise.  i've spent 2 years living in a 3rd world country seeing how the real poor live, so forgive me for not having sympathy for most of America's "poor" cause they are in fact not poor in the least.

so take my tax money.  and while I wish it would be used for wise purposes - roads, infrastructure, small to moderate government, military, quality education (yeah right), services and help for the disabled, etc - dont expect me to pay more than I can get away with legally.  and am I going to feel guilty about eating a filet mignon now and then?  Hell no, cause I earned it.

/rant

[wasserman99]

because you think they deserve it, instead the poor are stupid or something, instead they are just not lucky enough

Way too legit. This upsets rich people, they think are special butterflies when they are just lucky.

Not all the rich people were lucky and not all the poor people were unlucky, the skill also matters.

tell me more about the skill of the sons of the rich guy, there aren't new rich guys, we are talking about the established one, those are all lucky

A person with a lot of skills can teach his skills to his son, and be a good roll model to him so his son can understand the value of hard work and perseverance.

There are a lot of family businesses when the children ran the business that the parents used to run because the parents were able to give their children enough exposure to the ins and outs of how to properly run the business and taught them the skills necessary to do so.

Wealthy family in general do not keep the wealth for more than a few generation. Wealthy kids tend to be spoiled and parents having marriage problems which keep propagating into future generation.

I think this is a sterotype. I would stand by my above argument as to how wealth is passed onto generation from generation. if wealth does not get passed onto a rich person's children it will be because they are spoiled.

[Omikifuse]

The riches have their ways to make sure their own needs will be fullfiled, also have the means to get all their rights(lawers, contacts, etc..). The poors don't have money to hire lawers and don't have organization.

It is not about love, it is about who have more ways to do stuff