[ANN] OpenBitASIC : The Open Source Bitcoin ASIC Initiative

[matthewh3]

@||bit : hardcopy is lower NRE, with higher price per chip and lower performance, compared with a custom full ASIC. YMMV with different technologies and economies of scale.

@Shadow383 : no more news until we have final quotations from manufacturers. Each manufacturer has a different approach, which may lead to different price / performance on the final design.

Well my GLBSE listed mining company RSM will keep buying FPGA's until you have pre-orders ready.  Hopefully you will take a better approach than BFL.  Opensource hardware for opensource software for the win 

[||bit]

@||bit : hardcopy is lower NRE, with higher price per chip and lower performance, compared with a custom full ASIC. YMMV with different technologies and economies of scale.

Is the performance difference significant? If it is significant, then I have to ask: if/when BFL comes onine with ASIC's, how will the hardcopy projec here compete and recoupe starting costs?... Lower markup?

[Unacceptable]

Project is alive and kicking. Not much news lately, so no posting. We are talking with 3 chip manufacturers.
Each need specific technical details before giving a quotation. As soon a manufacturer is elected, we will build a prototype to show. Pre-sales will come after that.
  

Any news on pricing/performance?

Think they have stated ~8GH/s@~100W@~$3,000

Seems kinda high. Would such pricing be initial pricing to recoupe startup costs? I'd like to see it lower of course.

My understanding of ASIC's are that they can be like 10+ times faster than FPGA (correct me if I am wrong). I'd therefore expect ABOUT a ten times H/$ ratio. However, BFL could produce FPGA's that hashed at 8GH/$6000 (i.e. 10 BFL Singles). That is half as good as the ASIC H/$... not a tenth (or fifth since they seem to have a supplier trick in how they acquire the Stratix III's). But even some of the other deals imply only a four times advantage of the above project versus 10+ times what I'd guesstimate.

Any thoughts on that?

I'd like a 4GH/s@50W@$1,500 or even a 2GH/s@25W@$750 version to make the initial cost outlay lower to attract even more miners in and not just a "few" big players.

Hell, I think we'd all love to get 2Ghash for $750  

Yeah if when ASIC's first come out if they can release an ASIC under $1,000 most (a lot of) hobby miners in the western world could jump on the bandwagon and not just the people with the prices of a BFL Mini-Rig to invest.  Therefore keeping the blockchain diverse and not in the hands of just a few miners.  Which could spell the end for bitcoin adoption.  If they offer amazing rates like 100GH/s@1kW@$10,000 only it could kill bitcoin mining for most people and its bitcoin miners who are they biggest supporters of bitcoin.  Reduce there number and reduce the number of bitcoin promoters and then also users.

I'm with you on this  

The way its looking,only those with money will be making money...............in otherwords,Bitcoin will be not be for the masses (even mining),unless you launder money or deal drugs on SR

I'll stick with BFL FPGA's (for ease of resale,if the protocal changes happen making most if not all ASICS "dead"),unless ASIC's are priced accordingly I may get one or 2 just to boost my hashrate.

[nedbert9]

@||bit : hardcopy is lower NRE, with higher price per chip and lower performance, compared with a custom full ASIC. YMMV with different technologies and economies of scale.

Is the performance difference significant? If it is significant, then I have to ask: if/when BFL comes onine with ASIC's, how will the hardcopy projec here compete and recoupe starting costs?... Lower markup?

Currently unknown.  You'd hope the community would support a decent open source project vs.  ... the evil-doers.

[||bit]

Hell, I think we'd all love to get 2Ghash for $750 

That would be nice compared to BFL's FPGA efficiency. But I don't think it would be long before that got obscoleted by a competing ASIC (i.e. the freemarket working on prices). Something like 8+GH for $1000 seems to be more warm & fuzzy. 

[||bit]

Is the below thread topic I found in the forums something that should be considered?

"can "metal programmable cell fabric" technology be used for mining?"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=51372.msg612161#msg612161

Here is some extra literature:
http://www.eetimes.com/electrical-engineers/education-training/tech-papers/4129146/Metal-Programmable-Cell-Fabric-ASICs-Bridge-the-FPGA-Gap

||bit

[jjshabadoo]

I'd like to see an opportunity for bitcoiners to invest in your project directly. Create a stock sale with legitimate stock restriction contracts and allow people to buy stock in the company and/or bonds. Maybe those who have interest in mining could participate in a hybrid pre-order/stock purchase.

For example:

Someone who wants to simply invest: They can purchase shares at a sort of IPO for people who support bitcoin. Don't initially allow people to buy more than X number of shares for a specific time period, say 30 days. Maybe you issue 10000 shares at $100.

So in the initial thirty day phase you only allow individuals or mining companies to purchase 10 shares. After the thirty day period you allow existing investors to have a first crack at whatever shares are left, then open it to anyone if there are any shares leftover. These shares of course pay dividends also.

This would allow you to raise capital of $1M to develop the ASIC. It would hopefully allow small time and big time bitcoiners to participate in the project. Ideally 1000 people buy ten shares in the initial thirty days, if not, well people had their chance.

Then create another stock purchase which includes one unit as part of the deal. So say these shares are preferred stock subject to dividends and you release 1000 shares at initial ASIC purchase price. These folks get to hedge against future units being sold at lower rates by knowing they will profit from these shares. If these units sell at $1000 you have raised an additional $1M.

I am a client of one of the top 50 law firms in the world and they have an office in Beijing. I would love to be involved in this project directly or as an advisor. I am a successful small business owner and I am currently two years into an MBA program.

PM me if you have interest in direct involvement or I will certainly try to contribute ideas through this thread.

My purpose would be to help spread ASIC technology in the bitcoin community in a way that does not consolidate mining power while also providing a reasonable profit for the ASIC producer.

[nedbert9]

I'd like to see an opportunity for bitcoiners to invest in your project directly. Create a stock sale with legitimate stock restriction contracts and allow people to buy stock in the company and/or bonds. Maybe those who have interest in mining could participate in a hybrid pre-order/stock purchase.

For example:

Someone who wants to simply invest: They can purchase shares at a sort of IPO for people who support bitcoin. Don't initially allow people to buy more than X number of shares for a specific time period, say 30 days. Maybe you issue 10000 shares at $100.

So in the initial thirty day phase you only allow individuals or mining companies to purchase 10 shares. After the thirty day period you allow existing investors to have a first crack at whatever shares are left, then open it to anyone if there are any shares leftover. These shares of course pay dividends also.

This would allow you to raise capital of $1M to develop the ASIC. It would hopefully allow small time and big time bitcoiners to participate in the project. Ideally 1000 people buy ten shares in the initial thirty days, if not, well people had their chance.

Then create another stock purchase which includes one unit as part of the deal. So say these shares are preferred stock subject to dividends and you release 1000 shares at initial ASIC purchase price. These folks get to hedge against future units being sold at lower rates by knowing they will profit from these shares. If these units sell at $1000 you have raised an additional $1M.

I am a client of one of the top 50 law firms in the world and they have an office in Beijing. I would love to be involved in this project directly or as an advisor. I am a successful small business owner and I am currently two years into an MBA program.

PM me if you have interest in direct involvement or I will certainly try to contribute ideas through this thread.

My purpose would be to help spread ASIC technology in the bitcoin community in a way that does not consolidate mining power while also providing a reasonable profit for the ASIC producer.

+1

Even though adding complexity to funding development of ASIC technology is, well, just added complexity I would appreciate a framework for such a project that would allow a measure of protection from severe asset depreciation while ensuring the producer is well funded.  Of course, this is specific to sASIC/ASIC and associated potential impact of severe hashing difficulty increases - ROI reduction.

[punin]

I'd like to see an opportunity for bitcoiners to invest in your project directly. Create a stock sale with legitimate stock restriction contracts and allow people to buy stock in the company and/or bonds. Maybe those who have interest in mining could participate in a hybrid pre-order/stock purchase.

For example:

Someone who wants to simply invest: They can purchase shares at a sort of IPO for people who support bitcoin. Don't initially allow people to buy more than X number of shares for a specific time period, say 30 days. Maybe you issue 10000 shares at $100.

So in the initial thirty day phase you only allow individuals or mining companies to purchase 10 shares. After the thirty day period you allow existing investors to have a first crack at whatever shares are left, then open it to anyone if there are any shares leftover. These shares of course pay dividends also.

This would allow you to raise capital of $1M to develop the ASIC. It would hopefully allow small time and big time bitcoiners to participate in the project. Ideally 1000 people buy ten shares in the initial thirty days, if not, well people had their chance.

Then create another stock purchase which includes one unit as part of the deal. So say these shares are preferred stock subject to dividends and you release 1000 shares at initial ASIC purchase price. These folks get to hedge against future units being sold at lower rates by knowing they will profit from these shares. If these units sell at $1000 you have raised an additional $1M.

I am a client of one of the top 50 law firms in the world and they have an office in Beijing. I would love to be involved in this project directly or as an advisor. I am a successful small business owner and I am currently two years into an MBA program.

PM me if you have interest in direct involvement or I will certainly try to contribute ideas through this thread.

My purpose would be to help spread ASIC technology in the bitcoin community in a way that does not consolidate mining power while also providing a reasonable profit for the ASIC producer.

+1

I would love to see the distributed model continue. I think the healthiest model is for the users and miners of bitcoin to invest together in ASIC development and own the company that produces them, as it secures our interests if done correctly. It could be a private company that issues an IPO for the development (most income from IPO to be held in escrow for payment for masks), or a co-op, or maybe even kickstart? Finland has many successful co-op models, where everyone can join, and they get a share of the company, if they agree to the rules of the co-op. The share could be 200$ or so, and would entitle you to one ASIC miner (depending on the price) or a good discount on purchases, when the board is done. Whatever the model, I'd like to see it form as owned by the core community, not some privately held company with a track record of dodgy business conduct.

[rdponticelli]

I'd like to see an opportunity for bitcoiners to invest in your project directly. Create a stock sale with legitimate stock restriction contracts and allow people to buy stock in the company and/or bonds. Maybe those who have interest in mining could participate in a hybrid pre-order/stock purchase.

For example:

Someone who wants to simply invest: They can purchase shares at a sort of IPO for people who support bitcoin. Don't initially allow people to buy more than X number of shares for a specific time period, say 30 days. Maybe you issue 10000 shares at $100.

So in the initial thirty day phase you only allow individuals or mining companies to purchase 10 shares. After the thirty day period you allow existing investors to have a first crack at whatever shares are left, then open it to anyone if there are any shares leftover. These shares of course pay dividends also.

This would allow you to raise capital of $1M to develop the ASIC. It would hopefully allow small time and big time bitcoiners to participate in the project. Ideally 1000 people buy ten shares in the initial thirty days, if not, well people had their chance.

Then create another stock purchase which includes one unit as part of the deal. So say these shares are preferred stock subject to dividends and you release 1000 shares at initial ASIC purchase price. These folks get to hedge against future units being sold at lower rates by knowing they will profit from these shares. If these units sell at $1000 you have raised an additional $1M.

I am a client of one of the top 50 law firms in the world and they have an office in Beijing. I would love to be involved in this project directly or as an advisor. I am a successful small business owner and I am currently two years into an MBA program.

PM me if you have interest in direct involvement or I will certainly try to contribute ideas through this thread.

My purpose would be to help spread ASIC technology in the bitcoin community in a way that does not consolidate mining power while also providing a reasonable profit for the ASIC producer.

+1

I would love to see the distributed model continue. I think the healthiest model is for the users and miners of bitcoin to invest together in ASIC development and own the company that produces them, as it secures our interests if done correctly. It could be a private company that issues an IPO for the development (most income from IPO to be held in escrow for payment for masks), or a co-op, or maybe even kickstart? Finland has many successful co-op models, where everyone can join, and they get a share of the company, if they agree to the rules of the co-op. The share could be 200$ or so, and would entitle you to one ASIC miner (depending on the price) or a good discount on purchases, when the board is done. Whatever the model, I'd like to see it form as owned by the core community, not some privately held company with a track record of dodgy business conduct.

+1TH 

[||bit]

Is the open ASIC project going to be able to survive beside the described upcoming BFL ASIC hardware?

[sadpandatech]

Is the open ASIC project going to be able to survive beside the described upcoming BFL ASIC hardware?

yes, and infact they should flourish if they start moving forward. I would be more than happy to buy stock in such a venture.

[bulanula]

Is the open ASIC project going to be able to survive beside the described upcoming BFL ASIC hardware?

Nope. You must be pretty clueless.

No way a Altera Hardcopy can compete with a full custom pure ASIC that BFL are designing.

[sadpandatech]

Is the open ASIC project going to be able to survive beside the described upcoming BFL ASIC hardware?

Nope. You must be pretty clueless.

No way a Altera Hardcopy can compete with a full custom pure ASIC that BFL are designing.

I would hope at this point they are not locked into any one particular format. That eAsicopy you posted looked interesting. up to 5mil gates on 90nm. Low nre, though they did not state just how low. I did like the presumed 5week move from fpga to asic porting they suggest in their process though.

[bulanula]

You mean www.easic.com

Someone really should invest into an open source design with those folks.

Show BFL punks who's boss. 

[||bit]

Is the open ASIC project going to be able to survive beside the described upcoming BFL ASIC hardware?

Nope. You must be pretty clueless.

No way a Altera Hardcopy can compete with a full custom pure ASIC that BFL are designing.

There's a reason I asked the question.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Is the open ASIC project going to be able to survive beside the described upcoming BFL ASIC hardware?

Nope. You must be pretty clueless.

No way a Altera Hardcopy can compete with a full custom pure ASIC that BFL are designing.

It depends if the bitcoin developers worked with the open source asic to change the protocol without telling BFL just to fuck them over....

So the open source one would win because the bfl asic would be useless.

If the open source asic raises money by letting people buy shares it would benefit us all at the expense of one company who have treated the community like shit with no communication and long lead times while holding onto their cash.

[nedbert9]

Jason, gusti.  Any strategy changes in light of BFL's announcement?  Even if BFL is boasting and performance figures are exaggerated.

[jjshabadoo]

It seems to be some form of the model I proposed benefits everyone and would have considerable interest. If we could put something together quickly I believe we could also beat BFL to the punch given their previous track record. We would also likely take tremendous market share from them as most people in spite of their ability to do so, cannot be happy acting as BFL's creditor while they wait for their products.

With some more input and time, I could put together a very professional outline of how we could get this done, but I have yet to hear from the original developers of this thread/venture.

If anyone else has the contacts/technical expertise to pull this off, I am more than willing to develop the business side of it and believe we could get this off the ground very rapidly. The community really needs this and if BFL saturates the market first this project will become increasingly more difficult to pull off and any miners who buy from them initially are going to get screwed bigtime.

A co-operative, decentralized business model which engages as many members/supporters of bitcoin as possible will not only make the ASIC leap viable for everyone, but will also align itself with bitcoin's philosophy of decentralization. I also believe it does not have to marginalize the FPGA miners and producers if we proceed in a co-operative and well thought out manner.

Anyone who is interested in making this happen, please feel free to PM me.

[matthewh3]

It seems to be some form of the model I proposed benefits everyone and would have considerable interest. If we could put something together quickly I believe we could also beat BFL to the punch given their previous track record. We would also likely take tremendous market share from them as most people in spite of their ability to do so, cannot be happy acting as BFL's creditor while they wait for their products.

With some more input and time, I could put together a very professional outline of how we could get this done, but I have yet to hear from the original developers of this thread/venture.

If anyone else has the contacts/technical expertise to pull this off, I am more than willing to develop the business side of it and believe we could get this off the ground very rapidly. The community really needs this and if BFL saturates the market first this project will become increasingly more difficult to pull off and any miners who buy from them initially are going to get screwed bigtime.

A co-operative, decentralized business model which engages as many members/supporters of bitcoin as possible will not only make the ASIC leap viable for everyone, but will also align itself with bitcoin's philosophy of decentralization. I also believe it does not have to marginalize the FPGA miners and producers if we proceed in a co-operative and well thought out manner.

Anyone who is interested in making this happen, please feel free to PM me.

I'd like to see an opportunity for bitcoiners to invest in your project directly. Create a stock sale with legitimate stock restriction contracts and allow people to buy stock in the company and/or bonds. Maybe those who have interest in mining could participate in a hybrid pre-order/stock purchase.

For example:

Someone who wants to simply invest: They can purchase shares at a sort of IPO for people who support bitcoin. Don't initially allow people to buy more than X number of shares for a specific time period, say 30 days. Maybe you issue 10000 shares at $100.

So in the initial thirty day phase you only allow individuals or mining companies to purchase 10 shares. After the thirty day period you allow existing investors to have a first crack at whatever shares are left, then open it to anyone if there are any shares leftover. These shares of course pay dividends also.

This would allow you to raise capital of $1M to develop the ASIC. It would hopefully allow small time and big time bitcoiners to participate in the project. Ideally 1000 people buy ten shares in the initial thirty days, if not, well people had their chance.

Then create another stock purchase which includes one unit as part of the deal. So say these shares are preferred stock subject to dividends and you release 1000 shares at initial ASIC purchase price. These folks get to hedge against future units being sold at lower rates by knowing they will profit from these shares. If these units sell at $1000 you have raised an additional $1M.

I am a client of one of the top 50 law firms in the world and they have an office in Beijing. I would love to be involved in this project directly or as an advisor. I am a successful small business owner and I am currently two years into an MBA program.

PM me if you have interest in direct involvement or I will certainly try to contribute ideas through this thread.

My purpose would be to help spread ASIC technology in the bitcoin community in a way that does not consolidate mining power while also providing a reasonable profit for the ASIC producer.

+1

I would love to see the distributed model continue. I think the healthiest model is for the users and miners of bitcoin to invest together in ASIC development and own the company that produces them, as it secures our interests if done correctly. It could be a private company that issues an IPO for the development (most income from IPO to be held in escrow for payment for masks), or a co-op, or maybe even kickstart? Finland has many successful co-op models, where everyone can join, and they get a share of the company, if they agree to the rules of the co-op. The share could be 200$ or so, and would entitle you to one ASIC miner (depending on the price) or a good discount on purchases, when the board is done. Whatever the model, I'd like to see it form as owned by the core community, not some privately held company with a track record of dodgy business conduct.

+1TH 

+1  I think the original developers of this project should take in some of these ideas to make the project stronger financially and stronger in the whole bitcoin community by reaching out to more bitcoiner's.