GLBSE - TOS Discussion Thread.

[stochastic]

I think the TOS seems fine.  Maybe having a notice to review the TOS whenever they are changed or updated.  Unless I missed it, you should probably have something about using arbitration through whatever third party instead of suing in court.

As for identification, why not just destroy it after the information is confirmed?

As for the risk of GLBSE getting shut down, have a database backup that is located on a TOR hidden service in case the domain name is seized.

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[mila]

just btw, for the record

well, the site uses a field labelled email, which is a unique identifier of a person and falls under personal data protection (at least in EU)
a brief disclaimer would be nice to have to comply with that stuff.
something along the lines:
- what data is collected (email, logs?),
- how the data collected will be used (opt in email notifications, important messages from site administrator on updates of ...)
- no other use (no sharing of data with third parties nor marketing etc)
- who is the data processor and how the data can be viewed and rectified
// it's all in the personal data protection regulation, i already started to collect some notes on the subject
// it is relevant even if run outside of EU as it concerns its citizens ... could be dealt with in a link from a footer to a static page with appropriate text

it is not about the ID verification of asset issuers
this applies just because of the email is entered and is used while login
// i spent few months studying this (weird hobby some time ago)

+ there's the cookie directive, if a site wants to store a cookie on user's pc it needs user's informed approval for this
// can be fined up to 1/2M eur; i'm more familiar with the data protection then the cookie stuff as i stopped following it 2yrs ago and the cookie stuff is newer

[ColdHardMetal]

Another TOS issue has been brought up by some of our stakeholders and I'd like to solicit some input.

The concern is what happens if someone tries to launch an asset directed at raising funds for a "vice" related project such as drugs or prostitution.

On one hand we want a free market, but on the other hand we don't want to paint a target on our back either. Why give the powers that be such an easy excuse to seek to shut the exchange down?

To that end we would like to include some provision in our TOS permitting us to deny listing to a venture related to this type of project. The problem as I see it is the wording. A blanket ban of anything "illegal" is pretty laughable, but I don't think we want to try and enumerate the specific ventures of concern either. That just creates loopholes that some visionary pimp/dealer can exploit, and that become a pain to fill later on.

Any thoughts on how to approach this?



On a personal note I have no real moral qualms about people doing whatever. However, the fiduciary duty I feel I have to the various groups of people involved in the exchange, does make me think it's in all of our long term best interests to forbid these types of things in an effort to avoid being shut down via this vector.

[N12]

Drugs and prostitution are not illegal everywhere. What laws specifically are you trying not to violate? Where is GLBSE registered?

Where are drugs legal? I don’t know of any jurisdiction allowing any besides alcohol, tobacco and cannabis.

My suggestions are to either

a) manually screen new assets before they IPO and give/deny permission (basically deny anything that is highly likely to get GLBSE in trouble)

or

b) pick a jurisdiction and enforce it according to its law

[ColdHardMetal]

Drugs and prostitution are not illegal everywhere. What laws specifically are you trying not to violate? Where is GLBSE registered?

As you know Goat, GLBSE isn't registered anywhere and has never claimed to be. It's a little odd you keep asking a question you already know the answer to.


While drugs and prostitution may not be illegal everywhere, I feel confident in assuming that in the vast majority of jurisdictions they are. Such activities also tend to be a hot button topic for law enforcement agencies, so why provoke that kind of attention if we don't need to?

[ColdHardMetal]

a) manually screen new assets before they IPO and give/deny permission (basically deny anything that is highly likely to get GLBSE in trouble)

I think that is how it would be handled, but it would be nice to have some guidelines in the TOS clarifying what is and isn;t allowed.

or

b) pick a jurisdiction and enforce it according to its law

That's an idea with some merit. It could potentially backfire a bit as well. Maybe not. I need to think about that some.

[Nefario]

Particularly relating to drugs and prostitution various governments around the world tend to work together to take action against high profile targets. Often the only purpose of this is for good news coverage for the governments involved (the recent action against the farmers market operating from the Tor network as an excellent example).

I believe that there is no better method of getting GLBSE shut down and it's operators jailed (i.e. me)  than to allow "vice" assets to be listed or traded. I believe this represents an incredible risk to GLBSE.

I believe in the free market, I also believe that participants in the market may do so on their own terms.

I don't think choosing a jurisdiction to operate under is the correct choice for now, I think that should be done only when it has to (or when GLBSE can afford to).

I also don't think that GLBSE should spell out what is and is not allowed, because as has been mentioned by ColdHardMetal this will leave loopholes that we will forever be plastering over.

I think the suggestion by Blitz, that new assets can be created and listed on GLBSE, subject to our approval is a good one and is the option that I would put forward. It would also mean that we don't have to specifically spell out what we will or won't approve.

I would like to see added to this that any currently listed assets would also be subject to this, this would prevent an existing asset being bought out or used as a method to get around our requirements. (opinions on this point welcome)

From a practical perspective this would mean that the shortest time an asset could launch would be three days, giving plenty of time to have a look at any new proposals.


Regarding the legality of prostitution and drugs, it's a very touchy subject. GLBSE is not the SilkRoad (which has remained entirely anonymous). With the exception of tobacco and alcohol (both heavily regulated almost everywhere) almost every jurisdiction on the planet has banned drugs (a few allow cannabis).

Prostitution is legal in some parts of Germany, Austrailia and a few mother places, many other places (such as Thailand) have laws against prostitution (i.e. it's illegal) which are almost never enforced.

Rather than trying to figure out how to walk such a tightrope as others throw things at you (you can be sure, despite the legality of any of these sorts of activities based on jurisdiction, the main stream media would have a field day), I think we should just avoid it altogether.

It's a far too dangerous and messy area that I would like to see GLBSE avoid.

[BinaryMage]

Particularly relating to drugs and prostitution various governments around the world tend to work together to take action against high profile targets. Often the only purpose of this is for good news coverage for the governments involved (the recent action against the farmers market operating from the Tor network as an excellent example).

I believe that there is no better method of getting GLBSE shut down and it's operators jailed (i.e. me)  than to allow "vice" assets to be listed or traded. I believe this represents an incredible risk to GLBSE.

I believe in the free market, I also believe that participants in the market may do so on their own terms.

I don't think choosing a jurisdiction to operate under is the correct choice for now, I think that should be done only when it has to (or when GLBSE can afford to).

I also don't think that GLBSE should spell out what is and is not allowed, because as has been mentioned by ColdHardMetal this will leave loopholes that we will forever be plastering over.

I think the suggestion by Blitz, that new assets can be created and listed on GLBSE, subject to our approval is a good one and is the option that I would put forward. It would also mean that we don't have to specifically spell out what we will or won't approve.

I would like to see added to this that any currently listed assets would also be subject to this, this would prevent an existing asset being bought out or used as a method to get around our requirements. (opinions on this point welcome)

From a practical perspective this would mean that the shortest time an asset could launch would be three days, giving plenty of time to have a look at any new proposals.


Regarding the legality of prostitution and drugs, it's a very touchy subject. GLBSE is not the SilkRoad (which has remained entirely anonymous). With the exception of tobacco and alcohol (both heavily regulated almost everywhere) almost every jurisdiction on the planet has banned drugs (a few allow cannabis).

Prostitution is legal in some parts of Germany, Austrailia and a few mother places, many other places (such as Thailand) have laws against prostitution (i.e. it's illegal) which are almost never enforced.

Rather than trying to figure out how to walk such a tightrope as others throw things at you (you can be sure, despite the legality of any of these sorts of activities based on jurisdiction, the main stream media would have a field day), I think we should just avoid it altogether.

It's a far too dangerous and messy area that I would like to see GLBSE avoid.

I think this is reasonable. Far better for GLBSE to stay out of the dangerous limelight by enforcing some basic regulations. If GLBSE got slammed with the kind of media backlash Silk Road has, I doubt it would survive, or survive in a way that was useful to the network. I doubt many projects affiliated with blatantly and widely illegal "products" would use a non-anonymous exchange in any case.

The way I see it, banning drug and prostitution-related enterprises will greatly help in keeping GLBSE out of the negative media spotlight and make it much less likely to be a target for law enforcement. The few people it would hinder shouldn't be using a public exchange anyways.

[Nefario]

Exactly, I think if someone wants to raise funds for something like that then they had better use a market running only from Tor where the operators are anonymous.

Someone could specifically set up such a market if they thought there was demand.

[Nefario]

Our TOS has been updated with a single addition.

11. The Exchange reserves the right to suspend trading of any asset, or suspend access to an asset creator's account for using the exchange in any manor or for any purpose that could endanger the Exchange.

What was 11 before is now 12.

[conspirosphere.tk]

would it be feasible to just go out of beta into gamma and only be available as a hidden service
that way good luck finding the server and there goes the problem with registering any legal entity what so ever.

+1

I'd like at least a site backup on Tor just in case the MIB seize the server. Ideally it should work on auto and be so autonomous that even if the MIB waterboard Nefario they could not stop it.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

Prostitution is legal in some parts of Germany, Austrailia and a few mother places, many other places (such as Thailand) have laws against prostitution (i.e. it's illegal) which are almost never enforced.

Come on, prostitution is not forbid in most countries. Nor I've ever seen an internationally coordinate effort to tackle prostitutes. Only the more theocratic governments go as far as punishing a prostitute. In most places, prostitution is OK. Brothels not always - frequently they just have to pay bribes.

Even in Brazil - an extremely religious place, btw - prostitution is not forbidden. There's even a prostitute who became famous by making a blog of her daily life, and wrote a book about it after if I'm not mistaken. Brothels are theoretically forbidden, but most of them are tolerated - you have to really piss off someone in power to get your brothel shut down, or deny their bribes. You may even have some very fancy ones like this, for example. Such establishments cannot make an IPO in the Brazilian stock market... GLBSE could eventually be very useful.

[brendio]

Our TOS has been updated with a single addition.

11. The Exchange reserves the right to suspend trading of any asset, or suspend access to an asset creator's account for using the exchange in any manor or for any purpose that could endanger the Exchange.

What was 11 before is now 12.

So if I use the exchange in an apartment I should be okay and pose no danger to the Exchange?

[Nefario]

Our TOS has been updated with a single addition.

11. The Exchange reserves the right to suspend trading of any asset, or suspend access to an asset creator's account for using the exchange in any manor or for any purpose that could endanger the Exchange.

What was 11 before is now 12.

So if I use the exchange in an apartment I should be okay and pose no danger to the Exchange?

Apartment, house, bungalow, tent, treehouse, cave, tipi.....

We just don't like the exceptionally rich n privy.

[Bitcoin Oz]

glbse should be located in somalia. There is little to no government to speak of. Failing that, Portugal.

Also brothels are legal in Australia

[Bitcoin Oz]

glbse should be located in somalia. There is little to no government to speak of. Failing that, Portugal.

Also brothels are legal in Australia

Cambodia might be a solid option. I am checking it out this week.

Do they have datacentres in cambodia ? I would definitely like the glbse servers to be moved as far away from the US as possible personally.