This is my "Response Topic" to the other Monero topic that is "self moderated"
Nxtblg said this and well .. fair enough LOL
In a sense, this is an old difference-of-opinion story. Smiley Sorry that you took his take personally, Melbustus, but kennyP has a global-level point. For the record, I've implicitly defended guys like you, even though I looked into Bitcoin in 2011 but got scared off by all those hacking stories (The scaredy point for me was keylogger malware; I got logic-trapped and was either too skeered - or too proud - to join Bitcointalk in '11 to ask for help. I didn't jump into altcoins until I got Raxco's PerfectGuard.)
As a (personal) result, I have no envy of you guys and surprisingly little regret. The way I see it: had I pursued that alternate course, I would have either been: a multi-millionaire; robbed; a theoretical 'multimillionaire' ensnarled in the Gox bankruptcy; or, someone who took the bird in the hand in '12 like so many others. There's really no way to tell that's not essentially mental masturbation. So: the way I see it, there's really no point in worrying, fantasizing or whatnot. What was done, was done and that's that. Might as well enjoy what you've got; you'll certainly have no complaints from me!
But to get back to kennyP's point: he's essentially saying that you and the other whales are specialists. The trouble with specialization is that there's an inevitable echo-chamber effect within the specialty; at a minimum, it shows up in 'expertitis': using jargon terms as if they were all defined in a basic high-school-level dictionary. No worries, in and of itself, but specialists who strike it 'lucky' [<--- pls note inverted commas] tend to yield to that ole debbil that lurks in all of us: namely, vanity. Many are the specialists who, after getting fortune and prominence, fancy themselves as experts in politics plus the entire field of which they're only a part. Case in point: Paul Krugman.
Had I taken that opposite course and had gotten 'lucky', I'd take that lottery-winner categorization as a cautionary tale. One of the open and sad secrets about the lottery is that the typical jackpot winner blows his or her wad in about five years. The reason why is important - and it does pertain to kennyP's point. Many of them fancy themselves to be skilled and shrewd businesspeople stuck in dead-end jobs. If they only had the bankroll, they'd become loaded and esteemed! The world would finally know their real selves!
So, they start up or buy a small business like a restaurant, bar, or whatnot and spend lavishly on it. And within five years...
Anyhoo: to get back to the point, all of Bill Gates' billions can't erase his social maladroitness [which to some extent I share.] All of Warren Buffet's billions can't change the fact that he's been flat-out wrong about Bitcoin. All the wealth that an old-style goldbug had shrewdly accumulated in the 1970s in no way prepared him for the 1980s, when gold collapsed and stocks (and bonds!) became the place to be. And...
If you need a little peace of mind, Melbustus, this might help: 'luck' is really a myth - a thought-sparing heuristic for people who have neither the time nor the inclination to get to the truth of the matter. We all use myths of this sort to one extent or another to get us by in our everyday lives, else we'd have no time to act! You can content yourself with the empirical fact that people prone to use the myth of 'luck' are preponderantly people who won't make much of themselves socio-economically. In an important sense, they've installed their own glass ceiling.
in response to this..
Quote from: kennyP on September 08, 2014, 09:20:35 PM
Quote from: Melbustus on September 08, 2014, 08:30:45 PM
Quote from: kennyP on September 08, 2014, 06:43:50 PM
...
There are some true believers here, but you're right, some guys who made a load of paper wealth through nothing more than luck and good fortune hearing about bitcoin earlier than others do seem to think that their success was actually due to their above average investing abilities. A bit like taking investment advice from someone who won powerball jackpot lottery.
I've responded to this sort of ugliness before, but I'll do it again now because it's so offensive. Yes, there are probably a few people who bought hundreds or thousands of bitcoin on a whim in 2011, properly secured it, completely forgot about it, then came back years later, remember they had it, remembered their passwords/whatever, etc...
But most of the people who held (or bought) through the 2011 crash were different. They did the math on the potential bitcoin represented, and continued to hold a *very* unpopular position, and a 90% mark-to-market loss for many. That's really not easy at all. And contextualize yourself to the timeframe: the media was declaring bitcoin dead (yes, quite more strongly than now), it was almost embarassing to talk about in polite company, no reputable public figures, VCs, or tech people had come out with much support, and it wasn't *that* hard to think that the experiment was just that... Most of the "whim" people bailed. It took considerable vision (and risk-tolerance), backed by solid analysis, to hold or buy more.
But I guess if you hang around the alt-forum too long, you just auto-assume that everyone is a shallow-thinker making snap-decisions...
Sorry you see my opinion as 'ugly', I didn't mean to offend anyone. What I am saying is someone who looked at bitcoin in 2011 and invested 1-2 thousand dollars, and had sense to hodl doesn't automatically become an investment guru. Maybe some do have useful skills, but risking 1K USD is nothing to get too excited about.
and i think
sonoIO is missing the point.. there is a third group........... THIEVES !
I'm rather new in all this but i'm starting to see some patterns that i'll share here. My intention is not to offend anyone but i'll be honest and to the (my) point.
First i'll put supporters of different cryptocurrencies in two major groups
1. Old school investors, think of Wall Street investors as representatives
2. Little investors, that represent the ppl
And when you think about it these groups are naturally opposed, at least atm.
Will not comment the first group too much as i do now have experience in that, but whole CN concept (egalitarian mining and whatnot) is intended to serve second group. It is not surprising that original CN folks does not like the first group, and it should not be surprising that a lot of average Joes will have more sympathy for the second group. That is naturally because CN folks didn't invent second group, they just recognized it.
Another, and more dubious, point is the privacy oriented monetary platform does not mix with first group as well as with second group. Will not explain this, just think about it for a moment. One could stretch this so much to claim that first group and privacy for ppl is a oxymoron, but that is just a stretch.
And now something completely different, i personally liked XMR to the point when shilling and FUDing e.g. BBR surpassed my limit of a good taste. It may be the point when some e.g. DRK supporters switched to XMR, wouldn't know. And i do not claim that my good taste limit should be general, but my feeling is that XMR is going in to direction which looks like the reason why ppl were drown to cryprocurencies actually.
That are my 2 Sats
EDIT: At the average the first group is much more aggressive and thinks that clear winner is a must to see, yesterday. Second group is more inclined to idea to have something that works good, and consequentially like idea of few CN projects at this early stage as this will bring healthy competition and develop whole CN tech much faster. There are just basic differences of those two groups
EDIT2: I personally like the Darwinian process at work in CN, maybe even few projects will survive on different niches, which shouldn't be a problem if there is frictionless conversion between the coins, with SuperNet and OpenTransactions. And rpietila, I think you are correct person, do not take this post personally
although guys like
jubalix saying shit like this just make me laugh LOL
I know this is hard for so many to understand because Gov itself is all most have ever known.
Bitcoin is the tech that allows a knew form of "government" in a decentralized way, an new kind of society and life. For most it will be better, for some, eg a large percentage of government "workers" they will be looking for new streams of income, as their host just found a way to be immune to much of their parasitic nature
It inverts that paradigm and the organization of capital.
The current form of government has no discretion in the issue.
It is not a question "will they allow" it is a question of if they wish to survive will they be able to adapt in time.
Already we are seeing the arbitrage of jurisdictions. Some make anti BTC laws some are pro BTC. The pro ones attract capital, talent energy.
Look at email, and what it has done to the postal service, indeed no gov could probably function without email now.
put simply the law of thermodynamics ensures that the fittest and most adaptable model wins. Any system including governments that are not the most efficient die and or are replaced. It not a choice or a decision anyone or thing has.
Its hardwired into the laws of physics of this universe at least in this local part of it at a macro scale.
Bitcoin, or bitcoin tech is over and order of magnitude more efficient than centralist banking/stateist model.
US, UK, EU, China they see this and are building a large stock of BTC just in-case, as well as every other nation that can. It cheap, on the table and why would you not do it?
Consider just one aspect. Banks themselves, their must be of the order of 1 million bank branches in the world. BTC tech replaces at least 10% of their reason for existence if not 50%. That 10% of the cost of running those branches, the IT costs, the staff the property cost, the ATMs, the maintenance. A branch would cost near $1 million a year to run.
That 10%~50% of 1T, a year in savings right their BTC tech arbitrages out. So at 10% circa 100B, a year in savings, thats per year. That there just by itself underwrites a market cap in the trillions.
And that is just one part of the whole picture that BTC tech is more efficient in.
People keep going on and on about intrinsic value, there it is, 1T plus market cap of intrinsic value.
The Byzantine generals problem that BTC solves is not just some small thing, it defied the collective ability of the human race until Pre-Satoshi. The applications and implications cannot be understated.
Another source of value is the un-seizable form of wealth. This is the first time in history you can store wealth against force
before this no matter what sort of wealth you had, it could be seized, by force, of, the state, through their "laws", eg tax, or whatever, by the invader, even by decay. Yes I know the lead pipe argument. But people would just send thier coins to a bitcoin eater if this happened to much makeing it an untenable model or thier would me some other n of m solution.
Now reason must be applied not force to make people part with their wealth. Full anonymity is coming. Bitcoin holds out the opportunity for the first time in human history to cross the threshold from brute force, blunt instruments of the blanket state laws, barbarism, to reason.
If I could encapsulate it in one phrase it is the "elision of sovereignty to the state/community to individual"
the only question remains is who or what will that individual be.
but the king of them all (Mr I never used any other Altcoin before) Monero
repitelie douche bag holder Nazi topic spammer hyper is full of shit saying crap like this..
Quote from: rikkejohn on September 08, 2014, 05:29:12 PM
I guess this is a project for people that made money by doing nothing very much in 2011.
It is possible that you are very right and this is a great insight. There is a kind of group that I feel connected to, consisting of people like aminorex, NewLiberty, (I don't want to add the names of not-so-public supporters), and people whom I know locally in Finland. The defining characteristics are that we are typically not old money, so the Bitcoin rally in 2010-2013 has changed our life, but we are also not nerds, just ordinary 30-50 yo adults who could invest a few thousand and not panic about it, resulting in that we still have hundreds if not thousands of BTC.
The willingness to change the world is a great motivation in us. Now Bitcoin has given new resources. Many have been searching for altcoins, but what's been offered did not interest us for a long time, as with a few exceptions, all altcoins have made terrible loss in their lifetime, and the high hopes of newcomers typically gone in vain. We have been able to see if there is no staying power, and invested only little, if anything, and watched the scene in sadness.
Then Monero comes and either analytically or intuitively sweeps our market niche with a promise of an anonymous coin, with potential to change the world, with an upright devteam and fair distribution. Knowing the mind of each other in our "group" (the "group" is just defined by being a set of people that think likewise) we rush to buy Monero, since the others will certainly do the same and of course we make money by doing it first Smiley My buying only really started in July when the 231 bottom was made. The previous months I was observing, very positive, but unwilling to commit.
This accumulation to long-term hoards has continued all this time, price has been very stable, and volume brisk. My predictions that our group's purchasing pressure overwhelms the inflation from mining have been unfounded, and likewise the doomsayers' predictions of lower and lower prices have not materialized. What has happened instead, is massive concentration of price in BTC0.004, which is the all-time-average, the current price, and the wedge closing point from the trends of higher lows and lower highs. Technically, it will soon break. Up or down, but with a massive move. Unless it stays in exactly BTC0.004 forever.
Quote from: kennyP on September 08, 2014, 06:43:50 PM
There are some true believers here, but you're right, some guys who made a load of paper wealth through nothing more than luck and good fortune hearing about bitcoin earlier than others do seem to think that their success was actually due to their above average investing abilities. A bit like taking investment advice from someone who won powerball jackpot lottery.
This is not really the way things happen in life. It is part luck (to be born in 1st world), but most part your choice to hang out with friends who follow tech. Then they tell you about Bitcoin. It is part luck (if you are minor and absolutely broke), but most part your choice to have money to invest and developed skills to understand it. It is part luck (if this is your first investment ever in something you don't understand) but most part your choice to throw money in fringe projects in carefully calculated small quantities, and then not worry about it.
It is no part luck if you were able to see Bitcoin was conquering the world in 2011. For most of us, it was about the choices that we had made in life that accumulated and made it much more probable to invest in 2011, and then hold through the days that took the price to half even twice the same day, and other things that the newbies don't know. My involvement in Bitcoin was certainly not luck, I take a methodical approach in investing and even in 2012, I lost $80,000 in several investments that went badly. Without investing into these stuff several times a year, I would not have invested into Bitcoin either.
Maybe somebody got in lucky, first buying, then losing the keys being thus unable to sell until now.
But my odds were stacked in 10,000:1 in my favor. And after that guy has sold, I still own them.
Quote from: AnonyWince on September 08, 2014, 09:36:29 PM
This is too important to not make 100% clear.
Quote from: rpietila on September 08, 2014, 02:03:13 PM
The devs need to do their job, they don't have time for the economy, and they are not competent in it (also whales often suck at coding, like me).
I for example am competent at both. You were just lucky that I had been too sick to code.
You also have 1 sigma higher IQ than me, it is not fair to use yourself as an example. Also I don't rejoice in your sickness.
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Quote from: rpietila on September 08, 2014, 02:03:13 PM
Whales are the wealthy and well-connected businessmen that make things happen.
Your model of the hackerdom, crypto-currency, the knowledge age, the future, and investing in decentralized technology is fundamental flawed.
Precisely Bitcoin and Monero are rich boy clubs and this is why they are going no where. Bitcoin and Monero are driven by investors, not by users. They are investment pumps, not currencies. Perhaps all of the crypto-currencies to date have been investment pumps. Perhaps BBR and James are experimenting to create features and try to discover what will drive user adoption. I am not saying they will succeed, because I am not following their work.
I have outlined above what kind of sound, established, (moderately) wealthy, intellectually curious, people started to concentrate in Bitcoinworld in 2011 and who have now changed the big toe of their right foot to Monero with 1-5% of their capital, ready to give that leg more weight if Monero can take it. We believe the leadership is there and MEW is one initiative to create an actual, functioning, governance in a coin, based on the wishes of the owners.
As for hackerdom, I am not too much into it. I am building an economy that grows bigger and is able to absorb the imploding dollar economy as soon as possible. I admire the hackers similar way as engineers - if they create something that works, and does it elegantly.
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Lazy capital that wants to smoke a cigar while instructing the busy-bee worker devs doesn't build a damn thing. Here follows my canonical references. Ignore them at your peril. This is will be my final warning. I am doing this as a service to you and to try to earn the donation you made to me. A true friend is one who speaks up when he thinks you are wrong.
It is only your lack of experience that you think I am not doing useful work.
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Edit: I am reading the pulse of the community-at-large and I think you are Monero's worst enemy.
Once MEW gets up and running, we will have to select people to be the community public speakers. If the real opinion of the community is that I should limit speaking, I may do it. Voting does cost money, and requires that you own moneros, and that you are reputable. When these people decide somehing, I am very prone to listen. Currently obfuscation is the name of the game and all the trolling against Monero could have been bought by $500. MEW is really the answer to this.
Quote from: ExtremeFacials.com on September 08, 2014, 09:55:33 PM
Quote from: rpietila on September 08, 2014, 02:03:13 PM
Whales are the wealthy and well-connected businessmen that make things happen.
I'm embarrassed for you, do you realise how ridiculous that sounds coming after your recent XMR pump fest? What you should be saying is whales are the corrupt exploiters that have almost destroyed our planet and human civilisation.
By subscribing to a destructive ideology, yes. Those "whales" are a sad species, though. They are like "sheep-whales", led to slaughter by their puppet-masters. (Maybe I really need a new term, yes - ) my whales are dynamic, well-conncted humans, who know how things are handled in the outside world, cunning as a fox, innocent as a dove. The Leaders. The ones that anything, whatever it is, needs, to have any chance to succeed in this evil world that is quick to snuff all initiatives that threaten the status quo.
I have no idea what is XMR pump fest. Perhaps you can refer to some specific time in the market or anything..?
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The greedy 1% that owns most of the world's wealth are the whales you speak of, but most people hate them with a passion.
I cannot make it untrue that 50% of monero are also owned by 1% of the people. There is no mechanism that would preserve people's liberty and produce a different wealth distribution.
What is the source of this hate? I am among every 1% that can be calculated. I have never in my life scammed anyone or done non-voluntary transactions, or any other crime against other people. Everything that I own I have earned in trade with other people, typically so that they come to me. Why do you hate me?
Also greed is that "you desire something greatly that others have" Of course sometimes I catch myself from this sin, but never has the object of the greed been money or anything that money can buy. How about your greed? You ever wished to have something that does not belong to you?
