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Author Topic: What is the cheapest way to move money from Australia to Germany?  (Read 3481 times)
jaminunit
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April 12, 2012, 01:55:29 PM
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Hi All,
So Me and my girl are moving to Germany for a year or 2 but I'm still going to have clients in Australia. Those clients pay me in legacy fiat AUD into my bank account.

Anyway I was looking around and would like to send that money over to Germany so I can spend it.
Then I got to thinking I wonder if I can use bitcoin?

So I would buy BTC from CryptoXchange in AUD  that's $5 Flat rate and then send those bitcoin to a European Exchange and get the cash put in a local bank account there.

Does anyone know of a reputable German or European exchange that's cheep to withdrawal.
Or should I just find a cheap way to transfer money using the old school international money wire? If anyone knows of on please let me know.

When I look around at banks they really play with the interest rates so I get totally ripped off.

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bitdragon
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April 12, 2012, 02:07:56 PM
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I have used Sonba from the forum to receive next day Sepa transfers to Switzerland.
He is based in Germany and surely can transfer to you.

I have used many times for high values over the last 6 months.

He and others run also Bitcoinmarket24.com but it seems there you can only buy Bitcoins through Sepa.

You can write to him to see if there is a possibility for you.


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April 12, 2012, 02:24:02 PM
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Even though we have SEPA here in Europe it seems as if people are no too much into opening and operating exchanges here... bitcoin.de is a small german exchange, but you might be more lucky (depending on where in Germany you're going) in just visiting local bitcoin meetups or hackerspaces (if you're into that kind of stuff) and doing your business there. Unles you need to exchange weekly, selling Bitcoins for a few dozen/hundred EUR every few months should be easily doable over the counter I guess.

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
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kangasbros
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April 12, 2012, 02:24:47 PM
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The good thing with SEPA transfers is that there are no fees. So if you use marketplace like bitcoin.de or other client-to-client exchanges, you can save money on exchange fees.

If you are cost-sensitive I would avoid invidual exchangers. They usually take high fees (for a reason, it is valuable service to some).

In the western countries it is usually not that hard to find people wanting to buy bitcoins OTC. So if you are patient and lucky, you can even make some money in the process Wink

I would do it with following method:

- buy bitcoins from cryptoxchange 5 USD fees + exchange fees (1%?). Or use bitcoin-otc for buying. There might be also other options for Australians
- sell on bitcoin-otc.com, bitcoin.de, bitmarket, bitstamp or intersango

Edit: if you have time, patience and luck, you might even make some money in the process by just buying and selling on bitcoin-otc for a small fee. Even the luck factor isn't so big these days, since the exchange rate has been pretty stable lately. If you do this over the time, it will probably even out.

jaminunit
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April 12, 2012, 03:01:54 PM
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Wow great ideas guys! I'm liking bitcoin.de that looks sweet as! So whats the difference between SEPA and normal bank transfer? or is sepa a normal bank transfer in Europe?

I also just found these guys http://www.ozforex.com.au/ which let you lock in an exchange rate  for up to 12 months if you think one or the other is going to go up or down.

But I would rather use bitcoin Smiley

 
Sukrim
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April 12, 2012, 03:10:57 PM
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SEPA is the standardized bank transfer in the EU across participating countries. Weirdly to "check for terrorist activities", all transactions are sent to the world police US of A as well by the way...

You can also do non-SEPA transactions (like sending money to an australian bank) - you would pay fees there though.

https://bitfinex.com <-- leveraged trading of BTCUSD, LTCUSD and LTCBTC (long and short) - 10% discount on fees for the first 30 days with this refcode: x5K9YtL3Zb
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kangasbros
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April 12, 2012, 03:19:32 PM
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But I would rather use bitcoin Smiley

Well, international bank transfer isn't going to cost that much, after all. So if you just want to use bitcoin without the proper research and just choose the easiest way, I think you will pay _more_ for the transfer than normally.

However, if you use the right tools and have the patience, you can even profit in the process in the long term Smiley There are lots of us who appreciate hte liquidity provided by more patient exchangers.

jaminunit
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April 12, 2012, 03:44:35 PM
 #8

great info thanks guys.

So I did some simple calculations. (Please correct me if I'm wrong because math is not my strong point)

1000AUD = 792.446EU on XE.com  right now.

so if I take $1000AUD -5AUD -1% (cryptoXchange fees) = $985.05AUD
Then buy at current price = 199BTC
then send that to bitcoin.de and sell 199 -.5% (bitcoin.de fee) = 198BTC at current price I get 732.60 EU

I checked on OZforex and they will do it for no fee but at an exchange rate of .7760 So I would get 776.00 EU if I went through them I think.

Unless my math is wrong. I would be loosing 44 euros if I went the bitcoin option. Hmmmmm tuff call because I love Bitcoin and would really like to support it as much as I can.
jaminunit
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April 12, 2012, 04:03:09 PM
 #9

OOhh just realized that CryptoXchange fee is now .5% not 1% so thats a bit better

so with all the same logic as above I get
751.65EU

its not 776EU like OZforex but its getting closer Smiley  
hazek
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April 12, 2012, 04:08:33 PM
 #10

cryptoxchange.com:
Account:

BASIC
free
0.50% -> Trade Commission
5.00 AUD + 0.60% -> Deposit: Local Transfer

bitstamp.net (EU exchange)

FAQ:
How much does it cost?

We charge a small fee of 0.5% per trade regardless of the amount of founds exchanged. Please check your account data for more details.

Who pays the withdrawal fee?

Not regarding to withdrawal method, a fee will be displayed before executing the withdrawal and deducted from amount. SEPA withdrawals are charged with fixed 0.90€ fee once your funds are converted to EUR. Minimum amount for SEPA withdrawal is $10.00. International withdrawals are charged with 0.09% fee, minimum fee is $15.00. Minimum amount for international withdrawal is $50.00.


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hazek
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April 12, 2012, 04:18:59 PM
 #11

So that would mean:

$1000 AUD -> (- $5) $995 AUD -> (-0.6%) $989.03 AUD -> ( last BTCAUD $4.97 AUD) 199 BTC -> bitstamp.net -> (last BTCUSD $4.85 USD) $965.15 USD -> ( EURUSD 1.3176) 732.506€ -> ( 0..90€ withdrawal fee) -> 731.606€

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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April 12, 2012, 04:24:38 PM
 #12

Unless my math is wrong. I would be loosing 44 euros if I went the bitcoin option. Hmmmmm tuff call because I love Bitcoin and would really like to support it as much as I can.
It's not that surprising…you're interjecting BTC into the mix for little reason.  It is generally going to be cheaper to conduct one trade (AUD for EUR) than two (AUD for BTC and BTC for EUR).  Perhaps you might exchange some percentage of your AUD into BTC and spend the BTC directly rather than exchange back into EUR (the remainder of your AUD would just be exchanged for EUR directly).

(gasteve on IRC) Does your website accept cash? https://bitpay.com
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April 12, 2012, 04:54:04 PM
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Bitcoin fanatics in this forum won't like it, but theres exists a 0-cost way to move money between those 2 countries already:

All you need is a Westpac account and a Deutsche Bank account (basic fees for maintaining the accounts may apply)
Both banks are part of the "Global ATM Alliance", among others. Look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_ATM_Alliance
Money can be withdrawn without a fee from any of the participating bank's atm all over the planet (doesnt apply to balance sheets, transfers, counter services, etc.)

When I spent a year OZ my family (having the Detusche Bank account) and I having the westpac one constantly transferred money that way.

Hint: You can also send postcards for free! from OZ to Germany (maybe also back), using the "AIRMAIL" or "SEAMAIL" stamps available in every second post office. It dates back from a contracts between the both authorities from WW2 I think.

Other than that: Use Bitcoin
minorman
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April 12, 2012, 07:39:27 PM
 #14

I'd use intersango.com for selling bitcoin and sepa-transferring euros to a bank account. They have always provided a good service, I find. And if you sell bitcoin in a "market making" fashion I.e. make a limit order at above the current spot price they charge 0.1% fee iirc.
That lands you at a total transfer cost of 0.6% (0.5+0.1) I.e. you pay 6 AUD, to transfer 1000, which I strongly doubt any bank can match.

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jaminunit
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April 13, 2012, 06:19:33 AM
 #15

Hi Guys,

Wow so many options but sadly I think I'm going to have to go with Citibank  Sad Booooo   simply because they make it so easy and they offer no fee movement of money at a very good exchange rate.
Its just to much hassle at the moment because I'm going to be transferring a couple of K every week and its all to much of a rigmarole.

BUT.... I think this would be a great opportunity for someone to bring this type of service to market. A service that is hassle free, you put one currency in one end and you get another currency out at the other without the user doing much at all.

This is what happened to telephony.

To get super cheep international call rates you would bypass the expensive international telephone switches and instead ring a local number that would convert your voice to voice over IP. That data would be sent to the foreign country where it would ring a local phone and only charge you local rates for the call.

I think someone could do a similar thing using bitcoin as a conduit for legacy currency exchanges. If there was enough volume you could make it cheaper than using something like the criminals at citibank.

Sadly I'm stupidly busy and can't set up a service like this but yeah would be great and sooooo many people would use it + like kangasbros said it would create liquidity in the BTC markets.
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April 14, 2012, 11:11:13 AM
 #16

If you have verified account with Crypto X Change, you can directly ask them for withdraw to your Germany bank. Should be 5 AUD + 0.6% for basic plan.

Cheers

CryptoXChange.com - AUD deposits/withdraw now $5 only
jaminunit
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April 22, 2012, 05:29:19 AM
 #17

Just found this article for anyone that's interested.
I just emailed them and asked them to also support bitcoin.

http://venturebeat.com/2012/04/18/transferwise-undercuts-the-banks-with-crowdsourced-currency-exchange/
hazek
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April 22, 2012, 10:43:26 AM
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Just found this article for anyone that's interested.
I just emailed them and asked them to also support bitcoin.

http://venturebeat.com/2012/04/18/transferwise-undercuts-the-banks-with-crowdsourced-currency-exchange/


That's one very good company to approach with Bitcoin. I hope your email doesn't land in the spam folder, what did you write?

EDIT: here's a direct link for anyone wondering: http://www.transferwise.com/

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April 22, 2012, 12:51:02 PM
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BUT.... I think this would be a great opportunity for someone to bring this type of service to market. A service that is hassle free, you put one currency in one end and you get another currency out at the other without the user doing much at all.

I think the problem you face here is that you are simply trying to change currencies twice.

Going from AUD -> EUR will have a certain fee.
Going from AUD -> BTC will have a certain comparative fee, and then you have to pay another fee to go from BTC -> EUR.

It's a bit like getting EUR by going: AUD -> USD -> EUR. There's really not much point in going via USD unless there are loads more people trading USD than there are people with EUR that want AUD (arbitrage/liquidity etc). The same applies to BTC, except BTC is a waaaaaaaaaaay smaller market.

BTC's advantage is if you were paid by your clients in Australia in BTC, and you could spend your BTC in Germany for whatever you wanted, within the hour. That's where transaction fees become nominal. The same could be done if you were paid in USD and paid via USD in Germany too, of course, but as we know the banks don't work this way, so BTC is a viable world currency option (no central bank creating them at leisure).
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