Contacting Authorities regarding KnCMiner Titan Neptune

[jomay]

Updates marked as orange.

This thread collects information on relevant authorities and their replies about KnCMiner's business practices. I will do my best to update this post as we get more responses from the authorities. The idea is to avoid double work for the agencies/authorities and us.

There is an option to organize a class action suit. See my other thread if you are interested.


Contacted authorities and websites

Change.org petition
Please participate, it can only help! It has now been passed on to the swedish consumer

Konsumentverket - swedish consumer agency
They had no interest dealing with me and were extremely unhelpful. They only help swedish residents.
If you are a swedish resident, can you please contact them?
You can find your local bureau here.

*Swedish legal aid
If I understand correctly you can still apply for it as a foreigner! Please read the page whether you fulfill certain requirements, particularly if your financial base is less than ~36000$ per year.

*Your Europe - National Contacts
A great resource to find centres for consumer advice (ECC-Net), ombudsman and alternative dispute resolution mechanisms for your EU country of residence.

European Consumer Centre Network (ECC)
I have contacted the ECC for the UK, and for Services. They said that bitcoin mining may be classed as a business activity and I may be considered a business. However, it is unclear how a judge would see this. They promised to contact the swedish consumer centre for advise. They have referred me to the EEN (see below) for advise as a business.

Enterprise Europe Network
I have contacted the EEN in the UK and asked about consumer vs. business, false advertising and fire hazard. They were very polite and helpful on the phone and promised to look into these matters after an email with all details.

The Swedish Bar Association
I have been looking for a lawyer here. I have contacted several lawyers, but have not got a reply back yet. One commercial lawyer replied, but I believe following the "consumer" route is more promising at this point. He also wanted a substantial retainer payment right away.
Do you know a good swedish lawyer?

*The National Board for Consumer Disputes
"Our main task is to impartially try disputes between consumers and business operators. [...] The Board's recommendations are not binding, but the majority of companies follow them. [...] It usually takes about six months from the claim to a decision"
NOTE: They do NOT provide advice for individual cases.
TODO: contact them to start the process.

*ANEC - Consumer Voice in Standardisaton
I reported the safety issues to them. They were interested on the phone and I have submitted a detailed letter to them explaining the fire hazard. I'd expect that they refer me to yet another organisation. Let's see.
If you have personal experience with the fire hazard or have information to add to my write up below, please contact me or the ANEC!


Further action
Contacting their VC investors may be interesting.
Which authorities in Sweden investigate fraud?

*Direct Selling Association UK
Only handles disputes between consumers and their members. KnCMiner is obviously not a member.

*Other Ideas
Consumer Portal of the EC - there's lots to read and more information.
European e-Justice portal - gives information for mediation services. May be interesting, I need to follow up on that.
Citizens Advice Bureau UK are usually only dealing with consumer issues within the UK. However, they may be able to advise whether bitcoin mining is a business activity in the UK. If I'm not a business, then the local legal system may be relevant and I can get a claim in a UK court.


Points where KnC may break the law

1) KnCMiner sells potentially dangerous products.
1.1) Fire hazard
KnCMiner's Neptune draws 300-400W per cube through 1xPCI-e 8pin connector, which is spec'ed at 150W Wiki. This poses a fire hazard and there are reports of melting cables and fires operating the KnCMiner Neptune [1]
TODO: What are the relevant authorities, if at all?
1.2) KnCMiner does not CE (or FCC) certify its products
Background and authorities: CE advisor, EU, Consumer Lobby].
It is unclear whether the CE marking is required for KnC, as their products operate at 12V DC and do not come with a PSU. The regulations on Low Voltage Electrical Equipment apply only to devices operating at 75V-1500V. KnC apparently doesn't ship a PSU to avoid the CE marking. The regulators may see this differently, as it is a deliberate attempt to side step regulation and as there is a high risk of fire.
TODO: contact authorities (e.g. Consumer Lobby) and find out whether there is a breach of regulations.

2) KnCMiner sells to consumers but avoids consumer rights
2.1) I have paid VAT. I did not and do not run a business. My contract of employment does not allow me to run a business.
2.3) KnCMiner has made no effort to require business information and to sell to businesses only.
2.4) KnCMiner's business depends on selling a (large? how large?) percentage to consumers.
2.5) KnCMiner did not advertise on the order page that it is a "business only" sale. I did not expect to waive all my rights as a consumer and the protection I get as a layman in court. Apparently I am now expected to deal with the full complexity of contract law as a layman.
2.6) In conclusion, KnC's T&C state "for business use only" so that they can avoid consumer rights.

This document has more details on the definition of a consumer (ty mwizard). The uncertainty remains, as bitcoin mining may be considered a "production" and hence a business activity. The most interesting bits:

Accordingly, a consumer is a natural person, who is acting outside the scope of an economic activity (trade, business, craft, liberal profession).
[...] some countries treat them (mixed transactions) as consumer contracts if the personal purpose prevails (Germany, Nordic countries)
In the UK, companies may rely on consumer protection against unfair terms if they purchase goods of a type they do not ordinarily deal with.

3) False advertising to increase sales
This could be a case of fraud and business misconduct, as KnCMiner made false representations to increase sales.
3.1) Delivery date
3.1.1) KnCMiner advertised on the order page that the Titan "will be shipping in Q2/Q3 of 2014" and "Shipment begins in Q2/Q3 of 2014". I consider the first statement to be binding.
3.1.2) A delivery date in Q2 2014 seems entirely impossible. The purpose was to increase sales. TODO: can an expert on ASIC development confirm the timeline for a 28nm device from RTL, tape-out to delivery?
3.1.3) The T&C 8.1 mention "The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on KnCMiner". This is markedly different to their advertising on the website.
3.2) Specifications
3.2.1) KnCMiner confirmed 300MH/s for around 800W of power.
3.2.2) KnCMiner's Titan uses 1100W according to their public news or 1160W according to their forum post, 37.5% - 45% more than was confirmed and advertised.

4) KnCMiner acts in full conflict to the interest of their customers
This point is somewhat speculative. This may again be a case of fraud and business misconduct at least according to UK legislation, as they have failed to disclose relevant information.
4.1) In principle, new mining devices are valuable because they are rare.
4.2) Selling Batch 2 shortly after Batch 1 for effectively 50% of the price is damaging the interests of their Batch 1 customers.
4.3) They did not disclose their intent for a Batch 2 at the time of Batch 1 pre-order, although it was material for the decision to order or not. Most customers would not have ordered if they had known the intent and pricing for Batch 2.

[1715654516]

1715654516

[Stratobitz]

Well written and detailed post. While I didn't buy any KNC products, I certainly feel for those who were affected by what happened.

I just thought I would throw out a few thoughts... More advice.

Everything you've listed above all sounds well and good "rationally", but the truth is a class action lawsuit, or even filing individual civil complaints would likely prove to be a waste of time.

I've had my fair share of legal battles running my business. I've been on both sides of the table, that having sued, or tried, and having been sued or tried.

First, you're dealing with a case that involves international laws.  The case would most likely have to be filed in Sweeden. I can't see any court in any other country having jurisdiction.

Second, a number of the items you listed, such as "dangerous product due to over wattage on cables"... You can't sue someone for selling a dangerous product.  You can only sue for actual damages and punitive damages.  Punitive wouldn't apply here, so unless the unit did overheat, causing a fire, which burned down your house, there's nothing to sue for.

Items 2,3,4 would be based around Fraud, which is extremely hard to prove. In order to win a fraud tort claim in most countries, you have to prove, yes prove, that their intention from the very beginning was to screw over their customers. I don't see how you would be able to do that. KNC would certainly claim that they had every good intention of following through, but had business problems, losses, etc.  Fraud must be intentional from the outset, as in a company set itself up with the sole purpose to defraud its customers. I don't see that as very likely, nor would it be even feasible to prove.

Lastly, no lawyer is going to touch this.  I imagine many people paid for their miner pre-orders with bitcoin. Well, that money is long gone. You can't bleed a stone, and I would expect the holdings of KNC are set up so that full liquidation to zero could happen overnight.

Any type of case against KNC would be unbelievably expensive. Think hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation costs... Which would take years, and in the end even if you did win, there is no guarantee you would be able to collect. They could be bankrupt by then.

My point is I would move on. I've been screwed over in business and I know how it feels. You want justice. Just don't waste too much time and energy on finding it because in the end you personally will likely be more prosperous simply letting it go and investing that time and energy into productive activities.

Lastly I would be careful making assertions like you have unless you are 100% positive that they are completely objective and accurate. You don't want to end up on the other side of a libel suit. And trust me, even if a company has no intention of following through with legal recourse, a civil complaint filed in court against you will make your life a nightmare... You cant ignore such things. Simply getting them to withdraw the complaint in exchange for an apology could prove very costly on your end.

Good luck, hopefully it will all work out.

Strato

[jomay]

Well written and detailed post. While I didn't buy any KNC products, I certainly feel for those who were affected by what happened.

I just thought I would throw out a few thoughts... More advice.

Everything you've listed above all sounds well and good "rationally", but the truth is a class action lawsuit, or even filing individual civil complaints would likely prove to be a waste of time.

I've had my fair share of legal battles running my business. I've been on both sides of the table, that having sued, or tried, and having been sued or tried.

First, you're dealing with a case that involves international laws.  The case would most likely have to be filed in Sweeden. I can't see any court in any other country having jurisdiction.

Second, a number of the items you listed, such as "dangerous product due to over wattage on cables"... You can't sue someone for selling a dangerous product.  You can only sue for actual damages and punitive damages.  Punitive wouldn't apply here, so unless the unit did overheat, causing a fire, which burned down your house, there's nothing to sue for.

Items 2,3,4 would be based around Fraud, which is extremely hard to prove. In order to win a fraud tort claim in most countries, you have to prove, yes prove, that their intention from the very beginning was to screw over their customers. I don't see how you would be able to do that. KNC would certainly claim that they had every good intention of following through, but had business problems, losses, etc.  Fraud must be intentional from the outset, as in a company set itself up with the sole purpose to defraud its customers. I don't see that as very likely, nor would it be even feasible to prove.

Lastly, no lawyer is going to touch this.  I imagine many people paid for their miner pre-orders with bitcoin. Well, that money is long gone. You can't bleed a stone, and I would expect the holdings of KNC are set up so that full liquidation to zero could happen overnight.

Any type of case against KNC would be unbelievably expensive. Think hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation costs... Which would take years, and in the end even if you did win, there is no guarantee you would be able to collect. They could be bankrupt by then.

My point is I would move on. I've been screwed over in business and I know how it feels. You want justice. Just don't waste too much time and energy on finding it because in the end you personally will likely be more prosperous simply letting it go and investing that time and energy into productive activities.

Lastly I would be careful making assertions like you have unless you are 100% positive that they are completely objective and accurate. You don't want to end up on the other side of a libel suit. And trust me, even if a company has no intention of following through with legal recourse, a civil complaint filed in court against you will make your life a nightmare... You cant ignore such things. Simply getting them to withdraw the complaint in exchange for an apology could prove very costly on your end.

Good luck, hopefully it will all work out.

Strato

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I'm looking to go to court in Sweden. Do you really think testing "am I consumer vs. business" is very expensive in a court? This is my main goal. The fact they are selling a dangerous product should add to the predicament classifying me as a business when I'm not.

Regarding the potential other points, false advertising, fraud, conflict of interest and selling dangerous products. I understand that all these points are pretty soft and difficult to argue or test in a court. Hence, my main goal is to get a criminal case started. That's why I'm looking for the relevant authorities. If I can present them with adequate information and make their life easy then there is a chance for them to go after this. I don't gain from this, but I'd be equally happy if injustice gets prosecuted. As you rightly said, I'm looking for justice.

Thanks for your point about a libel suit. I hope I am careful enough to express it is a speculation based on some facts. I'll change the wording slightly.

If "no lawyer is going to touch this" then I wonder what kind of legal system that is. I am already pretty surprised that I don't get any replies from the lawyers in Sweden that I have contacted.

[btc_uzr]

First, you're dealing with a case that involves international laws.  The case would most likely have to be filed in Sweeden. I can't see any court in any other country having jurisdiction.

No, it depends.
In case you are an EU resident this is just based on EU laws and a local lawyer is just fine.

Before actually going to court I'd file complaints everywhere.

btw, this one should not be missed:

What is ARN?

The National Board for Consumer Disputes (ARN) is a public authority that functions roughly like a court. Our main task is to impartially try disputes between consumers and business operators. Claims are filed by the consumer.

additionally this seems to be a good place to start as well
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/index_en.htm
it led me to these links

If you have a problem with a product or service you bought, you can settle your dispute with the trader without going to court. You have a number of options to do that. You can get help from the European Consumer Centres (ECC-net), which provide assistance when you have a problem with a trader in another country. You can also submit your complaint to an Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) body and have it dealt with in a low-cost, fast and easy way.  In this section you will find useful information on the ECC-net and on ADR.

and this one

A trend can be identified towards an increasing scaling up of mass claims. Expanding mass consumer markets with consumers shopping cross-border and on the internet create a high potential for large groups of consumers being harmed by the same or a similar illegal practice of a trader. The Commission is exploring ways to ensure that such consumer mass claims are solved. Collective redress could be a means to handle this type of claims.

[Stratobitz]

Well written and detailed post. While I didn't buy any KNC products, I certainly feel for those who were affected by what happened.

I just thought I would throw out a few thoughts... More advice.

Everything you've listed above all sounds well and good "rationally", but the truth is a class action lawsuit, or even filing individual civil complaints would likely prove to be a waste of time.

I've had my fair share of legal battles running my business. I've been on both sides of the table, that having sued, or tried, and having been sued or tried.

First, you're dealing with a case that involves international laws.  The case would most likely have to be filed in Sweeden. I can't see any court in any other country having jurisdiction.

Second, a number of the items you listed, such as "dangerous product due to over wattage on cables"... You can't sue someone for selling a dangerous product.  You can only sue for actual damages and punitive damages.  Punitive wouldn't apply here, so unless the unit did overheat, causing a fire, which burned down your house, there's nothing to sue for.

Items 2,3,4 would be based around Fraud, which is extremely hard to prove. In order to win a fraud tort claim in most countries, you have to prove, yes prove, that their intention from the very beginning was to screw over their customers. I don't see how you would be able to do that. KNC would certainly claim that they had every good intention of following through, but had business problems, losses, etc.  Fraud must be intentional from the outset, as in a company set itself up with the sole purpose to defraud its customers. I don't see that as very likely, nor would it be even feasible to prove.

Lastly, no lawyer is going to touch this.  I imagine many people paid for their miner pre-orders with bitcoin. Well, that money is long gone. You can't bleed a stone, and I would expect the holdings of KNC are set up so that full liquidation to zero could happen overnight.

Any type of case against KNC would be unbelievably expensive. Think hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation costs... Which would take years, and in the end even if you did win, there is no guarantee you would be able to collect. They could be bankrupt by then.

My point is I would move on. I've been screwed over in business and I know how it feels. You want justice. Just don't waste too much time and energy on finding it because in the end you personally will likely be more prosperous simply letting it go and investing that time and energy into productive activities.

Lastly I would be careful making assertions like you have unless you are 100% positive that they are completely objective and accurate. You don't want to end up on the other side of a libel suit. And trust me, even if a company has no intention of following through with legal recourse, a civil complaint filed in court against you will make your life a nightmare... You cant ignore such things. Simply getting them to withdraw the complaint in exchange for an apology could prove very costly on your end.

Good luck, hopefully it will all work out.

Strato

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I'm looking to go to court in Sweden. Do you really think testing "am I consumer vs. business" is very expensive in a court? This is my main goal. The fact they are selling a dangerous product should add to the predicament classifying me as a business when I'm not.

Regarding the potential other points, false advertising, fraud, conflict of interest and selling dangerous products. I understand that all these points are pretty soft and difficult to argue or test in a court. Hence, my main goal is to get a criminal case started. That's why I'm looking for the relevant authorities. If I can present them with adequate information and make their life easy then there is a chance for them to go after this. I don't gain from this, but I'd be equally happy if injustice gets prosecuted. As you rightly said, I'm looking for justice.

Thanks for your point about a libel suit. I hope I am careful enough to express it is a speculation based on some facts. I'll change the wording slightly.

If "no lawyer is going to touch this" then I wonder what kind of legal system that is. I am already pretty surprised that I don't get any replies from the lawyers in Sweden that I have contacted.

Well it's been my experience that lawyers are pretty much motivated by money. They don't care about your cause.  My primary legal is $400 USD / Hr.  At least here in the states to litigate you're looking at $50,000 just to get started. But that's litigation. Most cases settle before you go through all the motions, pre-trial discovery, witness interviews, filings, litigation, appeals, yada yada.

Lastly, lawyers don't care about criminal precedings unless they are getting paid to defend.

When deciding what road to take just know that as right as you may be you may never see a dime. They could win, and if they did you can bet the judge would award legal costs (their legal costs), which would be entered in as a judgement against you. Not so good.

As far as a class action, I'm not sure this is big enough, typically class actions involve tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars.

My advice... If you want to demand change, be a very squeaky wheel. There's all sorts of ways one can be incredibly annoying to a company without infringing rights.

Case in point:  When I bought my first condo, the refrigerator didn't have shelves in it. Annoying right? I called, I emailed, they said ok, but nothing.  So I took about 100 photos with my digital camera, of items that would go in the refrigerator. Just stuff I had, milk, eggs, so on. After complaining for 6 weeks and nothing, I faxed printed the photos on my laser printer, and faxed them twice a day the 100 page document with a cover sheet outlining my issue that the $2800 fridge that came with the unit had no shelves, and all of these items had no place to sit.

I think the development guy showed up after 3-4 days with the shelves and said stop faxing us.

[Stratobitz]

Well written and detailed post. While I didn't buy any KNC products, I certainly feel for those who were affected by what happened.

I just thought I would throw out a few thoughts... More advice.

Everything you've listed above all sounds well and good "rationally", but the truth is a class action lawsuit, or even filing individual civil complaints would likely prove to be a waste of time.

I've had my fair share of legal battles running my business. I've been on both sides of the table, that having sued, or tried, and having been sued or tried.

First, you're dealing with a case that involves international laws.  The case would most likely have to be filed in Sweeden. I can't see any court in any other country having jurisdiction.

Second, a number of the items you listed, such as "dangerous product due to over wattage on cables"... You can't sue someone for selling a dangerous product.  You can only sue for actual damages and punitive damages.  Punitive wouldn't apply here, so unless the unit did overheat, causing a fire, which burned down your house, there's nothing to sue for.

Items 2,3,4 would be based around Fraud, which is extremely hard to prove. In order to win a fraud tort claim in most countries, you have to prove, yes prove, that their intention from the very beginning was to screw over their customers. I don't see how you would be able to do that. KNC would certainly claim that they had every good intention of following through, but had business problems, losses, etc.  Fraud must be intentional from the outset, as in a company set itself up with the sole purpose to defraud its customers. I don't see that as very likely, nor would it be even feasible to prove.

Lastly, no lawyer is going to touch this.  I imagine many people paid for their miner pre-orders with bitcoin. Well, that money is long gone. You can't bleed a stone, and I would expect the holdings of KNC are set up so that full liquidation to zero could happen overnight.

Any type of case against KNC would be unbelievably expensive. Think hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation costs... Which would take years, and in the end even if you did win, there is no guarantee you would be able to collect. They could be bankrupt by then.

My point is I would move on. I've been screwed over in business and I know how it feels. You want justice. Just don't waste too much time and energy on finding it because in the end you personally will likely be more prosperous simply letting it go and investing that time and energy into productive activities.

Lastly I would be careful making assertions like you have unless you are 100% positive that they are completely objective and accurate. You don't want to end up on the other side of a libel suit. And trust me, even if a company has no intention of following through with legal recourse, a civil complaint filed in court against you will make your life a nightmare... You cant ignore such things. Simply getting them to withdraw the complaint in exchange for an apology could prove very costly on your end.

Good luck, hopefully it will all work out.

Strato

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I'm looking to go to court in Sweden. Do you really think testing "am I consumer vs. business" is very expensive in a court? This is my main goal. The fact they are selling a dangerous product should add to the predicament classifying me as a business when I'm not.

Regarding the potential other points, false advertising, fraud, conflict of interest and selling dangerous products. I understand that all these points are pretty soft and difficult to argue or test in a court. Hence, my main goal is to get a criminal case started. That's why I'm looking for the relevant authorities. If I can present them with adequate information and make their life easy then there is a chance for them to go after this. I don't gain from this, but I'd be equally happy if injustice gets prosecuted. As you rightly said, I'm looking for justice.

Thanks for your point about a libel suit. I hope I am careful enough to express it is a speculation based on some facts. I'll change the wording slightly.

If "no lawyer is going to touch this" then I wonder what kind of legal system that is. I am already pretty surprised that I don't get any replies from the lawyers in Sweden that I have contacted.

Also, you said you would be careful to speculate. Don't speculate. Don't. Provide solid facts.

[btc_uzr]

ARN seems to be helpful

I`m waiting for a refund for over 140 days
I had a real problem as my father needed a kidney transplant and asked for a refund on 30.04
Call them , explained them my problem , send them medical leather with the translation of my sister diagnostics and medical problem  (the whole family has health issue ) .
They did not refund me , is the same answer over and over again .
I`ve sent email requesting assistance to over 15 Swedish lawyer with no response .

This is the worst company I`ve ever encountered in EU.
I had enough .

Best
T
 
 

Hey, I just stopped back by on the KnC forum and saw that things have not got any better with the refunds.  This worked for me, but ymmv.  File a complaint form with ARN.  On their website, they have forms for english also.  Now I did receive email from them in swedish and had to translate it, but otherwise everything worked fine.  I just filled out the form, attached my invoice and copies of emails from KnC.  KnC waited until it was time for ARN to have a hearing and then refunded my money.  Good luck on your refund.

[btc_uzr]

I got my refund back today.. Actions taken: Hired a lawyer, sent a legal notice, Called a local police (Swedish) and launched a formal complaint (FIR- first investigation report), I wish I could have taken those steps 4 months ago to avoid begging for my money to be returned..

I don't have any good words for you KnC because I had a very bitter experience.. but at last, its time to say good bye to everyone here in forum..

I would be filing a defamation case for compensation of 300 thousands Euros. See you soon KnC..

[jomay]

I got my refund back today.. Actions taken: Hired a lawyer, sent a legal notice, Called a local police (Swedish) and launched a formal complaint (FIR- first investigation report), I wish I could have taken those steps 4 months ago to avoid begging for my money to be returned..

I don't have any good words for you KnC because I had a very bitter experience.. but at last, its time to say good bye to everyone here in forum..

I would be filing a defamation case for compensation of 300 thousands Euros. See you soon KnC..

Thanks for posting this. I'll need to update the OP when I get time. To my knowledge all the people that got a refund had ordered a Neptune and were most likely allowed refunds.
The route going through the police sounds interesting, but I don't feel confident enough to do it yet.

I've sent a letter to KnC citing swedish law (!) now, which gives you rights to cancel the contract NOT ONLY if you are a consumer, but also if you are a business and they do not fulfill their promises or what you can reasonably expect from them (this includes properties they did not promise in the contract, but that you would reasonably expect, e.g. fire safety). The important thing seems to act AS and WHEN you get aware of these facts and demand compensation from KnCMiner so that you reserve your right to cancel.

Last but not least, also called the German "Verbraucherschutz" seems more helpful, but not sure if they'd help me as I'm living in the UK. She said, she's heard about this case before, but doesn't know what the current state is. They had passed it on to lawyers that would look into it.

Finally and interestingly, the EU law is VERY clear IF you are considered a consumer: you can sue them locally in your country of residence (!!!). I think I even understand now how to enforce the title you get from your local court in Sweden.

Anyways, there hasn't been much interest on this thread here, so not sure I'll be updating it as frequently.

[BoscoMurray]

Anyways, there hasn't been much interest on this thread here, so not sure I'll be updating it as frequently.

Please update if/when you have news or info. I'm sure there are many interested parties, given the number of people who have signed the petition

[atp1916]

Perhaps KnC should cut their "bake-in" time down and actually ship out on time, eh?

[jomay]

Let's see...
I've posted a pretty clear letter last week by registered mail asking for a refund. I've also made it clear that any chance of a fire is simply NOT acceptable for the miner and that I demand a refund if the Titan was designed like the Neptune.

And what happened? KnC didn't ship on Thursday, stating "problems". I do wonder whether this is related. So I'm still hoping they won't be able to deliver till the 30.09.2014. At that point it should be possible (albeit not guaranteed) to sue for a refund.

[aspeer]

i've been struggling with them for a refund since june on my order as well, been hung up on multiple times, chewed out once, and told that they have no managers which i can speak with.  let me know what you're all doing because i'm tired of companies being able to jerk around customers. my entire refund request stemmed from my 2 neptunes catching fire as well.

[retro72]

Yeah, I'm done with KNC. I'm not letting their overpriced pieces of junk burn my house down. This post last night just validates my concerns http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/main-category/hardware/59510-knc-s-hot-products-fried-cable.

That happened even with the Y splitters KNC said would solve the problem. I have 3 Titans on order, 12 boxes that could happen to. They would have been running in and outbuilding close to my main house. If that happened to me I would not know until the building was in flames and it would probably take my house with it.

I've asked for a refund. I'm building a pretty damning case against them. If they care to look at my posts concerning Alpha Technology and on the Cointerra forum (before they shut it down) they'll  see I'm the kind of arsehole that just doesn't go away and I'll fight through every court in Sweden and the EU if I have too.

If/when my miners arrive I will refuse them. I have sent them an invoice for the money I'm owed. If this is not paid I will send in the Bailiffs, report them to the police and start court proceedings.

I'll keep you posted.

[retro72]

Jomay. That's a great list you've put together Thanks mate!!  I'd also add we should contact the local and National Swedish press. I will be contacting the Swedish consulate in Britain and the British Consulate in Sweden for advice and to report that KNC products are unsafe.

We should also submit a report online to the Swedish consumer agency, I know you said they were useless but if they get enough complaints they will probably look into it.
Report unfair terms here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/Oskaliga-avtalsvillkor/
Report dangerous products here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/Farlig-vara/

Interestingly the FTC stepped in to shut down BFL so our American cousins rightly believed BFL customers were consumers, not businesses. This should work in our favour. The HMRC brief regarding bitcoin also helps.

From the HMRC website: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/vat/brief0914.htm (worth a read)

"Chargeable gains: CT and CGT - if a profit or loss on a currency contract is not within trading profits or otherwise within the loan relationship rules, it would normally be taxable as a chargeable gain or allowable as a loss for CT or CGT purposes. Gains and losses incurred on Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies are chargeable or allowable for CGT if they accrue to an individual or, for CT on chargeable gains if they accrue to a company."

So if you mine and hold your coins you can sell them off once or twice in the tax year and only pay Capital Gains Tax as an individual. But if you mine and sell regularly for fiat income you would be considered a business and liable to Income Tax. Bitcoins/cryptos are not considered a currency by HMRC or any government on the planet. They are like shares, you only pay tax on them when you sell them for a gain. So owning and running a miner does not automatically make you a business, what you do with the mined coins is key.

The law is different in America though where stored coins are taxable.

[jomay]

Yeah, I'm done with KNC. I'm not letting their overpriced pieces of junk burn my house down. This post last night just validates my concerns http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/main-category/hardware/59510-knc-s-hot-products-fried-cable.

That happened even with the Y splitters KNC said would solve the problem. I have 3 Titans on order, 12 boxes that could happen to. They would have been running in and outbuilding close to my main house. If that happened to me I would not know until the building was in flames and it would probably take my house with it.

I've asked for a refund. I'm building a pretty damning case against them. If they care to look at my posts concerning Alpha Technology and on the Cointerra forum (before they shut it down) they'll  see I'm the kind of arsehole that just doesn't go away and I'll fight through every court in Sweden and the EU if I have too.

If/when my miners arrive I will refuse them. I have sent them an invoice for the money I'm owed. If this is not paid I will send in the Bailiffs, report them to the police and start court proceedings.

I'll keep you posted.

Hey retro, great to hear from you on here! You actually helped me to get a refund from Alpha Tech, so it's only fair if I helped you a bit with information on here! Oh, and I've also promised KnC to be a proper pain in the a..

It'd be great to collaborate on this case, join forces and share evidence. I've not updated this with all details regarding my actions, as I think KnC may benefit if they know what I am up to. I have also sent a letter requesting a cancellation and refund. I think that the clock now works for me at this point.

I'm continuously collecting snapshots and evidence on KnC's forums. TBH I don't understand why so many people still post on KnC's website given that they police the forum and delete posts.

Regarding the Y-cables, I don't think these were KnC's Y-cables, nor do I think anyone has received them yet. It is unlikely that the KnC provided cables are of better quality, though.

[mishax1]

Maybe we should merge those threads - Class action against kncminer.com

[jomay]

Maybe we should merge those threads - Class action against kncminer.com

Hi Mishax1,
I've initially created the other thread to gauge interest in a class action type lawsuit. This thread is simply to discuss which points are relevant for a potential lawsuit. I did not want this thread to be full of customers stating they are unhappy. Facts is what wins a lawsuit, I hope you understand.

I'm pretty underwhelmed at the level of interest these threads attracted so far.

[retro72]

Hey retro, great to hear from you on here! You actually helped me to get a refund from Alpha Tech, so it's only fair if I helped you a bit with information on here! Oh, and I've also promised KnC to be a proper pain in the a..

It'd be great to collaborate on this case, join forces and share evidence. I've not updated this with all details regarding my actions, as I think KnC may benefit if they know what I am up to. I have also sent a letter requesting a cancellation and refund. I think that the clock now works for me at this point.

I'm continuously collecting snapshots and evidence on KnC's forums. TBH I don't understand why so many people still post on KnC's website given that they police the forum and delete posts.

Regarding the Y-cables, I don't think these were KnC's Y-cables, nor do I think anyone has received them yet. It is unlikely that the KnC provided cables are of better quality, though.

Hey Jomay, glad I could help you with Alpha, If Swedish law is as robust as UK law we have a good chance of restitution from KNC. My strategy may be different from yours, but as I advised Alpha customers I don't think its wise to show your hand on an open forum. So like you I'm playing my cards close to my chest. I suggest we PM each other and compare notes. I'm putting everything I have in a PDF and writing up a narrative, once I have it all laid out I'll give you a shout and we'll take it from there.

Hopefully with all the Titan horror stories flying around this thread may pick up more traction and we can apply pressure as a group. In the words of Alpha Technology, I'll update you "soon®"

[varChar]

Im from Sweden and I talked with konsumenterket several months ago when I were in the same situation with the Neptune.
I ordered it earlie so I had the possibility to refund it. It were what they told me. And what they told me was as long as my status is 'paid' is it okey to refund. So when I wanted to refund they told me that it was to late. Because it had gone too long time. And the Neptune were in a state where it was impossibble/to late to refund.

Then I called 'konsumentverket'. Talked alot, to mutch to write here but in short I told them my story. And what they could guess without knowing was that I should have the law on my side, in other words the law with the possibility to refund and ship the product back to them if it is within 2 weeks after I received it.
Their homepage should really show that you buy as a company and not as a person. It should be really hard to miss that part, it isn't enough to add a paragraf in their terms and conditions.

So the first part should be to report it to konsumentverket.
The second part is to go to ARN (allmänna reklamationsverket), there will it be a process up to 6 months before they have the result. And that result is only a recommendation. With other words, KnC doesn't need to follow ARN's recommendation.
If they choose to not then it's part three, go to trial.
If the product have a value over X SEK (doesn't remember but I think X is around 25 000 sek - 30 000 sek (1$ = ~7 sek)) then you need to pay for the trial if you loose.

I choosed to not begin this process. I had in my mind to report them to konsumentverket, only for 'mark them', no company wants to be there.
But the time went on and I had to put my own time on other things, like try to sell it. And that is what I did, I got ~ +-0 so im 'happy'.

However as a Swede I could help you guys if you need. I could not lay all my time on it but there is maybe something that I can do for you.

[jomay]

My current thoughts revolve around the points below all of which don't require I am a consumer! Of course I would still argue that I am a consumer and provide evidence for it (tax returns, full-time employment contract).

However, I believe most points below are not clear cut. There's no guarantee a judge would rule in our favor, as KnC's T&C were written by weasels. Point 1. is excluded by their T&C, Point 2. has changed over time and may not be part of the contract, and point 3. is something a business may have to deal with to some degree.

1. Late Delivery
1.1 shipping may not have begun in Q2/Q3
Their order page said "will be shipping in Q2/Q3" and "shipping begins Q2/Q3". KnC ships now to fulfill this promise. However, the product they ship is unfinished and does not work as promised.According to their T&C "KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months from delivery [...]". I would argue KnC has not shipped the product yet and hence has not fulfilled their contract yet! See 2. for details.

1.2 Q2 was not achievable
KnC implicitly admits it themselves. It's great! KnC stated in their news that the Titan was "progressing as expected and we plan to ship in Q3" and "we see no delays in the production process so far" (June 30, 2014) and that they "see no delays in production so far and expect to start shipping well before the end of Q3" (July 28, 2014). The first time they have admitted to a possible delay was "fab yield is not as good as we hoped for" (September 11, 2014).

2. Below/Different Specification
"KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification [...]". To my understanding it implies that my miner should perform at 300MH/s and 800-1000W no matter when I have ordered. Is this a correct interpretation of "at all times" or do they mean "at the time the contract was concluded"? These specifications have been published in official news updates of KnC. KnC has also stated that of course all customers get the benefit of the performance increase.

2.1 power requirements are 1160W not 800W
2.2 Does not run on an 800-1000W PSU
It should be possible to get compensation for this. After all, we are considered businesses by KnC!
2.3 The Titan struggles to run at 300MH/s
According to customer experience the Titan requires constant reboots and does not achieve 300MH/s. This may be fixed with the  new firmware. It would be best if I had written evidence that the miner did not work as expected in Q2/Q3. Please contact me if you happen to have an early Titan that doesn't work as expected.
2.4 Changed casing from Jupiter form factor to Neptune
Probably not important enough to go for a refund. However, did the Jupiter suffer the fire hazard problem? If not then this may be relevant.


3. Electrical setup is complex
3.1 A Standard ATX PSU may not be sufficient
The PSU PCIe-connector required is a 45750 Mini-Fit® Plus HCS Crimp Terminal Crimped to 16 AWG wire.
I am not an electricial and I am not able to deal with this.

3.2 Not CE certified (etc.)
From their FAQ: "We want to ship as fast as possible. If we included a power supply, the certification process would be a longer and we'd have a lot of variations to design that would take precious time from your mining opportunity". This should have been made clear at the time of the order, not hidden in some FAQ.

3.3. Sold as a Developer Kit (not sure where it said this)
I'm NOT a developer even if I am a business. KnC has a duty to make this clear at the time of the order.



Legal rights
I've read up on the relevant Swedish Law as much as possible using google/bing translate.

1. Swedish distance selling regulations
Definitions:
'consumer' means any natural person who is acting primarily for purposes which are outside business activities,
"trader" means any natural or legal person who is acting for purposes relating to their economic activities.
4§ says that contract terms that are to the disadvantage of the consumer are void. This may apply to KnC's "business purposes" clause.
10§ gives you a right to cancel within 14 days of receiving the order.

2. Swedish consumer act
Gives you a right to get a refund before the order has been delivered/shipped.

3. Swedish Sale of Goods Act (contract law)
Lots of interesting clauses here as well.

[mishax1]

Fact: Batch 1 never stated to be a non-refundable product, nowhere. yet they claim it's non-refundable.

Fact: Their product page says Uses a standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX). Yet their actual/new specs recommendations say 2 x 750w or 2 x 850w power supplies.

[varChar]

Legal rights
I've read up on the relevant Swedish Law as much as possible using google/bing translate.

1. Swedish distance selling regulations
Definitions:
'consumer' means any natural person who is acting primarily for purposes which are outside business activities,
"trader" means any natural or legal person who is acting for purposes relating to their economic activities.
4§ says that contract terms that are to the disadvantage of the consumer are void. This may apply to KnC's "business purposes" clause.
10§ gives you a right to cancel within 14 days of receiving the order.

2. Swedish consumer act
Gives you a right to get a refund before the order has been delivered/shipped.

3. Swedish Sale of Goods Act (contract law)
Lots of interesting clauses here as well.

This law is appended if you buy as a person and not as a company. That's why KnC says that you are a company.
Everything you buy trough internet, over the phone or if a door knocker comes give you the law about 'distance buy'. Worth to mention is that this law does not apply if you buy anything that is custom made.

And YOU need to pay for the shipping back to the company you bought the product from. And as you said, this within 2 weeks after you received it!

[jomay]

Fact: Batch 1 never stated to be a non-refundable product, nowhere. yet they claim it's non-refundable.

Fact: Their product page says Uses a standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX). Yet their actual/new specs recommendations say 2 x 750w or 2 x 850w power supplies.

I don't think they need to state "non-refundable". That is implied by selling to business only. So you either argue that you are a consumer not a business, or you show that they have broken the contract to a degree that allows you to cancel as a business.

But that's only my opinion, and I'm not a lawyer.

[jomay]

Legal rights
I've read up on the relevant Swedish Law as much as possible using google/bing translate.

1. Swedish distance selling regulations
Definitions:
'consumer' means any natural person who is acting primarily for purposes which are outside business activities,
"trader" means any natural or legal person who is acting for purposes relating to their economic activities.
4§ says that contract terms that are to the disadvantage of the consumer are void. This may apply to KnC's "business purposes" clause.
10§ gives you a right to cancel within 14 days of receiving the order.

2. Swedish consumer act
Gives you a right to get a refund before the order has been delivered/shipped.

3. Swedish Sale of Goods Act (contract law)
Lots of interesting clauses here as well.

This law is appended if you buy as a person and not as a company. That's why KnC says that you are a company.
Everything you buy trough internet, over the phone or if a door knocker comes give you the law about 'distance buy'. Worth to mention is that this law does not apply if you buy anything that is custom made.

And YOU need to pay for the shipping back to the company you bought the product from. And as you said, this within 2 weeks after you received it!

Yes and no. Simply saying that I am a company does not make me a company. It is up to a judge and the law to decide whether I am a company or a consumer in that case.

The problem with all laws is to define when they are applicable. Hence the DSR's that I have cited above (as a crude google-translation) define first what is a consumer and what is a trader. So the question is really whether I am a consumer as defined by the DSR and have acted primarily for purposes outside business activities.

Is the google translation actually accurate?

I don't mind at all paying to ship it back. However, I believe KnC will reply that they do not accept it shipped back - at which point I believe that it is sufficient to keep it in custody until the matter is settled.

[vipgelsi]

Lets just merge these threads.

[varChar]

Legal rights
I've read up on the relevant Swedish Law as much as possible using google/bing translate.

1. Swedish distance selling regulations
Definitions:
'consumer' means any natural person who is acting primarily for purposes which are outside business activities,
"trader" means any natural or legal person who is acting for purposes relating to their economic activities.
4§ says that contract terms that are to the disadvantage of the consumer are void. This may apply to KnC's "business purposes" clause.
10§ gives you a right to cancel within 14 days of receiving the order.

2. Swedish consumer act
Gives you a right to get a refund before the order has been delivered/shipped.

3. Swedish Sale of Goods Act (contract law)
Lots of interesting clauses here as well.

This law is appended if you buy as a person and not as a company. That's why KnC says that you are a company.
Everything you buy trough internet, over the phone or if a door knocker comes give you the law about 'distance buy'. Worth to mention is that this law does not apply if you buy anything that is custom made.

And YOU need to pay for the shipping back to the company you bought the product from. And as you said, this within 2 weeks after you received it!

Yes and no. Simply saying that I am a company does not make me a company. It is up to a judge and the law to decide whether I am a company or a consumer in that case.

The problem with all laws is to define when they are applicable. Hence the DSR's that I have cited above (as a crude google-translation) define first what is a consumer and what is a trader. So the question is really whether I am a consumer as defined by the DSR and have acted primarily for purposes outside business activities.

Is the google translation actually accurate?

I don't mind at all paying to ship it back. However, I believe KnC will reply that they do not accept it shipped back - at which point I believe that it is sufficient to keep it in custody until the matter is settled.

I totally agree with you about saying that me or you are a company isn't enough! But that is what they leaning against.
And that is what I said in my post as well. I said that konsumentverket said to me that they don't belive that it is enough either. It should be really clear that you take the form as a company!

If you want I can call konsumentverket tomorrow and ask what "I" should do if the company doesn't want to accept the product that I want to ship them back.

[jomay]

I totally agree with you about saying that me or you are a company isn't enough! But that is what they leaning against.
And that is what I said in my post as well. I said that konsumentverket said to me that they don't belive that it is enough either. It should be really clear that you take the form as a company!

If you want I can call konsumentverket tomorrow and ask what "I" should do if the company doesn't want to accept the product that I want to ship them back.

Hi varChar,
it'd be fantastic if you can do that. To my knowledge KnC has previously said that any order that is rejected by the customer will be left for destruction by the shipping company. Could you ask konsumentverket what I should do?

Reject the shipment and risk destruction?
Accept and immediately send a letter, requesting a refund? If so, how do I deal with KnC not wanting the product back? Also, if the product is sitting at my place waiting for the return I probably cannot use it whilst I wait for the dispute to settle.

Do you happen to know a lawyer in Stockholm that could deal with such a case and doesn't charge more than a Titan costs?

[varChar]

I totally agree with you about saying that me or you are a company isn't enough! But that is what they leaning against.
And that is what I said in my post as well. I said that konsumentverket said to me that they don't belive that it is enough either. It should be really clear that you take the form as a company!

If you want I can call konsumentverket tomorrow and ask what "I" should do if the company doesn't want to accept the product that I want to ship them back.

Hi varChar,
it'd be fantastic if you can do that. To my knowledge KnC has previously said that any order that is rejected by the customer will be left for destruction by the shipping company. Could you ask konsumentverket what I should do?

Reject the shipment and risk destruction?
Accept and immediately send a letter, requesting a refund? If so, how do I deal with KnC not wanting the product back? Also, if the product is sitting at my place waiting for the return I probably cannot use it whilst I wait for the dispute to settle.

Do you happen to know a lawyer in Stockholm that could deal with such a case and doesn't charge more than a Titan costs?

I'll call them tomorrow. Never heard anything about the destruction. Do I understands you correct that they say that they will destory it?

No sorry I dont know anything about any lawers, I'll ask konsumentverket that as well. Perhaps they can help out, or maybe not. But I'll ask.

[jomay]

I totally agree with you about saying that me or you are a company isn't enough! But that is what they leaning against.
And that is what I said in my post as well. I said that konsumentverket said to me that they don't belive that it is enough either. It should be really clear that you take the form as a company!

If you want I can call konsumentverket tomorrow and ask what "I" should do if the company doesn't want to accept the product that I want to ship them back.

Hi varChar,
it'd be fantastic if you can do that. To my knowledge KnC has previously said that any order that is rejected by the customer will be left for destruction by the shipping company. Could you ask konsumentverket what I should do?

Reject the shipment and risk destruction?
Accept and immediately send a letter, requesting a refund? If so, how do I deal with KnC not wanting the product back? Also, if the product is sitting at my place waiting for the return I probably cannot use it whilst I wait for the dispute to settle.

Do you happen to know a lawyer in Stockholm that could deal with such a case and doesn't charge more than a Titan costs?

I'll call them tomorrow. Never heard anything about the destruction. Do I understands you correct that they say that they will destory it?

No sorry I dont know anything about any lawers, I'll ask konsumentverket that as well. Perhaps they can help out, or maybe not. But I'll ask.

I've only heard it once from a person on their forums. He wanted to not accept the delivery and KnC said any undelivered item would be left with the shipping company until you either pick it up or the shipping company destroys it.

It seems quite odd to me, but it does fit with their overall behavior.

Thank you very much for doing this! It's very helpful! I invite you for a few drinks or lunch if you ever come to London.

[retro72]

KNC take note http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/

“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch, and did so yet again to sell their cloud mining services. They should not get a fourth change (or a fifth chance, in the case of one of the defendants).”

It's interesting to note the FTC called BFL customers "consumers" this blows a hole in the you have to be a business to own miners argument. In the US at least. If the same is proven true in Europe KNC will probably be bankrupted by refunds. I'm going to use every waking minute to find out. The game's afoot.

[retro72]

I reported KNC for both of these
Unfair terms here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/Oskaliga-avtalsvillkor/
For failing to inform their customers the products were non refundable before purchase

Dangerous products here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/Farlig-vara/
400 watts a cube+ 1 PCI-e connector = FIRE. I uploaded a few pictures of burnt KNC connectors and cables

Here is the main page in case the links go bad http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagledning--kontakt/Gor-en-anmalan/Anmal-via-webben/

I'll be reporting KNC to ARN as well http://www.arn.se/ .
I've got A LOT of stuff against KNC to put together so it may take a couple of days, but the more people that do it the more they will take notice.

I would also report them here http://www.econsumer.gov/english/report/overview.shtm
Interestingly this site is run by the FTC in the U.S, but it deals with international complaints. Probably a good place to file one.

Don't forget to report them to the police http://polisen.se/Kontakta-oss/Polismyndigheter/Stockholms-lan/
and file an application for payment with the baliffs https://www.kronofogden.se/Ansokaombetalningsforelaggande.html

 I'll be doing that if my invoice isn't paid by its due day this week.

This is an interesting read about the debt recovery process in Sweden http://www.millerrosenfalck.com/2013/01/debt-collection-in-sweden/

edit: Thanks VarChar, changed the links

[varChar]

I reported KNC for both of these
Unfair terms here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagled...avtalsvillkor/
For failing to inform their customers the products were non refundable before purchase

Dangerous products here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Vagled...n/Farlig-vara/
400 watts a cube+ 1 PCI-e connector = FIRE. I uploaded a few pictures of burnt KNC connectors and cables

I'll be reporting KNC to ARN as well http://www.arn.se/ .
I've got A LOT of stuff against KNC to put together so it may take a couple of days, but the more people that do it the more they will take notice.

I would also report them here http://www.econsumer.gov/english/report/overview.shtm
I just found it and will do it tomorrow but I think the more agencies we can have looking into this "company" the better.

Don't forget to report them to the police http://polisen.se/Kontakta-oss/Polismyndigheter/Sodermanland/
and file an application for payment with the baliffs https://www.kronofogden.se/Ansokaombetalningsforelaggande.html

 I'll be doing that if my invoice isn't paid by its due day this week.

This is an interesting read http://www.millerrosenfalck.com/2013/01/debt-collection-in-sweden/

I noticed that some of your links didn't work out.
And you have the link to the police in 'Södermanland'. Don't think it metter that mutch but more correct should be to Stockholm: http://polisen.se/Kontakta-oss/Polismyndigheter/Stockholms-lan/

[retro72]

Well what a surprise.

You have been banned by Kurt.

The ban will be lifted on 30th October 2014.

KNC don't like the truth being posted on their site.

[retro72]

This is what the lovely Anna said to me today when I told her I would refuse KNC products at the door.

Anna (kncminer)
Sep 30 10:16

Hi,

In case of package refusal, it will be destroyed by UPS, as we do not accept returns.
At the same time, there will be no refund or any compensation given in case of such matter.


Best regards  |
Med vänlig hälsning

Anna Jagdhar

Kncminer
www.kncminer.com
Office: +46 8559 253 20

Pure threats and intimidation. More evidence against them.

[crawz83]

Well what a surprise.

You have been banned by Kurt.

The ban will be lifted on 30th October 2014.

KNC don't like the truth being posted on their site.

Use TOR to get around this.  Randomizes IP every time.

[retro72]

Use TOR to get around this.  Randomizes IP every time.

Oh I'm already back in brother

[crawz83]

Use TOR to get around this.  Randomizes IP every time.

Oh I'm already back in brother

Glad to hear bud, I've skirted the ban for some time now... somehow. 

[crawz83]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/raise-retainer-to-sue-knc-for-titan-refund/x/8768052

This is worth a shot, if anyone out there has excess money and wants to see KNC have a real lawsuit against them.
My lawyer decided that they'll want a retainer, but luckily they have experience in this sort of T&C matter which is why I still want to find a way to do this.
I'm reaching out to the community.

I won't be super let down if this doesn't happen, just worth a shot at something we all want to see. 
I would post regular updates and exact details of the progress.

 

[murraypaul]

KNC take note http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/

“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch, and did so yet again to sell their cloud mining services. They should not get a fourth change (or a fifth chance, in the case of one of the defendants).”

It's interesting to note the FTC called BFL customers "consumers" this blows a hole in the you have to be a business to own miners argument. In the US at least. If the same is proven true in Europe KNC will probably be bankrupted by refunds. I'm going to use every waking minute to find out. The game's afoot.

Who has said you need to be a business to own miners? That is a strawman argument.
The KNC terms and conditions includes a clear requirement that the purchaser agreed that they were purchasing as a business, not a consumer.
Did the BFL TnC include the same term? If not, what does one have to do with the other?

[varChar]

KNC take note http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/

“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch, and did so yet again to sell their cloud mining services. They should not get a fourth change (or a fifth chance, in the case of one of the defendants).”

It's interesting to note the FTC called BFL customers "consumers" this blows a hole in the you have to be a business to own miners argument. In the US at least. If the same is proven true in Europe KNC will probably be bankrupted by refunds. I'm going to use every waking minute to find out. The game's afoot.

Who has said you need to be a business to own miners? That is a strawman argument.
The KNC terms and conditions includes a clear requirement that the purchaser agreed that they were purchasing as a business, not a consumer.
Did the BFL TnC include the same term? If not, what does one have to do with the other?

Perhaps it's true that it were clear in the terms and condition. I can't tell.
But it is so far from enough! They need to do alot more then add it to their ToC. That's what 'konsumentverket' says about it.
But for the moment there isn't any report from them about it. It is only what they said.

[retro72]

Q1) Who has said you need to be a business to own miners? That is a strawman argument.
Q2)The KNC terms and conditions includes a clear requirement that the purchaser agreed that they were purchasing as a business, not a consumer.
Did the BFL TnC include the same term? If not, what does one have to do with the other?

A1) This an argument used by scam artists like Alpha Technology to try to skirt consumer laws

A2) Just because you put something in your T&Cs and people agree to it, that doesn't make it legal. If EU consumer law is the same as the US, then no matter what KNC say in their T&Cs, if you are a consumer not a bona fide business then you are covered by EU consumer law and KNC are in the shit. 

[jomay]

KNC take note http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/

“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch, and did so yet again to sell their cloud mining services. They should not get a fourth change (or a fifth chance, in the case of one of the defendants).”

It's interesting to note the FTC called BFL customers "consumers" this blows a hole in the you have to be a business to own miners argument. In the US at least. If the same is proven true in Europe KNC will probably be bankrupted by refunds. I'm going to use every waking minute to find out. The game's afoot.

Who has said you need to be a business to own miners? That is a strawman argument.
The KNC terms and conditions includes a clear requirement that the purchaser agreed that they were purchasing as a business, not a consumer.
Did the BFL TnC include the same term? If not, what does one have to do with the other?

It's entirely unrelated, as BFL is a US company dealing with US customers/consumers and the US does not have strong consumer protection. The term "all sales are final" for BFL's T&C may be regarded sufficient to reject refunds.

However, KnC operates in the EU and sold to EU customers. We have proper laws here and cowboys don't stand a chance in european courts. So we may be successful arguing that we are consumers not businesses.

I also think that KnC broke several contract terms even if we run a business.

[haha00]

I would be interested in legal action against KNC for my Titan miners. I would be will to split legal costs. If anyone wants to do this or is already doing this, please pm me.

[notsonerdy]

I cam across this site, seems that this is the TITAN page from March 28,2014
NOTE, there are not T&C listed at the bottom of the TITAN page for what it's worth.
http://web.archive.org/web/201403282...ining-hardware

The payment page doesn't say no refunds either:
http://web.archive.org/web/201403281.../pages/payment

To find the T&C back then, you had to scrub the site to find a Q&A about where to find the T&C, it's like they were hiding it, right?:
http://web.archive.org/web/201403310....com/pages/faq

Here's the T&C from 12/30/2014...looks like from the archive site the next change to the T&C was 8/18/14
http://web.archive.org/web/201312301...om/pages/TandC

pass it around

[retro72]

Titans are starting to burn up https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg9049634#msg9049634

This just gets better and better for KNC. They're practically making my case for me.

[retro72]

I cam across this site, seems that this is the TITAN page from March 28,2014
NOTE, there are not T&C listed at the bottom of the TITAN page for what it's worth.
http://web.archive.org/web/201403282...ining-hardware

The payment page doesn't say no refunds either:
http://web.archive.org/web/201403281.../pages/payment

To find the T&C back then, you had to scrub the site to find a Q&A about where to find the T&C, it's like they were hiding it, right?:
http://web.archive.org/web/201403310....com/pages/faq

Here's the T&C from 12/30/2014...looks like from the archive site the next change to the T&C was 8/18/14
http://web.archive.org/web/201312301...om/pages/TandC

pass it around

Yep, I've been building a case against KNC for a while and its pretty obvious they just made up "no refunds" clause one morning, after the first batch went on sale and are now trying to retroactively apply it to all previous purchases. I've got some pretty funny emails of KNC staff trying to wiggle out of telling me when this policy started. As they have always given refunds in the past. I've had four refunds with no problems.

It doesn't matter whether you're a business or consumer. If this wasn't made aware to their customers at the time of purchase they cannot enforce it and they'll be laughed out of court.

[BoscoMurray]

I cam across this site, seems that this is the TITAN page from March 28,2014
NOTE, there are not T&C listed at the bottom of the TITAN page for what it's worth.
http://web.archive.org/web/201403282...ining-hardware

The payment page doesn't say no refunds either:
http://web.archive.org/web/201403281.../pages/payment

To find the T&C back then, you had to scrub the site to find a Q&A about where to find the T&C, it's like they were hiding it, right?:
http://web.archive.org/web/201403310....com/pages/faq

Here's the T&C from 12/30/2014...looks like from the archive site the next change to the T&C was 8/18/14
http://web.archive.org/web/201312301...om/pages/TandC

pass it around

Links not working. Could you please fix. I'm especially interested in the payment page link. Thanks

[jomay]

This is an interesting read about the debt recovery process in Sweden http://www.millerrosenfalck.com/2013/01/debt-collection-in-sweden/

Hi Retro,

So if I understand correctly, this is the process:
1) Reminder Letter with short deadline for payment
2) 7-10 days after deadline, sent reminder letter
3) 13 days after reminder letter => ready for action

I had thought a single letter requesting payment with an appropriate deadline is sufficient. Oh well, I'll write a reminder to KnC.
Have you send both already?

[retro72]

This is an interesting read about the debt recovery process in Sweden http://www.millerrosenfalck.com/2013/01/debt-collection-in-sweden/

Hi Retro,

So if I understand correctly, this is the process:
1) Reminder Letter with short deadline for payment
2) 7-10 days after deadline, sent reminder letter
3) 13 days after reminder letter => ready for action

I had thought a single letter requesting payment with an appropriate deadline is sufficient. Oh well, I'll write a reminder to KnC.
Have you send both already?

Yes that's it.
1) invoice with a due date.
2) If due date lapses. The day after send a reminder, with a short deadline
3)7-10 days after the new deadline lapses send a Letter Before Action.
4)If the debt is not settled within 12 days of the Letter Before Action, contact the Swedish Enforcement Authority (https://www.kronofogden.se/).
5) If they still refuse they will be summoned to court for a judgement

The invoice due date passed yesterday for me. I've been busy today so I'm sending a reminder letter on Monday. I'll probably contact the police as well. You can skip steps 2-4 and apply for a court summons immediately. Depending on KNCs response to the reminder and my schedule I might just hire a lawyer and have at it.

Interestingly from what I've read you can settle multiple claims at one hearing, a sort of mini class action so cost can be shared by several parties. Obviously all costs are recovered if you win the case.  I'll probably shoot a few emails to law firms on Monday to get a better view of the options.

[proudpak]

Hi,

I am also looking for legal advise, action against KnC for my Titan. I know there are lawyers who are asking for retainer money, which does not give any security or guarantee or my money to be returned. I am all open to sign up an agreement to pay 15% of refund money against lawyers  fee, expenses. I believe this is fair and if more people join in to file up a joint case for refund they will be making more money out from it. Since KnC is Swedish company, a lawyer from there would be better option.

PM me if anyone has information or working with lawyers for a refund.


Thanks

[jomay]

This is an interesting read about the debt recovery process in Sweden http://www.millerrosenfalck.com/2013/01/debt-collection-in-sweden/

Hi Retro,

So if I understand correctly, this is the process:
1) Reminder Letter with short deadline for payment
2) 7-10 days after deadline, sent reminder letter
3) 13 days after reminder letter => ready for action

I had thought a single letter requesting payment with an appropriate deadline is sufficient. Oh well, I'll write a reminder to KnC.
Have you send both already?

Yes that's it.
1) invoice with a due date.
2) If due date lapses. The day after send a reminder, with a short deadline
3)7-10 days after the new deadline lapses send a Letter Before Action.
4)If the debt is not settled within 12 days of the Letter Before Action, contact the Swedish Enforcement Authority (https://www.kronofogden.se/).
5) If they still refuse they will be summoned to court for a judgement

The invoice due date passed yesterday for me. I've been busy today so I'm sending a reminder letter on Monday. I'll probably contact the police as well. You can skip steps 2-4 and apply for a court summons immediately. Depending on KNCs response to the reminder and my schedule I might just hire a lawyer and have at it.

Interestingly from what I've read you can settle multiple claims at one hearing, a sort of mini class action so cost can be shared by several parties. Obviously all costs are recovered if you win the case.  I'll probably shoot a few emails to law firms on Monday to get a better view of the options.

Yeah, I've sent off the final reminder on Friday. As I am off for vacation in a week I cannot even take the delivery anyways. So if KnC still leaves the delivery to be destroyed if I don't take delivery it is certainly not my fault (besides, I think this is another threat of KnC to make customers obey).

Regarding lawyer, haha00 has looked one up. Not sure if it is the best/cheapest choice. However, I think we should all coordinate this effort. The more people are in to one lawsuit, the cheaper/better.

As I have written in the other thread, Sweden is the poster child of the EU regarding class action, as they already have procedures in place for it.

Interestingly the ECCS has also replied to my complaint and has referred me to ARN. It's about what I was expected. However, I don't really want to wait as long as the ARN procedure may take.

[digicoin]

I am unhappy with KncMiner's Titan

[retro72]

I'm putting together a comprehensive dossier for ARN and the other relevant authorities and news media. Its already at 20 pages and I'm only about half way through. I'll let you know when its finished. As I'm putting this thing together and all the pieces are falling into place, I really can't see how KNC will can justify their position in court. The evidence is pretty damning.

They knowing sold to individuals without informing them these were B2B purchases in order to restrict them of their statutory rights. This was stated nowhere on their site, the only line to state their products were B2B was in the T&Cs which were hidden on the FAQ page without even a direct link.

They then removed the right to refund AFTER many of these consumers had purchased their products, while at the time stating their other products were refundable. The fact that the Titan was non refundable was NOT made clear to customers at the time no matter what Kurt says. This can be easily proved by email conversations I had with KNC the day the Titans went on sale and by looking at the press releases and the product pages.

And to top it off the Titans are not as described, are a potential fire hazard and do not even work. This a failure of epic proportions and the fact KNC are trying to cram this POS product down their customers throats, without any attempt at a resolution or compensation just shows how arrogant and greedy they have become.

You should all write to your local, national and Swedish media outlets. KNC are still seeking investment and with the bitcoin price in free-fall the last thing they need is a ton of bad press.

[retro72]

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/knc-titans-missed-quarter-3-deadline-refunds/

Might be worth contacting this guy. http://www.nova.se/en/employees/magnus-daar-2/
The article says he's looking at taking on KNC. I'm going to drop him a line and see what he says.

[BoscoMurray]

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/knc-titans-missed-quarter-3-deadline-refunds/

Might be worth contacting this guy. http://www.nova.se/en/employees/magnus-daar-2/
The article says he's looking at taking on KNC. I'm going to drop him a line and see what he says.

I have been in touch with Magnus Daar and can confirm he is looking to put a case together against KnC. He is also looking at having many clients, so splitting costs among the group will save a LOT on lawyer fees (although you'd get these back if you win).

I'd urge anyone looking for a refund to get in touch with Magnus Daar.

[mishax1]

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/knc-titans-missed-quarter-3-deadline-refunds/

Might be worth contacting this guy. http://www.nova.se/en/employees/magnus-daar-2/
The article says he's looking at taking on KNC. I'm going to drop him a line and see what he says.

I have been in touch with Magnus Daar and can confirm he is looking to put a case together against KnC. He is also looking at having many clients, so splitting costs among the group will save a LOT on lawyer fees (although you'd get these back if you win).

I'd urge anyone looking for a refund to get in touch with Magnus Daar.

Are you Swedish ?

Most of the customers are not from Sweden so it will not be that easy to "sign a deal" for a legal representation and paying for it upfront.

I do want to participate and am willing to pay for it, but it's not easy as sending bitcoins and all done.

If some of the issues and concerns could be explained that would be great.

Otherwise, receiving emails from a few random titan buyers won't do the trick.

Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."

Where to start?

[damiano]

http://newsbtc.com/2014/10/13/california-attorney-targets-kncminer-potential-class-action-lawsuit/

http://kncclassaction.com/

[BoscoMurray]

Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."

Where to start?

I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:

"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."

"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."

[murraypaul]

Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."

Where to start?

I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:

"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."

"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."

Have you told them about the part of the T&C where you agreed that we weren't purchasing as a consumer?

[retro72]

Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."

Where to start?

I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first.

Check your Home Insurance policy. If you have LEI (Legal Expenses Insurance) you may be covered for this.

Home insurance LEI typically covers legal proceedings relating to the insured’s home, employment, death or personal injury, as well as cases where you have entered into a contract for the sale and supply of goods and services.

Definitely worth a shot.

[BoscoMurray]

Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."

Where to start?

I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:

"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."

"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."

Have you told them about the part of the T&C where you agreed that we weren't purchasing as a consumer?

This is exactly the question I asked in my reply, but have not yet had an answer. I suspect that this is an unfair condition to have in the T&C, since it is mentioned nowhere else on KnCMiner's website and is not made clear at any point during the purchase.

The "consumers right to cancel" is not the point I am pushing in my request for a refund. Whether a consumer or a business, KnC have not delivered on their contractual obligations and falsely advertised the product. In my opinion they will need to refund customers.

[notsonerdy]

For those that want the links to the archived web pages, not sure why the links died, but you can go to the website:
http://archive.org/web/

From there you can use these "Current" KNC page links, cut and paste a website URL into the "browse history box", and see the dates on the calendar you are looking for of the "OLD" links. Good Luck, please keep me posted if you get a strrong push against KNC, from what I am reading they only shipped a few hundred to date, this is insane.

https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc
https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/payment
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/faq

[murraypaul]

Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."

Where to start?

I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:

"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."

"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."

Have you told them about the part of the T&C where you agreed that we weren't purchasing as a consumer?

This is exactly the question I asked in my reply, but have not yet had an answer. I suspect that this is an unfair condition to have in the T&C, since it is mentioned nowhere else on KnCMiner's website and is not made clear at any point during the purchase.

Titan first batch ordering page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140328222749/https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware

Titan is our first scrypt mining product and will be shipping in Q2/Q3 of 2014.
The stats and performance that we can release today are
Minimum 250/MH/s of performance
Uses a Standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX)
Based on the existing Jupiter form factor but will have blades of cards inside
Shipment begins in Q2/Q3 of 2014
Payment for this product is bitcoins and bank transfer only (we will add litecoin as a payment method in the near future)
as this is KnCMiner we of course reserve the right to increase the performance at any time,
Note** this is a preorder all customers are reminded to please read the terms and conditions carefully before ordering.

Titan second batch ordering page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140701181846/https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware

The stats and performance that we can release today are
Minimum 400/MH/s of performance from a 28nm chip
Uses a Standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX)
Based on the existing Jupiter form factor
Shipment begins one month after Batch 1
Payment for this product is bitcoins, Litcoins and bank transfer only
as this is KnCMiner we of course reserve the right to increase the performance at any time,
Note** this is a preorder all customers are reminded to please read the terms and conditions carefully before ordering.
This product is nonrefundable

[mishax1]

Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."

Where to start?

I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:

"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."

"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."

Have you told them about the part of the T&C where you agreed that we weren't purchasing as a consumer?

This is exactly the question I asked in my reply, but have not yet had an answer. I suspect that this is an unfair condition to have in the T&C, since it is mentioned nowhere else on KnCMiner's website and is not made clear at any point during the purchase.

The "consumers right to cancel" is not the point I am pushing in my request for a refund. Whether a consumer or a business, KnC have not delivered on their contractual obligations and falsely advertised the product. In my opinion they will need to refund customers.

I would love to see them try and prove that at least 50% of their customers are business clients and not "private customers".. 

[murraypaul]

Maybe if we had some clear info of what Magnus needs and what needs to be done we could move on and get everything together, and not just starting emailing him with "Hi, I heard you wanna sue KNC.."

Where to start?

I am from the UK. I actually think it is best that each person emails Magnus directly since he won't act for anyone without some kind of payment, and this must be arranged first. In his reply to me today he said:

"If you purchased the product as a consumer, you have the right to cancel the purchase according to Swedish law. If you are a private consumer the seller can’t deny you this right legally. We can assist you in writing to the company with a legal claim, explaining to them on what grounds they have to refund you. If they haven’t done that in a week I would like to inform them that I have been instructed by you to sue them in court to retrieve the money."

"However, there seem to be a number of disappointed customers who have requested our assistance which will drive down the legal costs..... I can keep you updated on how the costs develop along the way. I will also keep you posted if there is an opportunity for a group law suit, when I have communicated with all the disappointed KnC-customers, that have e-mailed me over the last few days."

Have you told them about the part of the T&C where you agreed that we weren't purchasing as a consumer?

This is exactly the question I asked in my reply, but have not yet had an answer. I suspect that this is an unfair condition to have in the T&C, since it is mentioned nowhere else on KnCMiner's website and is not made clear at any point during the purchase.

The "consumers right to cancel" is not the point I am pushing in my request for a refund. Whether a consumer or a business, KnC have not delivered on their contractual obligations and falsely advertised the product. In my opinion they will need to refund customers.

I would love to see them try and prove that at least 50% of their customers are business clients and not "private customers"..  

Can you prove that they aren't?
They are selling industrial machines designed to make money.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
Each purchaser has agreed that they are purchasing as a business.
You would need to prove that those agreements were shams, or should be set aside for some other reason.

[retro72]

Titan first batch ordering page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140328222749/https://www.kncminer.com/categories/litecoin-mining-hardware

Titan is our first scrypt mining product and will be shipping in Q2/Q3 of 2014.
The stats and performance that we can release today are
Minimum 250/MH/s of performance
Uses a Standard ATX power supply (customer supplied ATX)
Based on the existing Jupiter form factor but will have blades of cards inside
Shipment begins in Q2/Q3 of 2014
Payment for this product is bitcoins and bank transfer only (we will add litecoin as a payment method in the near future)
as this is KnCMiner we of course reserve the right to increase the performance at any time,
Note** this is a preorder all customers are reminded to please read the terms and conditions carefully before ordering.

What are you saying here? That we should have read the small print?

Hiding one line in their T&Cs about being a B2B company. Yet actively seeking out individual consumers on internet forums, never mentioning anything like this in their advertising, emails, or newsletters and not stating this anywhere else on their website. Seems pretty shady to me. I wonder how a judge would see it?

Try to  find the T&Cs on that webpage, in fact go through the whole website? Nicely hidden away aren't they? Not even one link. Funny how when you email KNC about buying their products, they tell you how to pay, they tell you they won't hold your place in the queue and that their products are running out fast,  but they conveniently forget to mention you have to be a business to buy them or their products are non refundable

I don't think it matters what KNC have/had or will put in their T&Cs, they are a dishonest bunch of crooks. Do you really think they'd be handing out refunds and shipping devices that actually worked if that line wasn't there?
Ask Neptune customers how their refunds or bonus Neptunes are working out?

[retro72]

Can you prove that they aren't?
They are selling industrial machines designed to make money.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
Each purchaser has agreed that they are purchasing as a business.
You would need to prove that those agreements were shams, or should be set aside for some other reason.

Well the FTC took a different view, so we'll go with that shall we?

http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/

“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch.”

Note the word consumers. It seems mining crypto doesn't automatically make you a business, so if all KNC are hanging their hat on is that line hidden away in their T&Cs, then they had better strap in and prepare for a rough ride.

[murraypaul]

What are you saying here? That we should have read the small print?

Yes.
You were spending thousands of dollars for a product that didn't exist at the time you ordered it.
Pretty obviously it is going to be important for you to know what happens if something goes wrong.
Read what you are agreeing to.

I don't think it matters what KNC have/had or will put in their T&Cs, they are a dishonest bunch of crooks. Do you really think they'd be handing out refunds and shipping devices that actually worked if that line wasn't there?

I'm not defending them. I think their business practices are pretty unpleasant.
I'm just saying that they successfully got you to agree to opt-out of consumer protection.
That is a benefit for them, and a loss for you.
(And I said it back in August 2013 when the Bitcoinarama shill was trying to convince people that this didn't matter, so this isn't a case of 20-20 hindsight.)

It may well be that if you took this to court, you would be able to convince a judge that this clause shouldn't apply to you, and that you should be considered a consumer.
However, you would have to actually go to court to prove this, which is a time and expense that they know most people won't be bothered to take.
You would also have to either sue them in Sweden (more time and expense), or first convince a judge to allow you to sue them locally (more time and expense).

I'm not saying they haven't screwed you, I'm saying they have successfully screwed you.

[murraypaul]

Can you prove that they aren't?
They are selling industrial machines designed to make money.
They provide no utility other than making money.
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.
Each purchaser has agreed that they are purchasing as a business.
You would need to prove that those agreements were shams, or should be set aside for some other reason.

Well the FTC took a different view, so we'll go with that shall we?

http://www.coindesk.com/ftc-butterfly-labs-held-back-shipments-illicit-mining/

“[Butterfly Labs] misrepresented the delivery and profitability of the BitForce machine, and then made the same misrepresentations to induce consumers to purchase the Monarch.”

Note the word consumers. It seems mining crypto doesn't automatically make you a business, so if all KNC are hanging their hat on is that line hidden away in their T&Cs, then they had better strap in and prepare for a rough ride.

Did the BFL terms and conditions contain a term that they were sold on a B2B basis?
If not, that has nothing to do with the KNC position.

[retro72]

Did the BFL terms and conditions contain a term that they were sold on a B2B basis?
If not, that has nothing to do with the KNC position.

It has everything to do with what you wrote.

They are selling industrial machines designed to make money. 
They provide no utility other than making money.                   
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.   

You seem to be assuming that owning a bitcoin miner makes you a business. The FTC doesn't see it that way. KNCs only argument is the line in their T&Cs. Which actually says:

1.2   The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

Is that enough to make an individual consumer a business? Even if that consumer has stated to KNC they are NOT a business, yet KNC refuses to void their order and continues processing it? Breaching their own T&Cs.

If they were truly a B2B company, surely they would void the orders of anyone who told them they were not a business and refund them. There are plenty of legitimate B2B sites where this is the case, in fact they make it almost impossible to purchase if you are not a legitimate, bona fide business and will terminate your order immediately if they find out you are not.

I have emails with KNC where I asked about buying their products and at no time time did they inform me it was a B2B transaction. I have emails where I told KNC I am not a business and they pretty much told me they don't care I was getting the product anyway. Does that sound like a legitimate B2B company to you?

Nowhere else is it mentioned on their website, advertising or newsletters. It is buried on one unlinked page in their T&Cs.

This will probably have to be tested in court. But I have a feeling a reasonable judge will see this for what it really is, a crude attempt to rob customers of their consumer rights. Once that happens KNC are finished.

[murraypaul]

Did the BFL terms and conditions contain a term that they were sold on a B2B basis?
If not, that has nothing to do with the KNC position.

It has everything to do with what you wrote.

They are selling industrial machines designed to make money.  
They provide no utility other than making money.                    
For some of the machines, they can't easily be run in a normal US house without wiring modifications.  

You seem to be assuming that owning a bitcoin miner makes you a business.

No, I'm saying that on top of you agreeing that you bought as a business, there are a number of issues (such as above), which KNC would point out to show that it was reasonable for them to believe that you were in fact buying for commercial reasons. This isn't like the German car sales example.

This will probably have to be tested in court. But I have a feeling a reasonable judge will see this for what it really is, a crude attempt to rob customers of their consumer rights. Once that happens KNC are finished.

As I've said, it may well be that you would win on this point in court.
But you have to actually get to court first, and while threatening legal action is a favourite internet pastime, hardly anyone actually follows through on it, and KNC probably took that into account.
And if anyone does actually go through the process of starting Swedish proceedings, and looking like they might actually follow through, KNC can simply come to an agreement to refund that person, without it creating any sort of precedent for others.
To really 'win' requires someone to be prepared to spend more on legal costs than they would receive in refunds, because they want to make a principled point / and or because they want to 'get' KNC. (I don't know about the Swedish system, but in the UK, if they have turned down a reasonable refund offer to do this, they may not be able to recover their costs.)
Any volunteers?

They've taken your money and delivered a late, poor quality product.
Is that something to be applauded? No.
Are they probably going to get away with it? Yes.
Is that in large part because purchasers voluntarily signed away their consumer rights? Yes.

[retro72]

As I've said, it may well be that you would win on this point in court.
But you have to actually get to court first, and while threatening legal action is a favourite internet pastime, hardly anyone actually follows through on it, and KNC probably took that into account.
And if anyone does actually go through the process of starting Swedish proceedings, and looking like they might actually follow through, KNC can simply come to an agreement to refund that person, without it creating any sort of precedent for others.

They've taken your money and delivered a late, poor quality product.
Is that something to be applauded? No.
Are they probably going to get away with it? Yes.
Is that in large part because purchasers voluntarily signed away their consumer rights? Yes.

I pretty much agree. Luckily I have home insurance that covers legal disputes over good and services for up to £50,000. So I'm going to call my insurer tomorrow.

I think you're absolutely right. KNC will not want to set a legal precedent and will probably be advised to settle. But as you say most people on the forums are just blowing hot air and will never get anywhere near litigation, KNC are counting on that. But I'm not most people.

[unitedminers]

Updates marked as orange.

This thread collects information on relevant authorities and their replies about KnCMiner's business practices. I will do my best to update this post as we get more responses from the authorities. The idea is to avoid double work for the agencies/authorities and us.

There is an option to organize a class action suit. See my other thread if you are interested.


Contacted authorities and websites

Change.org petition
Please participate, it can only help! It has now been passed on to the swedish consumer

Konsumentverket - swedish consumer agency
They had no interest dealing with me and were extremely unhelpful. They only help swedish residents.
If you are a swedish resident, can you please contact them?
You can find your local bureau here.

*Swedish legal aid
If I understand correctly you can still apply for it as a foreigner! Please read the page whether you fulfill certain requirements, particularly if your financial base is less than ~36000$ per year.

*Your Europe - National Contacts
A great resource to find centres for consumer advice (ECC-Net), ombudsman and alternative dispute resolution mechanisms for your EU country of residence.

European Consumer Centre Network (ECC)
I have contacted the ECC for the UK, and for Services. They said that bitcoin mining may be classed as a business activity and I may be considered a business. However, it is unclear how a judge would see this. They promised to contact the swedish consumer centre for advise. They have referred me to the EEN (see below) for advise as a business.

Enterprise Europe Network
I have contacted the EEN in the UK and asked about consumer vs. business, false advertising and fire hazard. They were very polite and helpful on the phone and promised to look into these matters after an email with all details.

The Swedish Bar Association
I have been looking for a lawyer here. I have contacted several lawyers, but have not got a reply back yet. One commercial lawyer replied, but I believe following the "consumer" route is more promising at this point. He also wanted a substantial retainer payment right away.
Do you know a good swedish lawyer?

*The National Board for Consumer Disputes
"Our main task is to impartially try disputes between consumers and business operators. [...] The Board's recommendations are not binding, but the majority of companies follow them. [...] It usually takes about six months from the claim to a decision"
NOTE: They do NOT provide advice for individual cases.
TODO: contact them to start the process.

*ANEC - Consumer Voice in Standardisaton
I reported the safety issues to them. They were interested on the phone and I have submitted a detailed letter to them explaining the fire hazard. I'd expect that they refer me to yet another organisation. Let's see.
If you have personal experience with the fire hazard or have information to add to my write up below, please contact me or the ANEC!


Further action
Contacting their VC investors may be interesting.
Which authorities in Sweden investigate fraud?

*Direct Selling Association UK
Only handles disputes between consumers and their members. KnCMiner is obviously not a member.

*Other Ideas
Consumer Portal of the EC - there's lots to read and more information.
European e-Justice portal - gives information for mediation services. May be interesting, I need to follow up on that.
Citizens Advice Bureau UK are usually only dealing with consumer issues within the UK. However, they may be able to advise whether bitcoin mining is a business activity in the UK. If I'm not a business, then the local legal system may be relevant and I can get a claim in a UK court.


Points where KnC may break the law

1) KnCMiner sells potentially dangerous products.
1.1) Fire hazard
KnCMiner's Neptune draws 300-400W per cube through 1xPCI-e 8pin connector, which is spec'ed at 150W Wiki. This poses a fire hazard and there are reports of melting cables and fires operating the KnCMiner Neptune [1]
TODO: What are the relevant authorities, if at all?
1.2) KnCMiner does not CE (or FCC) certify its products
Background and authorities: CE advisor, EU, Consumer Lobby].
It is unclear whether the CE marking is required for KnC, as their products operate at 12V DC and do not come with a PSU. The regulations on Low Voltage Electrical Equipment apply only to devices operating at 75V-1500V. KnC apparently doesn't ship a PSU to avoid the CE marking. The regulators may see this differently, as it is a deliberate attempt to side step regulation and as there is a high risk of fire.
TODO: contact authorities (e.g. Consumer Lobby) and find out whether there is a breach of regulations.

2) KnCMiner sells to consumers but avoids consumer rights
2.1) I have paid VAT. I did not and do not run a business. My contract of employment does not allow me to run a business.
2.3) KnCMiner has made no effort to require business information and to sell to businesses only.
2.4) KnCMiner's business depends on selling a (large? how large?) percentage to consumers.
2.5) KnCMiner did not advertise on the order page that it is a "business only" sale. I did not expect to waive all my rights as a consumer and the protection I get as a layman in court. Apparently I am now expected to deal with the full complexity of contract law as a layman.
2.6) In conclusion, KnC's T&C state "for business use only" so that they can avoid consumer rights.

This document has more details on the definition of a consumer (ty mwizard). The uncertainty remains, as bitcoin mining may be considered a "production" and hence a business activity. The most interesting bits:

Accordingly, a consumer is a natural person, who is acting outside the scope of an economic activity (trade, business, craft, liberal profession).
[...] some countries treat them (mixed transactions) as consumer contracts if the personal purpose prevails (Germany, Nordic countries)
In the UK, companies may rely on consumer protection against unfair terms if they purchase goods of a type they do not ordinarily deal with.

3) False advertising to increase sales
This could be a case of fraud and business misconduct, as KnCMiner made false representations to increase sales.
3.1) Delivery date
3.1.1) KnCMiner advertised on the order page that the Titan "will be shipping in Q2/Q3 of 2014" and "Shipment begins in Q2/Q3 of 2014". I consider the first statement to be binding.
3.1.2) A delivery date in Q2 2014 seems entirely impossible. The purpose was to increase sales. TODO: can an expert on ASIC development confirm the timeline for a 28nm device from RTL, tape-out to delivery?
3.1.3) The T&C 8.1 mention "The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on KnCMiner". This is markedly different to their advertising on the website.
3.2) Specifications
3.2.1) KnCMiner confirmed 300MH/s for around 800W of power.
3.2.2) KnCMiner's Titan uses 1100W according to their public news or 1160W according to their forum post, 37.5% - 45% more than was confirmed and advertised.

4) KnCMiner acts in full conflict to the interest of their customers
This point is somewhat speculative. This may again be a case of fraud and business misconduct at least according to UK legislation, as they have failed to disclose relevant information.
4.1) In principle, new mining devices are valuable because they are rare.
4.2) Selling Batch 2 shortly after Batch 1 for effectively 50% of the price is damaging the interests of their Batch 1 customers.
4.3) They did not disclose their intent for a Batch 2 at the time of Batch 1 pre-order, although it was material for the decision to order or not. Most customers would not have ordered if they had known the intent and pricing for Batch 2.

You can add to this list: Shipped 4 single cubes instead of a Titan in one Jupiter case for batch 1 customers.