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Shiver
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April 27, 2012, 12:22:18 PM
 #21

And another thing:

This next link is about Vit C, not MMS, but the quotes are just as relevant in a Bitcoin sense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0GC9Fq8lfg   (42:27 thu 43:52 for those who don't have time to plough through the whole thing).
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April 27, 2012, 03:22:57 PM
 #22

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If you take sodium chlorite and an acid, there is chlorine dioxide (which can save your life if you have pneumonia or something - but I'm not advocating snorting it or breathing it daily or anything like that).  My AZT reference is it's a nasty drug, and MMS will neutralise the drug (also the HIV symptoms go away, but yay AZT!  I know people personally with HIV, and they are symptomless - really!).  Anyhow I'm drifting from my point.  SC + Acid creates Acified Sodium Chlorite.  Now if you think about that in chemical terms (and I'd like to refer you to the document "3 years of HCl Therapy" which is about 80 years old.  If you put an acid like HCl, or give blood, or remove blood, then your immune system goes "WFT?" and kicks into action.  This is where I disagree with Humble, but tend to keep my mouth shut.  I *know* it works in many many cases, but I never make claims, because the reason I think it works is different than what most other people think.  If you drink Chlorine dioxide, the food in your belly will neutralise it in about 15 seconds.  If you don't believe me but want to test this without putting anyones life at risk, then acify some sodium chlorite (thereby making chlorine dioxide gas, which gives colour to the liquid) then put some food (eg. a piece of pizza in there) and you'll see with your eyes the gas is gone.  Now, if you consider that your immune system spends about 60% of it's time cleaning up the junk you eat, and the air that you breathe, and something can a) clean up the food and/or b) stimulate the immune system by creating an imbalance by whatever means, then the immune system is free to get on with other chores, like fighting whatever condition ails you, so you get a double bonus.

This is what I am talking about. You have no data. You have a logical-sounding narrative. So what? Anyone can make one up to support anything. Finding some anecdotes and literature to go along isn't difficult either. This is the old way of thinking. People only need to use this way when they don't have the tools necessary to actually test their ideas in the real world.

You are at... Construct hypothesis:

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April 27, 2012, 04:57:34 PM
 #23



Honestly I know nothing about MMS other than it is one more bullshit "cure" for people to take and it is some kind of diluted oxidizing agent.
It is not just another bullshit miracle cure, it's a highly toxic bullshit miracle cure. It is not just a dilute oxidising agent. When formulated according to the instructions, it produces a highly poisonous gas.

I think this is FUD. More people would die if that was the case. What is your source for this?
Jim Humble, the creator of MMS, states openly that MMS consists of chlorine dioxide, which is produced by "activating" sodium chlorite. The method by which MMS is "activated" is very similar to the method used in industrial production of chlorine dioxide. It is not FUD to say that MMS produces chlorine dioxide. The guy who created it is the one saying it. Chlorine dioxide is known to be a highly poisonous gas (see the above link). Sodium chlorite is also poisonous. These substances are not diluted to safe levels either: Jim Humble recommends a 28% solution of sodium chlorite.

It is believed that more people have died from MMS, though I only mentioned the one death specifically because that's the only case I could find where there was hard evidence. Claims that other people have died from MMS are not unbelievable, given how toxic these substances are.


Ok. Here are some mixing instructions I found:

Quote
Start with 1 drop of Sodium Chlorite 28% solution in an empty glass. Add 5 drops of Citric Acid 10% solution creating a 1:5 ratio. Swirl to mix and let sit 3 minuets. Then add 1/3 to 2/3 glass of water or juice (with no vitamin “C” added). Drink solution.  Gradually increase 1 drop of Sodium Chlorite 28% solution + 5 drops of Citric Acid 10% solution untill you reach 15 drops Sodium Chlorite 28% Solution and 75 drops of Citric Acid 10% solution three times a day for 2 weeks. Only increse by one drop of Sodium Chlorite and 5 drops of Citric Acid maintaining the 1:5 ratio. Never jump more then one drop per use. Reduce to maintanance dose (six drops Sodium Chlorite + 30 drops of Citric Acid twice a week). If nausea occurs reduce one or two drops of Sodium Chlorite and five or ten drops of Citric Acid. Resume until you reach the desired dose. Never exceed 15 drops of Sodium Chlorite.



I actually can't figure out what the actual dosage is here because I have no idea how the original 28% concentration was calculated. g/100 ml? oz/fl.oz? Either way, you can see that even this 28% solution has been already diluted with distilled water. The total volume of that bottle is supposedly 3 oz, but the website has a picture for a 5 oz bottle with the same label. It is clear these people do not know what they are doing.

Anyway:
1) 2.75 oz Sodium Chlorite 28% + 0.25 oz H2O -> 3 oz Sodium Chlorite 25.66%

2) One drop Sodium Chlorite 25.66% + Five drops Citric Acid 10% -> .3 ml sodium chlorite 4.2%
-a drop is I guess .05 ml.

3) Stir and let sit for 3 minutes.
- Maybe someone more up on their chemistry can help out here, but this step is probably generating sodium citrate and chlorous acid. The chlorous acid is then dissociating into whatever, none of these compounds look stable to me. Some of the citric acid is perhaps reducing the sodium chlorite to yield chlorine dioxide. You let it sit for 3 minutes... so the majority of this gas will leach into the air.

4) Solubility of chlorine dioxide is 8 grams per liter. Since we have .0003 liters of solution, there could be a max 2.4 mg of chlorine dioxide.
-The concentration will be less since this is not occurring in a closed container.

5) You then dilute this further with 1/3 a glass of water. A glass is about 250 ml.

6) So, if no reactions had occured we would now have about 85 ml of 0.015% sodium chlorite solution. In reality it will be a mixture of sodium chlorite, sodium citrate, chlorine dioxide, hydrochloric acid, and chloric acid. Chlorine dioxide will vaporize. The others will either slowly dissociate into oxygen and chlorine gas or remain until the stuff is drunk. At this point they will react with various things in your GI tract. I don't think any of this will make it out of there.


tl/dr: 85 ml of less than 0.015% sodium chlorite solution, but we don't know what % means
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April 27, 2012, 07:03:14 PM
 #24

Apparently chlorate may get absorbed, which would mean chlorite likely does as well.

Quote
In conclusion, when radiolabeled chlorate was dosed intraruminally,
radioactivity rapidly appeared in the systemic circulation,
suggesting that rapid absorption of the chlorate molecule
occurred.
http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/9309/1/IND43927546.pdf

Read the study above shiver. This is the kind of stuff you need to have answers to if you want people to take you seriously.
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April 30, 2012, 10:44:03 AM
 #25

Apparently chlorate may get absorbed, which would mean chlorite likely does as well.

Quote
In conclusion, when radiolabeled chlorate was dosed intraruminally,
radioactivity rapidly appeared in the systemic circulation,
suggesting that rapid absorption of the chlorate molecule
occurred.
http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/9309/1/IND43927546.pdf

Read the study above shiver. This is the kind of stuff you need to have answers to if you want people to take you seriously.


I thought we were talking about Bitcoin and Sovereignty, but just to answer your question:

1.  The above is about chlorate, not *sodium* *chlorite*, acified sodium chlorite, or chlorine dioxide gas.
2.  Number of participants is not statistically solid, but lets ignore that as I'm not looking for a cop out.  Let's instead look at the numbers:  between 21.4 and 63.8mg/Kg were administered.  If you compare that the an average bottle of MMS1 being 120ml and 22.4% (since Sodium Chlorite is only shipped at 80% purity, the rest being sodium chloride), we get a maximum dose of 0.056mg per *person* (not per Kg), so if the average person was say 80Kg, that would be 0.0007mg rather than as much as 63.8mg - care to calculate that difference in percentage terms?  Millions of percent.  Still, it cleaned out the intestinal tract of the heifers pretty good don't you think?  At that dose it would probably take up all available hemoglobin for transport (if we're talking about a gas here) and prevent oxygen distribution, so I wouldn't personally want to try it, but we're not talking about the same thing at all.

Anyhow, about Bitcoin....  Enough about the MMS bashing as it's off topic.


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April 30, 2012, 03:31:16 PM
 #26

Apparently chlorate may get absorbed, which would mean chlorite likely does as well.

Quote
In conclusion, when radiolabeled chlorate was dosed intraruminally,
radioactivity rapidly appeared in the systemic circulation,
suggesting that rapid absorption of the chlorate molecule
occurred.
http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/9309/1/IND43927546.pdf

Read the study above shiver. This is the kind of stuff you need to have answers to if you want people to take you seriously.


I thought we were talking about Bitcoin and Sovereignty, but just to answer your question:

1.  The above is about chlorate, not *sodium* *chlorite*, acified sodium chlorite, or chlorine dioxide gas.
2.  Number of participants is not statistically solid, but lets ignore that as I'm not looking for a cop out.  Let's instead look at the numbers:  between 21.4 and 63.8mg/Kg were administered.  If you compare that the an average bottle of MMS1 being 120ml and 22.4% (since Sodium Chlorite is only shipped at 80% purity, the rest being sodium chloride), we get a maximum dose of 0.056mg per *person* (not per Kg), so if the average person was say 80Kg, that would be 0.0007mg rather than as much as 63.8mg - care to calculate that difference in percentage terms?  Millions of percent.  Still, it cleaned out the intestinal tract of the heifers pretty good don't you think?  At that dose it would probably take up all available hemoglobin for transport (if we're talking about a gas here) and prevent oxygen distribution, so I wouldn't personally want to try it, but we're not talking about the same thing at all.

Anyhow, about Bitcoin....  Enough about the MMS bashing as it's off topic.




I meant that you should perform a similar study using chlorite, so that there is data out there on the pharmacokinetics, and effectiveness. This is superior to just assuming MMS works the way you think it works.

And back to soveriegnty. I remain unconvinced the FDA should be involved in this. If it is fraud then why is the FBI not sufficient? The FDA should stick to making sure the stuff we buy at the store is what the label says it is without contamination.
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May 01, 2012, 05:23:18 AM
 #27

It would be nice to have the funds to do a study like that.  I personally am nowhere near that kind of financial clout.

It's not an FBI case, and shouldn't even be an FDA case, since they deal with Food, Drugs and Cosmetics.  There should be no case, as it's a private membership, and more than that he'd even written to them before starting it, just as a precaution asking if they had any issue, and gave them 10 days to respond, after which he would assume by default that they gave consent.  There was no reply, just a long wait (about 6 months), then armed guards bursting into his house with his wife and family there, seizing all financial assets and stock, but no arrest.

The latest trick they've just pulled is to send him mail to "L. Daniel Smith" rather than "Daniel Smith", and after he opened it and seeing it was "L. Daniel Smith" realised that they'd duped him on another count, which goes like this (and I quote):

"18 U.S.C. § 1702

Whoever takes any letter, postal card, or package out of any post office or any authorized depository for mail matter, or from any letter or mail carrier, or which has been in any post office or authorized depository, or in the custody of any letter or mail carrier, before it has been delivered to the person to whom it was directed, with design to obstruct the correspondence, or to pry into the business or secrets of another, or opens, secretes, embezzles, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. "

So now they're aiming for mail fraud too as a backup. 

Shameful. 

Too late now though, the trial is just hours away.
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May 01, 2012, 03:10:08 PM
 #28

It would be nice to have the funds to do a study like that.  I personally am nowhere near that kind of financial clout.

It's not an FBI case, and shouldn't even be an FDA case, since they deal with Food, Drugs and Cosmetics.  There should be no case, as it's a private membership, and more than that he'd even written to them before starting it, just as a precaution asking if they had any issue, and gave them 10 days to respond, after which he would assume by default that they gave consent.  There was no reply, just a long wait (about 6 months), then armed guards bursting into his house with his wife and family there, seizing all financial assets and stock, but no arrest.

The latest trick they've just pulled is to send him mail to "L. Daniel Smith" rather than "Daniel Smith", and after he opened it and seeing it was "L. Daniel Smith" realised that they'd duped him on another count, which goes like this (and I quote):

"18 U.S.C. § 1702

Whoever takes any letter, postal card, or package out of any post office or any authorized depository for mail matter, or from any letter or mail carrier, or which has been in any post office or authorized depository, or in the custody of any letter or mail carrier, before it has been delivered to the person to whom it was directed, with design to obstruct the correspondence, or to pry into the business or secrets of another, or opens, secretes, embezzles, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. "

So now they're aiming for mail fraud too as a backup. 

Shameful. 

Too late now though, the trial is just hours away.

What BS. If the guy is actually hurting people with what he is doing then why can't they pin something on him?
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May 01, 2012, 03:14:21 PM
 #29

It would be nice to have the funds to do a study like that.  I personally am nowhere near that kind of financial clout.

It's not an FBI case, and shouldn't even be an FDA case, since they deal with Food, Drugs and Cosmetics.  There should be no case, as it's a private membership, and more than that he'd even written to them before starting it, just as a precaution asking if they had any issue, and gave them 10 days to respond, after which he would assume by default that they gave consent.  There was no reply, just a long wait (about 6 months), then armed guards bursting into his house with his wife and family there, seizing all financial assets and stock, but no arrest.

The latest trick they've just pulled is to send him mail to "L. Daniel Smith" rather than "Daniel Smith", and after he opened it and seeing it was "L. Daniel Smith" realised that they'd duped him on another count, which goes like this (and I quote):

"18 U.S.C. § 1702

Whoever takes any letter, postal card, or package out of any post office or any authorized depository for mail matter, or from any letter or mail carrier, or which has been in any post office or authorized depository, or in the custody of any letter or mail carrier, before it has been delivered to the person to whom it was directed, with design to obstruct the correspondence, or to pry into the business or secrets of another, or opens, secretes, embezzles, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. "

So now they're aiming for mail fraud too as a backup. 

Shameful. 

Too late now though, the trial is just hours away.

Do you have a url for a the trial? It will be on http://dockets.justia.com

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May 02, 2012, 07:28:48 AM
 #30

He's not hurting people, he's helping people!


Court case is:

Eastern District of Washington
U.S. District Court (Spokane)
CIVIL DOCKET FOR CASE #: 2:11-cv-00317-EFS

United States of America v. $22,361.83 US Funds Seized from Various Accounts et al
Assigned to: Judge Edward F. Shea
Cause: 21:841 Forfeiture Property-Drugs   
Date Filed: 08/26/2011
Jury Demand: None
Nature of Suit: 690 Forfeit/Penalty: Other
Jurisdiction: U.S. Government Plaintiff



I don't know why the above says "Jury Demand: None", as it is a Grand Jury pre-trial, or whatever the technical name for a pre-trial is (to determine if there is to be a trial proper.
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May 02, 2012, 07:34:26 AM
 #31

He's not hurting people, he's helping people!

How does he know for sure he is helping and not hurting? Surely different people respond differently to MMS.
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May 03, 2012, 07:38:13 PM
 #32

Yes.

Though different people respond differently to different things.  I don't know why this keeps coming back to MMS, it's not about MMS, it's about Sovereignty and Freedom.

MMS is an oxidant, and too much of anything is probably not good for you.  Me personally I would say it's about balance.  Give your body both and let it decide.  Your body is smart.  The legal system, well that depends on how you view it and under what context you might want to define it as smart.

It's all a moot point since I revoked my original request.  I was hoping, actually confident, that the Bitcoin community would understand this, but I feel deflated and drained that I met resistance on this subject.  I keep checking in on this thread just to keep my 'toe in', but I know now that it's much like the 99% deal where people have an idea that something isn't right, but it's going to be many years and a lot of pain to get to the point of the subject.

I'm going to go away on holiday tomorrow and I'm not even taking a computer with me, my head is too full, so it'll be at least 7-10 days (probably 14, or more, I don't know) before I respond to this thread again, if it even exists by the time I get back online.  Please don't interpret that as capitulation, I will be back online, but not for a week or two, at least, as I perceive it now. I have my own business and personal issues to attend to, but was trying to drum up some interest before taking a vacation, which will be the first in 6, almost 7 years (including not taking christmas day or new years day off in that period), but now I'm doing it to presever my sanity.

Probably best to let this thread die and forget I even mentioned anything.

Paul


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May 16, 2012, 01:24:27 PM
 #33

Only a handful of people here care about personal freedom, most people are are concerned more with either profit or being OCD as much as possible.

Almost no one here understands how corrupt the medical establishment is, especially when it comes to the FDA. Currently the pharmaceutical companies LITERALLY PAY THE FDA's SALARY. Conflict of interest much? Additionally natural (read unpatentable) remedies and cures are ALWAYS vilified, even products known safe and effective for THOUSANDS of years. This is an expansion of the prohibition and for profit incarceration state as well as the criminal black market cartels. If you want real food or medicine in the future you will be buying it on the same block the crack is sold.

People are so sold on their belief system of "science" that they forget who is doing all the "science", and never actually check the empirical data themselves. You want experimental drugs? Visit your local doctor. The real experiment is us. Every day there are more and more drugs recalled from killing THOUSANDS of people. In comparison this single reported death is a success story.

Natural treatments will permanently remain experimental, because no company would ever invest the massive resources needed into turning something they cant patent into a legally marketable treatment that would ultimately reduce their profit, not just in the expenditures, but in the lost sales of synthetic drugs! Why would anyone trying to operate a business do that?!

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May 17, 2012, 11:24:49 PM
 #34

I don't think the "medical establishment" is necessarily corrupt, nor are doctors and researchers dumb. The problem lies in that funding priorities are determined by politicians and bureaucrats. This is on the governmental, corporate, and academic levels. There are many researchers aware of the problems you speak of, it is simply too big for any one person or small group to handle at once. I believe the solution lies in replacing the current system one aspect at a time. The huge success of the "all natural" marketing campaigns being run by food companies speaks to the fact that people want these types of medications if possible and would contribute to their study if provided a suitable means to do so. People also need to be educated on the realities and benefits of science so that they are ready to accept that their pet remedies and cures may not actually work as well as they think they do, or at all. A result saying a remedy does not work is not a bad thing. It is important information.
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May 18, 2012, 01:56:59 AM
 #35

Remember FDA stands for FOOD AND DRUG administration. The two industries are tied at the hip. Additionally do some research on the newest restrictions under codex alimentarious, as well as the monetary expenses for legally marketing any thing consumed by humans intended to act in any medical capacity at all.

Food sellers are now being raided by the FDA regularly for making verifiable claims of resulting positive health effects ANYWHERE. Technically claiming any health effects at all instantly classifies it as a drug and makes it subject to significant regulation by the FDA. The process you are explaining will not be funded by food companies, and not be possible for anything less than millions of dollars with little to no return on investment.

There is profit in treatment, not in cures. These companies have a vested interest in keeping us unhealthy just as long as we can't prove they did it (easier than you would imagine). Even if it could be proven the settlement will usually come nowhere close to the profits generated from sales, therefore making even deadly drugs still profitable. Why would they stop if all they get is a slap on the wrist and a fine that is a fraction of net sales?

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May 18, 2012, 05:11:49 PM
 #36

Remember FDA stands for FOOD AND DRUG administration. The two industries are tied at the hip. Additionally do some research on the newest restrictions under codex alimentarious, as well as the monetary expenses for legally marketing any thing consumed by humans intended to act in any medical capacity at all.

Food sellers are now being raided by the FDA regularly for making verifiable claims of resulting positive health effects ANYWHERE. Technically claiming any health effects at all instantly classifies it as a drug and makes it subject to significant regulation by the FDA. The process you are explaining will not be funded by food companies, and not be possible for anything less than millions of dollars with little to no return on investment.

There is profit in treatment, not in cures. These companies have a vested interest in keeping us unhealthy just as long as we can't prove they did it (easier than you would imagine). Even if it could be proven the settlement will usually come nowhere close to the profits generated from sales, therefore making even deadly drugs still profitable. Why would they stop if all they get is a slap on the wrist and a fine that is a fraction of net sales?

I think you misunderstood my point. If the current legal system does not allow research into "natural remedies" to be profitable, the people interested in such things (of which I think there are many), should band together and fund it out of interest in their own health. I think people would do this if provided a suitable venue to do so.
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May 20, 2012, 05:46:40 AM
 #37

My point is no one will provide it, in fact the industry will fight tooth and nail to destroy any such venue. They are starting to treat natural health care suppliers, mineral, and supplement companies like cocaine dealers with armed swat team raids becoming a regular occurrence. Not because they harmed anyone, or even because there were complaints against the company, but because they are in violation of FDA policy. Selective enforcement at its best. Flood the market with endless legislation, then let the big companies off with a slap on the wrist and destroy everyone else with the letter of the law. 

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May 20, 2012, 06:56:55 PM
 #38

I agree the FDA is not performing a service to society here. But we should distinguish between a venue to fund research into natural remedies from just selling them based on assuming they work because some guy said so and there are a couple anecdotes. I am not sure what legal obstacles there would be to this.

I think many of the people making health claims do not know what they are talking about and are ripping people off, either on purpose or on accident. While I agree that the FDA shouldn't be raiding people (their job should be making sure the stuff in the food/medicine is what it says on the label), I don't think people should be making health claims based off low quality evidence either.
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May 21, 2012, 08:31:50 PM
 #39

The problem is they use the mandate for "public health" to serve the interests of industrial and economic cartels. The pharmaceutical & food industries have a revolving door system with government regulators. They get a job in the industry, go into a government regulation position, then back out into the industry to take advantage of the new regulation they set. If you don't take my word for it just look at the trail they leave. Actually educate yourself on the subject and tell me what I say is not true.

People should be held accountable if they cause damage to others, but the medical industry is whipping up fear and paranoia about natural treatments being some kind of unexplored deadly territory. There is plenty of documentation on the subject if you care to look for it. They sure won't provide it to you. Have to keep those stock options up after all. Plants that grow in your back yard don't pay the bills, and if they do expect the FDA to kick your door in. They need you dependent on the system so you are easily manipulated and controlled as a mass. Anything that creates a system of independence is systematically destroyed, especially in recent years. Additionally, people need to take responsibility for THEMSELVES, and know what they are consuming, natural or synthetic, and what effects it might have on them.

BTW, did you check out codex alimentarius yet?

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May 22, 2012, 10:57:18 AM
 #40

Here is an interesting development:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDsxkfI0O7I

I think Jim is getting a bit old and doddery (perhaps just too many oxidants?) but if you can follow this (11min) vid until where the lady starts talking, this is taking a very interesting turn.

I want to emphasise once more that this is not about MMS, it's about FDA.

Paul
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