Help me relay a double-spend transaction

[yakuza699]

Now before everyone's going to say double-spending is impossible i want to say that i want to make a double-spend attempt  means one transaction will confirm and one will drop.
I had a success on double-spending these tx's f34a12f0c153055ef8d9ca4c917861de9130651495c21b9eba792050a07bfa71,604ff6cb6b605420139adfbf91fd31266cdafcb7ccd163cfbdbdf5a4fa7a1881 but that was mostly a poor luck because Eligius and BTC Guild have forgotten about my first transaction which had 0 fee. What i want to make is either push two transactions at exactly same time that will both get relayed and get on the network but in the end only one will confirm or either discover a node which relays double-spend tx's and will allow me to double-spend that transaction at any time.I haven't yet tried Petter Todd's Replace-by-Fee Tools, Double Spend feature but that is just because as far as i can tell it creates two transactions one with low fee and one with big and i want to create two transactions which both has low fee.

P.S What happened to https://blockchain.info/create-double-spend

[shorena]

uhm thats not a double spend. They use different inputs.

[yakuza699]

uhm thats not a double spend. They use different inputs.

You miss understood me https://blockchain.info doesn't show their double-spend tx's any more but those two separate transactions had their double-spend transactions and it was listed on their site the thing is that my double-spends were successful there was no reason for https://blockchain.info to list those other transaction anymore as they would have never confirmed.

[shorena]

Maybe I dont understand, but what I see is:

TXa[1] that uses the output (0.06 BTC) form TXb[2] as an input and TXc [3] that uses the output of TXa (0.059 BTC) as an input and generates an output (0.058 BTC) that is spend in TXd [4] creating two new outputs of 0.057 and 0.0001, both currently unspend.

A double spend would be if two TX had the same inputs, which makes it impossible that both will confirm. And frankly I would take anything bc.i shows with a grain of salt. I tends to be wrong on a regular basis. Most recent example would be the 6 orphaned blocks in a row.

What exactly are you trying to do?


[1] https://blockchain.info/tx/604ff6cb6b605420139adfbf91fd31266cdafcb7ccd163cfbdbdf5a4fa7a1881
[2] https://blockchain.info/tx/3cf4c99b0a3b245a39d5bb68acfeb721eba96b2b034e75d8729bc9181bc8494d
[3] https://blockchain.info/tx/f34a12f0c153055ef8d9ca4c917861de9130651495c21b9eba792050a07bfa71
[4] https://blockchain.info/tx/1af41efbdc0370f39f81c0bc2a68392a6243fc8e3edd4d48d5ffb2dae4c0931f

[amaclin]

Now before everyone's going to say double-spending is impossible i want to say that i want to make a double-spend attempt  means one transaction will confirm and one will drop.

Right.
Double-spending is impossible
Double-spend attempts are possible and sometimes network confirmes second transaction, not the first one

but that was mostly a poor luck because Eligius and BTC Guild have forgotten about my first transaction which had 0 fee.

Every node cleans its memory-pool from old unconfirmed transactions (usually small transfers with zero-fees).
The difference is that some nodes keep such transactions for several days, Eligius does not keep zero-fee low-priority transactions at all.

What i want to make is either push two transactions at exactly same time that will both get relayed and get on the network but in the end only one will confirm or either discover a node which relays double-spend tx's

Every node which does not keep transactions in memory pool relays the transactions which you call "double-spend".

and will allow me to double-spend that transaction at any time.

You have to find not a relaying node, but a miner which uses "replace-by-fee" patch.
I do not know about such miners, but this is allowed by bitcoin network and bitcoin protocol.
As far as I know, biggest mining pools do not use this techinque.

P.S What happened to https://blockchain.info/create-double-spend

It has been moved to http://respends.thinlink.com/

[yakuza699]

A double spend would be if two TX had the same inputs, which makes it impossible that both will confirm.

Not true at all. Miners will confirm the transaction with higher fee. Or i can spend the change of that transaction(one of the double-spend tx's) and both tx's will get confirmed.

What exactly are you trying to do?

I'm trying to spend same inputs in two transactions.

[amaclin]

Miners will confirm the transaction with higher fee.

Wrong.
Today no one miner with significant hash-power does not use replace-by-fee patch.
Miner either [accepts transaction and rejects all next double-spending attempts] or [drops low-fee transaction]
In second case such miner will accept your "second" transaction

[yakuza699]

Every node cleans its memory-pool from old unconfirmed transactions (usually small transfers with zero-fees).
The difference is that some nodes keep such transactions for several days, Eligius does not keep zero-fee low-priority transactions at all.

OK than but why when i tried to push one of those transactions eligius rejected them (int -22) But this time it was a success i got this but why it rejected it before if you say that they don't keep this kind of transactions at all

Code:

Trying to send...
array(3) {
  ["result"]=>
  string(64) "2e1053b8d201728a90684778379586a3a5703d96779810686be6aeef5e40e220"
  ["error"]=>
  NULL
  ["id"]=>
  string(1) "1"
}
Response = 0

You have to find not a relaying node, but a miner which uses "replace-by-fee" patch.
I do not know about such miners, but this is allowed by bitcoin network and bitcoin protocol.
As far as I know, biggest mining pools do not use this techinque.

Where to find these miners?

It has been moved to http://respends.thinlink.com/

Does it allow me double-spend those tx's and if so how?

[amaclin]

Where to find these miners?

In the bitcoin network of course. Where else?

Does it allow me double-spend those tx's and if so how?

 
No, it was a joke!

[amaclin]

OK than but why when i tried to push one of those transactions eligius rejected them (int -22) But this time it was a success i got this but why it rejected it before if you say that they don't keep this kind of transactions at all

Eligius
1) relays all valid transactions even they are non-standard
2) keeps in memory pool generous transactions or transactions with significant output values

So, if your transaction TX1 transfers very small amount (let us say 0.0002 btc) with zero fees you will be able to send another transaction TX2 which spends the same input through Eligius web-form.

[shorena]

A double spend would be if two TX had the same inputs, which makes it impossible that both will confirm.

Not true at all. Miners will confirm the transaction with higher fee. Or i can spend the change of that transaction(one of the double-spend tx's) and both tx's will get confirmed.

There cant be two with higher fee now can there? See the thing is every node that allready has a TX that spends input A will not accept another TX that spends the exact same input A. I have a feeling that you think "input" means "comes from this address" but that not true. Would a single input be accepted in more than one transaction you would be able to create bitcoin out of thin air. The protocoll is designed to make this impossible.

Yet the term "double spend" is used in so many different ways. Maybe you explain exactly what your plan is.

What amaclin suggest is IMHO not double spend as only one of those two TX will confirm.

[amaclin]

There cant be two with higher fee now can there? See the thing is every node that allready has a TX that spends input A will not accept another TX that spends the exact same input A.

Nodes do not relay "spam" transactions. Different node versions define the term "spam" differently.
So, there are nodes which have tx1 and there are nodes which do not have it.
The point is to locate these nodes and push tx2 to them.

Yet the term "double spend" is used in so many different ways. Maybe you explain exactly what your plan is.
What amaclin suggest is IMHO not double spend as only one of those two TX will confirm.

Of course. As I said earlier, double-spend is impossible in bitcoin.
There is a probability to deceive the recipient of first transaction by sending another transaction which spends the same inputs.
This attack is successful if the recipient accepts 0-confirmed transactions

[DannyHamilton]

Yet the term "double spend" is used in so many different ways. Maybe you explain exactly what your plan is.

Didn't he already explain that?

Now before everyone's going to say double-spending is impossible i want to say that i want to make a double-spend attempt  means one transaction will confirm and one will drop.

He wants to broadcast 2 different transactions that are both similar size (in bytes), include similar fees, and spend at least 1 identical input.  Then he wants just 1 of those transactions to confirm.

From this description:

What I want to make is either:

• Push two transactions at exactly same time to different peers so that will both get relayed and get to different nodes on the network, but in the end only one will confirm
• Or else discover a node which relays double-spend tx's and will allow me to double-spend that transaction at any time.

Edited by me for grammar and clarity.

It sounds to me like OP would be satisfied if he could find software that would connect to multiple peers, and allow him to set up 2 different transactions that spend the same output, then broadcast one of those transactions to half of the connected peers while simultaneously broadcasting the competing transaction to the other half of the connected peers. (blockchain.info used to have a web page that would allow this.  They seem to have gotten rid of it)

It also sounds to me like he would be satisfied if he could find a mining pool that would accept "most recently received" transaction instead of "first received transaction", and if there were a way to send a competing transaction directly to that pool. (I don't think there are any such pools)

It isn't clear to me if he would be satisfied if he could find a mining pool that would accept "highest fee transaction" instead of "first received transaction".  If so, then he could try BitUndo. (although I don't think BitUndo has very much hashing power, so the likelihood that your replacement transaction would be confirmed is pretty slim).

What amaclin suggest is IMHO not double spend as only one of those two TX will confirm.

Correct, but OP only wants one transaction to confirm.  He just seems to want at least a chance of getting a replacement transaction confirmed instead of its competing transaction.

NOTE:  Bitcoin is designed to make it VERY difficult to do what the OP is attempting.  As a technical exercise, it is possible to write software that will broadcast competing transactions simultaneously to multiple peers, but I'm not aware of any such software that is available and safe to download and run.  Aside from simultaneous broadcast, the other things that the OP wants to do would generally require waiting several days for the first transaction to be dropped from most nodes on the network.

[amaclin]

NOTE:  Bitcoin is designed to make it VERY difficult to do what the OP is attempting.

really?  

As a technical exercise, it is possible to write software that will broadcast competing transactions simultaneously to multiple peers, but I'm not aware of any such software that is available and safe to download and run.

Take two modern computers, connect them to internet, install Bitcoin-Core on both of them. Configure their .conf file to use many different peers (use -addnode and -maxconnections options), open console in both clients, paste raw transactions...
...place your right hand thumb on Enter key of first computer...
...place your left hand thumb...

Isn't it easy? No third-party software at all!

Update: May be i missed the OP goal? Sorry, English is not my native lang

[yakuza699]

The point is to locate these nodes and push tx2 to them.

Isn't it impossible to know which node did dropped it and which did not?

Yet the term "double spend" is used in so many different ways. Maybe you explain exactly what your plan is.

Didn't he already explain that?

Now before everyone's going to say double-spending is impossible i want to say that i want to make a double-spend attempt  means one transaction will confirm and one will drop.

He wants to broadcast 2 different transactions that are both similar size (in bytes), include similar fees, and spend at least 1 identical input.  Then he wants just 1 of those transactions to confirm.

From this description:

What I want to make is either:

• Push two transactions at exactly same time to different peers so that will both get relayed and get to different nodes on the network, but in the end only one will confirm
• Or else discover a node which relays double-spend tx's and will allow me to double-spend that transaction at any time.

Edited by me for grammar and clarity.

It sounds to me like OP would be satisfied if he could find software that would connect to multiple peers, and allow him to set up 2 different transactions that spend the same output, then broadcast one of those transactions to half of the connected peers while simultaneously broadcasting the competing transaction to the other half of the connected peers. (blockchain.info used to have a web page that would allow this.  They seem to have gotten rid of it)

It also sounds to me like he would be satisfied if he could find a mining pool that would accept "most recently received" transaction instead of "first received transaction", and if there were a way to send a competing transaction directly to that pool. (I don't think there are any such pools)

It isn't clear to me if he would be satisfied if he could find a mining pool that would accept "highest fee transaction" instead of "first received transaction".  If so, then he could try BitUndo. (although I don't think BitUndo has very much hashing power, so the likelihood that your replacement transaction would be confirmed is pretty slim).

What amaclin suggest is IMHO not double spend as only one of those two TX will confirm.

Correct, but OP only wants one transaction to confirm.  He just seems to want at least a chance of getting a replacement transaction confirmed instead of its competing transaction.

NOTE:  Bitcoin is designed to make it VERY difficult to do what the OP is attempting.  As a technical exercise, it is possible to write software that will broadcast competing transactions simultaneously to multiple peers, but I'm not aware of any such software that is available and safe to download and run.  Aside from simultaneous broadcast, the other things that the OP wants to do would generally require waiting several days for the first transaction to be dropped from most nodes on the network.

You are totally right Danny, as usually.

NOTE:  Bitcoin is designed to make it VERY difficult to do what the OP is attempting.

really?  

Hehehe

...place your right hand thumb on Enter key of first computer...
...place your left hand thumb...

Isn't it easy? No third-party software at all!

Lets say that there may be a 0.4 sec delay (max i guess) does that would matter?

Update: May be i missed the OP goal? Sorry

Well that is basically what you wrote above.

English is not my native lang

Even though English is not your native language you seem to be way better at it than me.

[amaclin]

Isn't it impossible to know which node did dropped it and which did not?

Are you talking about your peers? It is possible.
Or may be you are talking about any node?

Lets say that there may be a 0.4 sec delay (max i guess) does that would matter?

Let us connect our first instance to nodes running bitcoin v0.8.x (use -connect option)
The second instance should be connected to nodes on v0.9.x...
OK, I've gave you more than enough clues... Use your brain how to send two transactions... 

Even though English is not your native language you seem to be way better at it than me.

Oups... We look as two disabled persons here 

[DannyHamilton]

Even though English is not your native language you seem to be way better at it than me.

Oups... We look as two disabled persons here 

I must admit, it is a bit entertaining watching two people who don't speak English natively attempt to use English to communicate.  It will be even more entertaining if it turns out that you both speak the same native language and didn't realize it.

[bitcoinbeliever]

P.S What happened to https://blockchain.info/create-double-spend

It has been moved to http://respends.thinlink.com/

That site doesn't help author double-spends, but it will relay them, which OP originally asked for although he really wanted a friendly miner.

The site also has a record of the spends seen earlier (unlike blockchain)

http://respends.thinlink.com/tx/f34a12f0c153055ef8d9ca4c917861de9130651495c21b9eba792050a07bfa71
First seen in a block 12d after earlier tx 3d58d4417ce83003553c23c3c97cd942a6da8506864aa14af8dc963d618c1f9a

http://respends.thinlink.com/tx/604ff6cb6b605420139adfbf91fd31266cdafcb7ccd163cfbdbdf5a4fa7a1881
Seen on network 16h after earlier tx 333f27b77bea035e7e9a7a2551f55e395410945ebdc24d5c145b0cab0009d1cd.  Then confirmed.

[yakuza699]

That site doesn't help author double-spends, but it will relay them, which OP originally asked for although he really wanted a friendly miner.

Ok but how do i add that node? should i just

Code:

bitcoind -connect=respends.thinklink.com

Or is there any other command to add http://respends.thinlink.com as a node as i don't really see any ip address of that node and yes with a friendly miner it would be a lot easier.

Or may be you are talking about any node?

Yes i was talking about it, is it possible? I don't think it is.

Let us connect our first instance to nodes running bitcoin v0.8.x (use -connect option)

Is there a command like -connect=0.8.6 or should i just pick a random node?

In the bitcoin network of course. Where else?

Explain how to do that? On the bitcoin explorers or there is some kind of a command on bitcoind.
Also i was trying to double-spend this transaction  https://blockchain.info/tx/22308747e3ef69eb644b7a0ca95a4a12c05a9c8b48b5716731df9003e2218951 but i failed at first when i tried to push it to eligius i got this tx 65de3c6742428edf285aac19dda405bcd70d9b9ffa21f9755fe7c2d4440f77bf i fault it's going to confirm in next block but it didn't. Push this transaction and tell me how you did it(everyone is eligable)

Code:

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[amaclin]

just

Code:

sendrawtransaction 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and received responce from my Bitcoin-qt

Code:

7a0b66873d85df5e14a5d67c46eb4de9a828dcef72f4b61399384f5f1ad7963c

now we should wait...

update #1: the second transaction logged on http://respends.thinlink.com/
http://respends.thinlink.com/tx/7a0b66873d85df5e14a5d67c46eb4de9a828dcef72f4b61399384f5f1ad7963c

update #2: none of these transactions will be mined by Eligius. Eligius asks for 0.0001 fee per 1000 bytes. your transaction is more than 3kb but pays only 0.0003

update #2.1: I do not understand your words about 65de3c6742428edf285aac19dda405bcd70d9b9ffa21f9755fe7c2d4440f77bf
Have you tried to push double-spending transaction to Eligius? If you paid only 0.0003 fee - Eliguis accepts it, relays is, but will not mine it