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Author Topic: George Selgin advocates Bitcoin AGAIN  (Read 5398 times)
cypherdoc
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May 16, 2012, 03:52:22 PM
 #41

i think Selgin believes "someone" (who undoubtedly will have a vested interest) can set up a desktop computer, program it for 2% inflation, hardcode the software so that the algorithm can't be changed, and then tie the global financial system to it.  

I think that "cypherdoc" is pretty dumb, but we already know that. Selgin on the other hand is actually educated and doesn't come off as a dipshit every time he speaks, so I'm pretty sure he is aware that the "computer" from Friedman's original idea is just a tongue-in-cheek metaphor for legislation with an algorithm to determine the money supply.


no one listens to you so why do you keep talking?
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cypherdoc
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May 16, 2012, 04:19:36 PM
 #42

i'm using the term "democratic" in its purest sense in that Bitcoin does not allow any one group to steal from another thru the inflation tax.  how difficult is that to understand?
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May 16, 2012, 04:45:44 PM
 #43

i'm using the term "democratic" in its purest sense in that Bitcoin does not allow any one group to steal from another thru the inflation tax.  how difficult is that to understand?

Because what you describe is certainly not democratic. What Bitcoin actually is is: honest, free of coercion, voluntary, sovereign and regulated by market consumers, none of which is synonymous with democratic.

democratic [dem-uh-krat-ik]     Origin http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democratic
dem·o·crat·ic   [dem-uh-krat-ik]
adjective
1. pertaining to or of the nature of democracy or a democracy.
2. pertaining to or characterized by the principle of political or social equality for all: democratic treatment.
3. advocating or upholding democracy.
4. (initial capital letter) Politics.
a. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the Democratic party.
b. of, pertaining to, or belonging to the Democratic-Republican party.

dem·o·crat·ic  (dm-krtk) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/democratic
adj.
1. Of, characterized by, or advocating democracy: democratic government; a democratic union.
2. Of or for the people in general; popular: a democratic movement; democratic art forms.
3. Believing in or practicing social equality: "a proper democratic scorn for bloated dukes and lords" (George du Maurier).
4. Democratic Of, relating to, or characteristic of the Democratic Party.


And before you make a post saying Bitcoin is democratic because of socio-economic or political equality of all it's users I really hope you realize that actually is not the case. Bitcoin users much like people in general aren't equal, they aren't even equally bound by Bitcoin's rules since those mining hold the power to change their rule enforcement to favor one group over the other.

The only thing the people equally have is the freedom to start using Bitcoin, that's it and there's nothing democratic about that.

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Portnoy
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May 16, 2012, 05:19:35 PM
 #44

Lets try a little etymology:
Democracy, from the Greek demokratia "popular government," from demos "common people," + kratos "rule, strength"

Bitcoin is very much democratic.    Tongue

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May 16, 2012, 05:24:23 PM
 #45

Lets try a little etymology:
Democracy, from the Greek demokratia "popular government," from demos "common people," + kratos "rule, strength"

Bitcoin is very much democratic.    Tongue

Yeah? Bitcoin is/has a government?  Roll Eyes

I'm trying really hard to restrain myself from using some nasty adjectives for your argument.  Angry

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cypherdoc
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May 16, 2012, 06:55:05 PM
 #46

i'm using the term "democratic" in its purest sense in that Bitcoin does not allow any one group to steal from another thru the inflation tax.  how difficult is that to understand?

Because what you describe is certainly not democratic. What Bitcoin actually is is: honest, free of coercion, voluntary, sovereign and regulated by market consumers, none of which is synonymous with democratic.

democratic [dem-uh-krat-ik]     Origin http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democratic
dem·o·crat·ic   [dem-uh-krat-ik]
adjective
1. pertaining to or of the nature of democracy or a democracy.
2. pertaining to or characterized by the principle of political or social equality for all: democratic treatment.
3. advocating or upholding democracy.
4. (initial capital letter) Politics.
a. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the Democratic party.
b. of, pertaining to, or belonging to the Democratic-Republican party.

dem·o·crat·ic  (dm-krtk) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/democratic
adj.
1. Of, characterized by, or advocating democracy: democratic government; a democratic union.
2. Of or for the people in general; popular: a democratic movement; democratic art forms.
3. Believing in or practicing social equality: "a proper democratic scorn for bloated dukes and lords" (George du Maurier).
4. Democratic Of, relating to, or characteristic of the Democratic Party.

this whole definition is self referencing except for the part about social equality which i agree with.
Quote

And before you make a post saying Bitcoin is democratic because of socio-economic or political equality of all it's users I really hope you realize that actually is not the case. Bitcoin users much like people in general aren't equal, they aren't even equally bound by Bitcoin's rules since those mining hold the power to change their rule enforcement to favor one group over the other.

The only thing the people equally have is the freedom to start using Bitcoin, that's it and there's nothing democratic about that.

what evidence to you have that miners have changed the rules to benefit themselves?  i don't see it.

and as long as Bitcoin doesn't get debased casual users won't be abused by others using Bitcoin such as miners.
hazek
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May 16, 2012, 07:04:44 PM
 #47

Miners have the ability to do so while casual users do not. Where in these facts do you see your eulogized democratic equality is my question..?

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cypherdoc
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May 16, 2012, 07:08:15 PM
 #48

Miners have the ability to do so while casual users do not. Where in these facts do you see your eulogized democratic equality is my question..?

i asked you for an example of when miners have "abused" this supposed advantage?  don't have one?  then forget your argument.

in fact a great example of when they were forced to capitulate was when Deepbit eventually had to support Gavin's BIP 16 due to the majority opinion.

again, if miners abused their power, casual users would cease to use Bitcoin resulting in tanking of the entire system to the miners loss.
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May 16, 2012, 07:33:38 PM
 #49

Lets try a little etymology:
Democracy, from the Greek demokratia "popular government," from demos "common people," + kratos "rule, strength"

Bitcoin is very much democratic.    Tongue

Yeah? Bitcoin is/has a government?  Roll Eyes

Do we need to get into definitions of "govern" as well.   Roll Eyes

A few synonyms should suffice:
control, sway, influence, conduct, supervise, superintend.

Bitcoin is supervised by the common people.
Who are these "common people" allowed into that position?
Whoever wants to participate...
i.e. it is democratic. 


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Rockford99
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May 16, 2012, 09:53:06 PM
 #50

what is referred to as a "frozen brick" fiat system - at least once the supply freezes in 2030.  George is a very passionate instructor and my friends and I feel we received excellent training at UGA. An honest money should either hold its purchasing power or (preferably) increase in value over time.
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May 17, 2012, 01:34:35 AM
 #51

Lets try a little etymology:
Democracy, from the Greek demokratia "popular government," from demos "common people," + kratos "rule, strength"

Bitcoin is very much democratic.    Tongue

Yeah? Bitcoin is/has a government?  Roll Eyes

Do we need to get into definitions of "govern" as well.   Roll Eyes

A few synonyms should suffice:
control, sway, influence, conduct, supervise, superintend.

Bitcoin is supervised by the common people.
Who are these "common people" allowed into that position?
Whoever wants to participate...
i.e. it is democratic. 


+1. The "government" in this particular example is the set of rules and concepts that binds together the Bitcoin ecosystem. As you know, anyone that does not follow the rules gets kicked out, but if a majority of the network change a rule, that is what starts getting accepted.

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hazek
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May 17, 2012, 02:09:42 AM
 #52

Lets try a little etymology:
Democracy, from the Greek demokratia "popular government," from demos "common people," + kratos "rule, strength"

Bitcoin is very much democratic.    Tongue

Yeah? Bitcoin is/has a government?  Roll Eyes

Do we need to get into definitions of "govern" as well.   Roll Eyes

A few synonyms should suffice:
control, sway, influence, conduct, supervise, superintend.

Bitcoin is supervised by the common people.
Who are these "common people" allowed into that position?
Whoever wants to participate...
i.e. it is democratic. 


+1. The "government" in this particular example is the set of rules and concepts that binds together the Bitcoin ecosystem. As you know, anyone that does not follow the rules gets kicked out, but if a majority of the network change a rule, that is what starts getting accepted.

Wrong. If majority starts enforcing a new rule, it's no longer bitcoin. It does not matter how few people use the original code, they can still use it in their own fork. There is no government, there's just a tool that has rules that you either use and follow or you don't, there are no buts.

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rjk
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May 17, 2012, 02:25:50 AM
 #53

Lets try a little etymology:
Democracy, from the Greek demokratia "popular government," from demos "common people," + kratos "rule, strength"

Bitcoin is very much democratic.    Tongue

Yeah? Bitcoin is/has a government?  Roll Eyes

Do we need to get into definitions of "govern" as well.   Roll Eyes

A few synonyms should suffice:
control, sway, influence, conduct, supervise, superintend.

Bitcoin is supervised by the common people.
Who are these "common people" allowed into that position?
Whoever wants to participate...
i.e. it is democratic. 


+1. The "government" in this particular example is the set of rules and concepts that binds together the Bitcoin ecosystem. As you know, anyone that does not follow the rules gets kicked out, but if a majority of the network change a rule, that is what starts getting accepted.

Wrong. If majority starts enforcing a new rule, it's no longer bitcoin. It does not matter how few people use the original code, they can still use it in their own fork. There is no government, there's just a tool that has rules that you either use and follow or you don't, there are no buts.
I'm sorry to squash your delusions, but what I am telling you is HOW THE SYSTEM ALREADY WORKS. Remember P2SH? Remember how NOT implementing it caused blocks to be rejected? That is because a MAJORITY of the miners changed their code to make it happen, and those that didn't lost out.

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May 17, 2012, 02:39:01 AM
 #54

I'm sorry to squash your delusions, but what I am telling you is HOW THE SYSTEM ALREADY WORKS. Remember P2SH? Remember how NOT implementing it caused blocks to be rejected? That is because a MAJORITY of the miners changed their code to make it happen, and those that didn't lost out.

P2SH tightened the rules of what would be accepted.  You are right that a majority can enforce this.  If a majority wanted to loosen the rules, the more restrictive ruleset could continue on as a separate fork since the new transactions would be rejected by those miners who decided not to upgrade.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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hazek
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May 17, 2012, 02:42:35 AM
 #55

I'm sorry to squash your delusions, but what I am telling you is HOW THE SYSTEM ALREADY WORKS. Remember P2SH? Remember how NOT implementing it caused blocks to be rejected? That is because a MAJORITY of the miners changed their code to make it happen, and those that didn't lost out.

P2SH tightened the rules of what would be accepted.  You are right that a majority can enforce this.  If a majority wanted to loosen the rules, the more restrictive ruleset could continue on as a separate fork since the new transactions would be rejected by those miners who decided not to upgrade.

Precisely.

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May 17, 2012, 03:06:05 AM
 #56

I'm sorry to squash your delusions, but what I am telling you is HOW THE SYSTEM ALREADY WORKS. Remember P2SH? Remember how NOT implementing it caused blocks to be rejected? That is because a MAJORITY of the miners changed their code to make it happen, and those that didn't lost out.

P2SH tightened the rules of what would be accepted.  You are right that a majority can enforce this.  If a majority wanted to loosen the rules, the more restrictive ruleset could continue on as a separate fork since the new transactions would be rejected by those miners who decided not to upgrade.

Precisely.
Forking is an unwanted byproduct that results in the ability to double-spend. This is a good thing in what way?

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hazek
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May 17, 2012, 03:19:34 AM
 #57

I'm sorry to squash your delusions, but what I am telling you is HOW THE SYSTEM ALREADY WORKS. Remember P2SH? Remember how NOT implementing it caused blocks to be rejected? That is because a MAJORITY of the miners changed their code to make it happen, and those that didn't lost out.

P2SH tightened the rules of what would be accepted.  You are right that a majority can enforce this.  If a majority wanted to loosen the rules, the more restrictive ruleset could continue on as a separate fork since the new transactions would be rejected by those miners who decided not to upgrade.

Precisely.
Forking is an unwanted byproduct that results in the ability to double-spend. This is a good thing in what way?

Making mere statements doesn't make a thing a thing. So before you ask silly questions make sure you got the facts right. Fact is forking isn't what you say it is.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

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May 17, 2012, 03:33:14 AM
 #58

I'm sorry to squash your delusions, but what I am telling you is HOW THE SYSTEM ALREADY WORKS. Remember P2SH? Remember how NOT implementing it caused blocks to be rejected? That is because a MAJORITY of the miners changed their code to make it happen, and those that didn't lost out.

P2SH tightened the rules of what would be accepted.  You are right that a majority can enforce this.  If a majority wanted to loosen the rules, the more restrictive ruleset could continue on as a separate fork since the new transactions would be rejected by those miners who decided not to upgrade.

Precisely.
Forking is an unwanted byproduct that results in the ability to double-spend. This is a good thing in what way?

Making mere statements doesn't make a thing a thing. So before you ask silly questions make sure you got the facts right. Fact is forking isn't what you say it is.
Actually it is, because coins can be spent on both sides of a fork, unless the protocol change is so radical that it invalidates the coins themselves. And in that case, there is no reason to fork it, it would be simpler to start over on another blockchain.

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May 17, 2012, 10:17:32 AM
 #59

Actually you are right. But you are wrong asking the question "This is good in what way?"

It's irrelevant whether or not it's good, the original question was whether or not Bitcoin is or has a government and the ability to fork it, what ever this would actually mean for the value of the system, proves it does not. If I want to use Bitcoin, I can, however I cannot force others to use my version of Bitcoin even if I modify the original Bitcoin and have enough rule enforcement power which is something a government could do.

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May 17, 2012, 01:22:31 PM
 #60

Actually you are right. But you are wrong asking the question "This is good in what way?"

It's irrelevant whether or not it's good, the original question was whether or not Bitcoin is or has a government and the ability to fork it, what ever this would actually mean for the value of the system, proves it does not. If I want to use Bitcoin, I can, however I cannot force others to use my version of Bitcoin even if I modify the original Bitcoin and have enough rule enforcement power which is something a government could do.

why are u getting so "hung up" on the definitions of what ppl are trying to say?  such as "democracy" or "government"?

such as, i know exactly what rjk is trying to say when he says the governing rules of Bitcoin are the source code and algorithm which govern the Bitcoin community and network.

i also am convinced that democratic principles apply to Bitcoin.  miners can try to subvert the system to their benefit if they want but if it violates the wants or desires of the majority of users, they will simply leave.  no users, no network, no miners.  period.

users are not "forced" to use Bitcoin.  they have a choice unlike USD's here in the US which have to be used for a variety of purposes, taxes being one.
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