Heating a Space via Mining

[Flep182]

you will use 5400 watts so you need a 30 amp 240 volt circuit

5400 watts is about 18000 Btu of heat.

Oh that is some serious stuff, let me look into that, thanks!

[mikeywith]

you will use 5400 watts so you need a 30 amp 240 volt circuit

240v won't cut it for the hydro miners, you need 3 phases 380-415v (10A on each phase), depending on your country specs, for anyone who doesn't know what 3-phase wiring is, you can't just use three wires coming from the same phase and assume the miner will work, most houses will likely run on a single phase setup, so it won't be easy to supply 3 phase appliances, it's easy to figure that out just by looking at the wires coming into your house if they are just 2 wires -- you get a single phase wiring, if they are 4 wires then you got 3 phase which again, is very unlikely.

[Flep182]

you will use 5400 watts so you need a 30 amp 240 volt circuit

240v won't cut it for the hydro miners, you need 3 phases 380-415v (10A on each phase), depending on your country specs, for anyone who doesn't know what 3-phase wiring is, you can't just use three wires coming from the same phase and assume the miner will work, most houses will likely run on a single phase setup, so it won't be easy to supply 3 phase appliances, it's easy to figure that out just by looking at the wires coming into your house if they are just 2 wires -- you get a single phase wiring, if they are 4 wires then you got 3 phase which again, is very unlikely.

Yeah, with a move from gas for cooking to induction (or similar) a lot of people have to adapt their fuse box and get a 3 phase installed. Right now in some regions there's a several month waiting list though

[stompix]

you will use 5400 watts so you need a 30 amp 240 volt circuit

240v won't cut it for the hydro miners, you need 3 phases 380-415v (10A on each phase), depending on your country specs, for anyone who doesn't know what 3-phase wiring is, you can't just use three wires coming from the same phase and assume the miner will work, most houses will likely run on a single phase setup, so it won't be easy to supply 3 phase appliances,

Never mind, totally forgot what the hydro specs are, was still thinking in the 200~240 area of the S19 I'm used to.
Thanks Phil!

Hmm, I don't get the part about the v here.
Speaking just for my area but in Europe, we've changed from 380v to 400v transmission before consumer so the phase is up from 220v to 230v but we are on 30A here so my 4000W oven has no trouble with it.
Isn't this more a thing of maximum kvA rather than voltage?

[philipma1957]

you will use 5400 watts so you need a 30 amp 240 volt circuit

240v won't cut it for the hydro miners, you need 3 phases 380-415v (10A on each phase), depending on your country specs, for anyone who doesn't know what 3-phase wiring is, you can't just use three wires coming from the same phase and assume the miner will work, most houses will likely run on a single phase setup, so it won't be easy to supply 3 phase appliances,

Hmm, I don't get the part about the v here.
Speaking just for my area but in Europe, we've changed from 380v to 400v transmission before consumer so the phase is up from 220v to 230v but we are on 30A here so my 4000W oven has no trouble with it.

Isn't this more a thing of maximum kvA rather than voltage?

It reads that the psu takes  380-415ac

that's 3 phase.

which means 3 hot wires not 2.

most homes in usa have 2 separate 120volt hot wires which will give 240 volts single phase.

my mine is 3 phase  460 volts there are 3 hots which our transformer drops to 232 volts 2 hots

If you are buying this miner it is commercial if you are in USA as home do not have 3 phase.

thanks to mikeywith for finding that.


"https://shop.bitmain.com/product/detail?pid=000202309271329420372NbWET50062F

Specifications
Purchasing Guidelines
Warranty
| Specifications

Product Glance   
Model   S21 Hyd.
Algorithm | Cryptocurrency   SHA256 | BTC/BCH/BSV
Hashrate, TH/s(1-1)   335
Power on wall @35°C(1-2), Watt(1-1)   5360
Power efficiency on wall @35°C(1-2), J/TH(1-1)   16.0
Detailed Characteristics       
Power Supply       
Power supply AC Input voltage, Volt(2-1)   380~415V AC   
Power supply AC Input Frequency Range, Hz   50~60   
Power supply AC Input current, Amp(2-2)   12   
Hardware Configuration       
Networking connection mode   RJ45 Ethernet 10/100M   
Miner Size (Length*Width*Height, w/o package),mm   339*163*207   
Miner Size (Length*Width*Height, with package),mm   570*316*430   
Net weight, kg   12.3   
Gross weight, kg   13.6   
Environment Requirements       
Inlet water temperature, °C   
NEM(2-3)

HEM1(2-3)

HEM2(2-3)

35

45

50

Water flow, L/min   8.0~10.0
Water pressure bar   ≤3.5
Working fluid(2-4)   Deionized water/Pure water
Liquid PH   8.5~9.5
Diameter of water pipe connector, mm   DN10
Storage temperature, °C   -20~70
Operation humidity(non-condensing), RH   10~90%
NOTE:

(1-1) The Hashrate value, Power on wall, and Power efficiency on wall are all typical values, The actual Hashrate value fluctuates by 3%, and the actual Power on wall and Power efficiency on wall fluctuate by 5%.
(1-2) Inlet water temperature.
(2-1) Caution: Wrong input voltage may probably cause server damaged.
(2-2) Three-phase AC input, 10 A per wire.
(2-3) NEM: Normal Energy Mode; HEM: High Energy Mode.
(2-4) If the water conductivity is ≥100 μs/cm, the fluid must be replaced. The water conductivity is less than 20 μs/cm when the system is running at the first time."

[mikeywith]

Yeah, with a move from gas for cooking to induction (or similar) a lot of people have to adapt their fuse box and get a 3 phase installed. Right now in some regions there's a several month waiting list though

Why would you need 3 phase for induction cooktop? You just need 220v for that, which is L+L (split phase) for U.S and N+L for the majority of the world, probably for the car charger?

So most homes around the globe will have two wires, N and L, where the voltage between the two is 220v to 240v.

When we talk 3 phase there are two different setups

1- Three-Wire

Just 3 L wires no N, the voltage between each two phases is 380-400v ( not sure what that is in the U.S) but google tells me it is 460v which won't work on the hydro miners if the number is correct, such setup only exists in industrial areas.

2- Four-wire Wye

3 L + 1N , the voltage between L and L is 380-400v , between L and N is 220-240v, these 4 wires will run along the street and then house one gets L1+N , house two gets L2+N and so on, so despite having 4 wires running under or above your house, you get only 2 since as a normal house all you need is that, when it is a business or a factory they give them the 4 wires because while most of their machines would require only L1+L2+L3 , they would still the N to get 220v for the lights, TV and what not.


So in the average country, residential buildings won't get 3 phase wiring, electric car chargers might change that concept, might have already changed that in some places.

Back to weird U.S numbers, Phill's numbers match the result I got from Google, 460v is probably too much for the hydro miner given that the specs clearly state 380v-415v, I am sure you can find transformers in the U.S that can get you 400v instead of 460v, just not sure how popular those are.
 

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Back to weird U.S numbers, Phill's numbers match the result I got from Google, 460v is probably too much for the hydro miner given that the specs clearly state 380v-415v, I am sure you can find transformers in the U.S that can get you 400v instead of 460v, just not sure how popular those are.

In the US industrial power is 460-480v. For new installations it's not hard to get transformers that deliver 380-415v but ja those are strictly for dedicated uses and even if you buy the service transformer the power companies will really push for a different solution unless you need more than say 1MW service. For existing services we would just use auto-transformers to knock 460/480v down to the desired range, they are fairly small and relatively low cost.

[mikeywith]

In the US industrial power is 460-480v. For new installations it's not hard to get transformers that deliver 380-415v but ja those are strictly for dedicated uses and even if you buy the service transformer the power companies will really push for a different solution unless you need more than say 1MW service.

One would assume that since the largest mining operations exist in the U.S now, Bitmain would make something that works there right out of the box without all the complication and the added cost, it's probably one of the reasons why even the 19 hydros are selling for pretty cheap now since all these resellers are stuck with them and nobody wants to buy them, heck even their hydro container ANTSPACE HK3 V6 that sells for 110k needs an input voltage of 400v +-5.

I am no way near an expert in the electrical field, but are the folks in Bitmain too stupid to make something that is hard to run in their NO.1 market country, or do they know something we don't?

[NotFuzzyWarm]

...
I am no way near an expert in the electrical field, but are the folks in Bitmain too stupid to make something that is hard to run in their NO.1 market country, or do they know something we don't?

If their major markets were in Europe or Asia then building gear to use 400v would make sense but since that is not the case, I go with 'stupid'.

Since W=V*A, using a higher line voltage of course means that for any given power less amps are pulled which means that one can use components that are rated for lower current and are easier to cool since is the current that drives how much heat they waste. Fun fact, when designing power systems the component current rating has a much larger impact on price than the component voltage rating does.

My guess is that BM just does not care because multi-MW transformers are *not* what one would call a 'standard in-stock item'. They are made-to-order and that being the case the mega farms just spec theirs for 400v.

[philipma1957]

Or they have connections with companies selling this unit.
this is an 80kva If I go with copper over aluminum it will cost 11k plus shipping and install costs say 14000.  This would allow 14 new 335th hydro's and I need to buy liquid cooling. It is a lot to convert over.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Getting way OT here but price for that isolation xmfr is too high. https://store.maddoxtransformer.com/products/64d50fed-3483-587e-9848-1f3005736804 has way better but again - applies only to 'small' farms that must use incoming 480vac from their existing utility supplied distribution transformer. Actually - that site has several excellent articles dealing with power distribution https://maddoxtransformer.com/resources/articles/

The mega farms pulling 10's to 100's of MW per-site have their own substations tied to The Grid's main transmission lines and can go a whole different route. Typically it is incoming xmfrs taking in 33kvac or higher from the utility and dropping that to a distribution voltage of 13kv or so which is sent to the mining warehouses to then be dropped to whatever voltage the miners need - in this case 400V - by several final transformers located at each warehouse or pod.

When starting from scratch with a blank slate makes it very easy to accommodate different needs just by having different final xmfrs to provide 240 or 400 or 480v and segregating the loads accordingly.

[mikeywith]

My guess is that BM just does not care because multi-MW transformers are *not* what one would call a 'standard in-stock item'. They are made-to-order and that being the case the mega farms just spec theirs for 400v.

True, but that does not change the fact that potential clients with regular U.S 460v would find it hard to justify the extra cost and time needed to set up new transformers just for the hydro, I mean I see MicroBT tweaked thier gears to run on 277v just for U.S clients, I expected Bitmain would do the same given that the U.S is the largest mining hub today.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Oh I certainly agree. My point is that because it is not a major issue to them, BM just does not care. A 75kva autotransformer is only $1,1700 so smaller farms do have a viable solution to it. If companies like RIOT and Marathon who run sites that pull 10's to 100's of MW don't care then BM won't care either.

[philipma1957]

Oh I certainly agree. My point is that because it is not a major issue to them, BM just does not care. A 75kva autotransformer is only $1,1700 so smaller farms do have a viable solution to it. If companies like RIOT and Marathon who run sites that pull 10's to 100's of MW don't care then BM won't care either.

the 75kva at your link was 4800 used and install is at least two grand

So say 7000 to do 14 miners that is 500 a 335th hydro plus coolers I have seen them at 600 for one unit

so say 7000+7000= 14000 for 14 335th hydros.

makes me buy the s19xps.

[Flep182]

Yeah, with a move from gas for cooking to induction (or similar) a lot of people have to adapt their fuse box and get a 3 phase installed. Right now in some regions there's a several month waiting list though

Why would you need 3 phase for induction cooktop? You just need 220v for that, which is L+L (split phase) for U.S and N+L for the majority of the world, probably for the car charger?

So most homes around the globe will have two wires, N and L, where the voltage between the two is 220v to 240v.

Sorry, slow response. Not sure about the exact technical reasons, but as it was explained to me by an electrician, is that there is a lot more electric usage these days, so for over a decade they do newly build houses with 3 phase to be "prepared". By itself 2 phase would be working for many induction stoves, but (if I'm not mistaken) it's 5 or more hobs and/or downward extraction of air, it can go over the specs for 2 phase.
As he explained it would in case of washer+dryer+dishwasher+induction potentially be too much, and that's not taking into account car chargers.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

By itself 2 phase would be working for many induction stoves, but (if I'm not mistaken) it's 5 or more hobs and/or downward extraction of air, it can go over the specs for 2 phase.

Just for technical clarity, 2-phase power does not exist outside of some *very* specialized applications.

Utility power is either single phase (which includes split-phase) or 3-phase.

[mikeywith]

for many induction stoves, but (if I'm not mistaken) it's 5 or more hobs and/or downward extraction of air, it can go over the specs for 2 phase.
As he explained it would in case of washer+dryer+dishwasher+induction potentially be too much, and that's not taking into account car chargers.

I still highly doubt that the average house will use anything 3 phase, the stove you describing is probably business grade, now if it is a matter of "quantity" then it makes perfect sense, here if the house has more than a single floor, the utility company would run 3 phase to it, each floor gets 1 phase and neutral, say 6 flats each two share a single phase, but still, inside that house you can not just plug and play 3-phase appliances, you would need to run the other two phases directly from the main panel.

I understand that things are different across the globe, so ya, to each country its own design.

Utility power is either single phase (which includes split-phase) or 3-phase.

Correct, the naming is rather confusing to many people, it is hard to explain that 2 wires are a single phase, it is also hard to explain why would a clamp meter read zero when you get the two wires together, electricity isn't all that simple after all.

[Flep182]

By itself 2 phase would be working for many induction stoves, but (if I'm not mistaken) it's 5 or more hobs and/or downward extraction of air, it can go over the specs for 2 phase.

Just for technical clarity, 2-phase power does not exist outside of some *very* specialized applications.

Utility power is either single phase (which includes split-phase) or 3-phase.

Sorry, 1 phase, yes.

[Flep182]

I still highly doubt that the average house will use anything 3 phase, the stove you describing is probably business grade, now if it is a matter of "quantity" then it makes perfect sense

Yep, it is the quantity: https://www.beemster.nl/en/expertise/three-phased-connections/