varChar
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Activity: 92
Merit: 10
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September 30, 2014, 08:16:38 PM |
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KNC take note http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch, and did so yet again to sell their cloud mining services. They should not get a fourth change (or a fifth chance, in the case of one of the defendants).”
It's interesting to note the FTC called BFL customers "consumers" this blows a hole in the you have to be a business to own miners argument. In the US at least. If the same is proven true in Europe KNC will probably be bankrupted by refunds. I'm going to use every waking minute to find out. The game's afoot. Who has said you need to be a business to own miners? That is a strawman argument. The KNC terms and conditions includes a clear requirement that the purchaser agreed that they were purchasing as a business, not a consumer. Did the BFL TnC include the same term? If not, what does one have to do with the other? Perhaps it's true that it were clear in the terms and condition. I can't tell. But it is so far from enough! They need to do alot more then add it to their ToC. That's what 'konsumentverket' says about it. But for the moment there isn't any report from them about it. It is only what they said. |
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"You Asked For Change, We Gave You Coins" -- casascius
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retro72
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September 30, 2014, 11:40:49 PM |
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Q1) Who has said you need to be a business to own miners? That is a strawman argument.
Q2)The KNC terms and conditions includes a clear requirement that the purchaser agreed that they were purchasing as a business, not a consumer.
Did the BFL TnC include the same term? If not, what does one have to do with the other?
A1) This an argument used by scam artists like Alpha Technology to try to skirt consumer laws A2) Just because you put something in your T&Cs and people agree to it, that doesn't make it legal. If EU consumer law is the same as the US, then no matter what KNC say in their T&Cs, if you are a consumer not a bona fide business then you are covered by EU consumer law and KNC are in the shit. |
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jomay (OP)
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October 01, 2014, 08:33:30 AM |
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KNC take note http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch, and did so yet again to sell their cloud mining services. They should not get a fourth change (or a fifth chance, in the case of one of the defendants).”
It's interesting to note the FTC called BFL customers "consumers" this blows a hole in the you have to be a business to own miners argument. In the US at least. If the same is proven true in Europe KNC will probably be bankrupted by refunds. I'm going to use every waking minute to find out. The game's afoot. Who has said you need to be a business to own miners? That is a strawman argument. The KNC terms and conditions includes a clear requirement that the purchaser agreed that they were purchasing as a business, not a consumer. Did the BFL TnC include the same term? If not, what does one have to do with the other? It's entirely unrelated, as BFL is a US company dealing with US customers/consumers and the US does not have strong consumer protection. The term "all sales are final" for BFL's T&C may be regarded sufficient to reject refunds. However, KnC operates in the EU and sold to EU customers. We have proper laws here and cowboys don't stand a chance in european courts. So we may be successful arguing that we are consumers not businesses. I also think that KnC broke several contract terms even if we run a business. |
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haha00
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Merit: 0
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October 02, 2014, 01:22:29 PM |
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I would be interested in legal action against KNC for my Titan miners. I would be will to split legal costs. If anyone wants to do this or is already doing this, please pm me.
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retro72
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October 02, 2014, 06:58:18 PM |
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Yep, I've been building a case against KNC for a while and its pretty obvious they just made up "no refunds" clause one morning, after the first batch went on sale and are now trying to retroactively apply it to all previous purchases. I've got some pretty funny emails of KNC staff trying to wiggle out of telling me when this policy started. As they have always given refunds in the past. I've had four refunds with no problems. It doesn't matter whether you're a business or consumer. If this wasn't made aware to their customers at the time of purchase they cannot enforce it and they'll be laughed out of court. |
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BoscoMurray
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October 02, 2014, 07:16:35 PM |
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Links not working. Could you please fix. I'm especially interested in the payment page link. Thanks |
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jomay (OP)
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October 03, 2014, 07:42:38 AM |
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Hi Retro, So if I understand correctly, this is the process: 1) Reminder Letter with short deadline for payment 2) 7-10 days after deadline, sent reminder letter 3) 13 days after reminder letter => ready for action I had thought a single letter requesting payment with an appropriate deadline is sufficient. Oh well, I'll write a reminder to KnC. Have you send both already? |
BTC 1NoV8NFSB7eiuK2aABFtBTdUdXhbEdG7Ss
LTC LaFyWSfzKY7CKwwmbxhyf8S2iJvfT7JFtL YAC YKKwR5B64Z9ww971J42vEGVPaema623Tz6
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retro72
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October 03, 2014, 06:52:05 PM |
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Hi Retro, So if I understand correctly, this is the process: 1) Reminder Letter with short deadline for payment 2) 7-10 days after deadline, sent reminder letter 3) 13 days after reminder letter => ready for action I had thought a single letter requesting payment with an appropriate deadline is sufficient. Oh well, I'll write a reminder to KnC. Have you send both already? Yes that's it. 1) invoice with a due date. 2) If due date lapses. The day after send a reminder, with a short deadline 3)7-10 days after the new deadline lapses send a Letter Before Action. 4)If the debt is not settled within 12 days of the Letter Before Action, contact the Swedish Enforcement Authority ( https://www.kronofogden.se/). 5) If they still refuse they will be summoned to court for a judgement The invoice due date passed yesterday for me. I've been busy today so I'm sending a reminder letter on Monday. I'll probably contact the police as well. You can skip steps 2-4 and apply for a court summons immediately. Depending on KNCs response to the reminder and my schedule I might just hire a lawyer and have at it. Interestingly from what I've read you can settle multiple claims at one hearing, a sort of mini class action so cost can be shared by several parties. Obviously all costs are recovered if you win the case. I'll probably shoot a few emails to law firms on Monday to get a better view of the options. |
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proudpak
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October 03, 2014, 08:51:05 PM |
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Hi,
I am also looking for legal advise, action against KnC for my Titan. I know there are lawyers who are asking for retainer money, which does not give any security or guarantee or my money to be returned. I am all open to sign up an agreement to pay 15% of refund money against lawyers fee, expenses. I believe this is fair and if more people join in to file up a joint case for refund they will be making more money out from it. Since KnC is Swedish company, a lawyer from there would be better option.
PM me if anyone has information or working with lawyers for a refund.
Thanks
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jomay (OP)
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October 05, 2014, 01:56:43 PM |
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Hi Retro, So if I understand correctly, this is the process: 1) Reminder Letter with short deadline for payment 2) 7-10 days after deadline, sent reminder letter 3) 13 days after reminder letter => ready for action I had thought a single letter requesting payment with an appropriate deadline is sufficient. Oh well, I'll write a reminder to KnC. Have you send both already? Yes that's it. 1) invoice with a due date. 2) If due date lapses. The day after send a reminder, with a short deadline 3)7-10 days after the new deadline lapses send a Letter Before Action. 4)If the debt is not settled within 12 days of the Letter Before Action, contact the Swedish Enforcement Authority ( https://www.kronofogden.se/). 5) If they still refuse they will be summoned to court for a judgement The invoice due date passed yesterday for me. I've been busy today so I'm sending a reminder letter on Monday. I'll probably contact the police as well. You can skip steps 2-4 and apply for a court summons immediately. Depending on KNCs response to the reminder and my schedule I might just hire a lawyer and have at it. Interestingly from what I've read you can settle multiple claims at one hearing, a sort of mini class action so cost can be shared by several parties. Obviously all costs are recovered if you win the case. I'll probably shoot a few emails to law firms on Monday to get a better view of the options. Yeah, I've sent off the final reminder on Friday. As I am off for vacation in a week I cannot even take the delivery anyways. So if KnC still leaves the delivery to be destroyed if I don't take delivery it is certainly not my fault (besides, I think this is another threat of KnC to make customers obey). Regarding lawyer, haha00 has looked one up. Not sure if it is the best/cheapest choice. However, I think we should all coordinate this effort. The more people are in to one lawsuit, the cheaper/better. As I have written in the other thread, Sweden is the poster child of the EU regarding class action, as they already have procedures in place for it. Interestingly the ECCS has also replied to my complaint and has referred me to ARN. It's about what I was expected. However, I don't really want to wait as long as the ARN procedure may take. |
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digicoin
Legendary
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Activity: 1106
Merit: 1000
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October 05, 2014, 03:52:54 PM |
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I am unhappy with KncMiner's Titan
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retro72
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October 09, 2014, 02:21:24 PM |
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I'm putting together a comprehensive dossier for ARN and the other relevant authorities and news media. Its already at 20 pages and I'm only about half way through. I'll let you know when its finished. As I'm putting this thing together and all the pieces are falling into place, I really can't see how KNC will can justify their position in court. The evidence is pretty damning.
They knowing sold to individuals without informing them these were B2B purchases in order to restrict them of their statutory rights. This was stated nowhere on their site, the only line to state their products were B2B was in the T&Cs which were hidden on the FAQ page without even a direct link.
They then removed the right to refund AFTER many of these consumers had purchased their products, while at the time stating their other products were refundable. The fact that the Titan was non refundable was NOT made clear to customers at the time no matter what Kurt says. This can be easily proved by email conversations I had with KNC the day the Titans went on sale and by looking at the press releases and the product pages.
And to top it off the Titans are not as described, are a potential fire hazard and do not even work. This a failure of epic proportions and the fact KNC are trying to cram this POS product down their customers throats, without any attempt at a resolution or compensation just shows how arrogant and greedy they have become.
You should all write to your local, national and Swedish media outlets. KNC are still seeking investment and with the bitcoin price in free-fall the last thing they need is a ton of bad press.
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BoscoMurray
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October 13, 2014, 05:06:09 PM |
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I have been in touch with Magnus Daar and can confirm he is looking to put a case together against KnC. He is also looking at having many clients, so splitting costs among the group will save a LOT on lawyer fees (although you'd get these back if you win). I'd urge anyone looking for a refund to get in touch with Magnus Daar. |
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mishax1
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Activity: 2898
Merit: 1017
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October 13, 2014, 05:36:43 PM |
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I have been in touch with Magnus Daar and can confirm he is looking to put a case together against KnC. He is also looking at having many clients, so splitting costs among the group will save a LOT on lawyer fees (although you'd get these back if you win). I'd urge anyone looking for a refund to get in touch with Magnus Daar. Are you Swedish ? Most of the customers are not from Sweden so it will not be that easy to "sign a deal" for a legal representation and paying for it upfront. I do want to participate and am willing to pay for it, but it's not easy as sending bitcoins and all done. If some of the issues and concerns could be explained that would be great. Otherwise, receiving emails from a few random titan buyers won't do the trick. Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.." Where to start? |
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damiano
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Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000
103 days, 21 hours and 10 minutes.
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October 13, 2014, 06:22:04 PM |
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BoscoMurray
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October 13, 2014, 07:26:48 PM |
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Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."
Where to start?
I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said: "If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money." "However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days." |
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murraypaul
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October 13, 2014, 09:58:26 PM |
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Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."
Where to start?
I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said: " If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money." "However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days." Have you told them about the part of the T&C where you agreed that we weren't purchasing as a consumer? |
BTC: 16TgAGdiTSsTWSsBDphebNJCFr1NT78xFW
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