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Author Topic: HyperStake Development Journal (HDJ)  (Read 18036 times)
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David Latapie
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October 10, 2014, 02:01:30 AM
 #41

I accidentally forgot that cycoinminer is not only the initiator of HyperLoan, he is also the initiation of HyperBank! I corrected the article according, quoting his proposal. I also addedd some extra pictures for a cartoonesque tardigrade.

Aigeezer, thank you for the suggestion. I'll ask presstab what he thinks of it. If you are new to HyperStake, I suggest you read http://hyperstake.wikia.com/ for further information.

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October 10, 2014, 11:51:25 AM
 #42

on HyperLoan

can the loaner split the 10000 into two 5000 blocks?

10000 * 7.5 / 365 * 8.8 = 1,808.22 HYP
800 HYP over the 1000 cap

5000 * 7.5 / 365 * 8.8 = 904.11 HYP
but will gain weight so assume after a day
5000 * 7.5 / 365 * 9.8 = 1,006.85 HYP

or maybe loan to two persons 5000 HYP each instead

just sharing ideas  Smiley

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October 10, 2014, 11:59:54 AM
 #43

I accidentally forgot that cycoinminer is not only the initiator of HyperLoan, he is also the initiation of HyperBank! I corrected the article according, quoting his proposal. I also addedd some extra pictures for a cartoonesque tardigrade.

Aigeezer, thank you for the suggestion. I'll ask presstab what he thinks of it. If you are new to HyperStake, I suggest you read http://hyperstake.wikia.com/ for further information.

Thanks. Yes, I got my first few thousand yesterday - only 190 hours to stake, he says, looking at his watch.    Wink

Looking at the wikia now. Everything seems very new, lots of stubs - early days - that's a good thing.
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October 10, 2014, 05:08:18 PM
 #44

on HyperLoan

can the loaner split the 10000 into two 5000 blocks?

10000 * 7.5 / 365 * 8.8 = 1,808.22 HYP
800 HYP over the 1000 cap

5000 * 7.5 / 365 * 8.8 = 904.11 HYP
but will gain weight so assume after a day
5000 * 7.5 / 365 * 9.8 = 1,006.85 HYP

or maybe loan to two persons 5000 HYP each instead

just sharing ideas  Smiley
The loaner should just loan. It's the borrower's responsability to do the rest.
Why?
  • Less work for the loaner. This may seem negligible if there is only one borrower, but it the experiment is successful, we will have several borrowers and then workload will increased significantly
  • The loaner shall not decide for the borrower
  • The borrower would learn how to optimise. Learning by doing. It would in turn encourage people to create tutorial, share hints... (which increased the community activity)

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October 10, 2014, 06:35:42 PM
 #45

Inflation is bad. Bad™. BAD. Why? Err... because. Voilà, c'est comme ça. This is bad because this is bad, period.
Oh well, this is bad because my errands list is more expensive every passing year, even though I buy the same thing. A coffee used to cost X cents, now it costs me X+Y% cents. Bad.
Oh! and the whole money creation thing too. This is bad, because QE, banksters and my grandmother. Gold rulez (gold = limited supply = deflation).

Well, maybe, maybe not. Deflation has one dire consequence: early adopters have it all. The problem is not about taking risk (risk/reward is good), the problem is about not having the opportunity. What about people who did not hear about it? What about those too young to invest? Heck, what about those who are not even born yet?

People who say you can't slow down emission because it looks like a scam... well in a few years 99% of all the currency will be emitted, how will that look like to newcomers (a scam?)

The instamine period is all relative. Even 4 years will look like an instamine in the context of 50 years.

Bitcoin may be considered premined after two extra years (who cares about the first years if new entrants can only get a bit of the money?).
One answer is redistribution, which requires merchant (and regulator) adoption. This is a race (and one that Monero is actually running and the minimal inflation at the end of the mining phase for incentivizing security of the network is not the same thing). If you cannot achieve to become mainstream enough before a substantial amount of the coin is mined, then you may face rejection because of perceived unfairness (and because the next coin is one click away - the reason why gold was not rejected despite being centralised is that there was no real competition). This whole "Bitcoin is premined" story might be a large incentive for the coming rise of cryptofiat.

Another option is inflation. Provided inflation is constant (linear, not logarithmic, curve) and unlimited in time, then there is no premine accusation possible (there would still be the "early adopters got it cheaper and I was not born yet" issue but then then price could also have lowered so it cancels out).
Now, inflation is not the only thing to take into consideration. The proof algorithm matters too. Here, proof-of-stake raises a significant concern, as mentionned by a redditer: since PoS is both mining power and reward (whereas for PoW, it is two different things, mining rig on one hand, token on the other hand), it is much easier to keep its wealth rank ("richlist"). The only way for someone to get richer than you is that either you sell or the other person buys. This encourages hoarding more than PoW does, which in turn reduces liquidity and thus increases volatility (in other words: people don't want to "kill the golden goose", so they don't sell, so there is less to buy, so when someone wants to buy at sell price, he raises the price significantly and the opposite when someone sells at buy prices).

Quote from: tokyoghetto link=topic=406112.msg6601689#msg6601689
the higher the interest, the less liquid the asset is, resulting in high volatility.

So, inflation with proof-of-work (like Dogecoin) prevents accusation of premine. Inflation with proof-of-stake (like HyperStake) does also, but reduces the chance of getting richer or poorer (except if you buy or sell, which are externalities).

Morale of the story? No "premine scam!" accusation with (linear emission curve and unlimited) inflation. Maybe inflation is not that bad. Opinions?

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October 10, 2014, 06:37:55 PM
 #46

Thanks. Yes, I got my first few thousand yesterday - only 190 hours to stake, he says, looking at his watch.  Wink
People get commited with the HYP, this is part of the community involvement. The "Age" column helps tremendously on this.

Looking at the wikia now. Everything seems very new, lots of stubs - early days - that's a good thing.
Since HYP is an inflationary coin, you are still an early adopter :-) See my previous post.

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October 10, 2014, 07:08:17 PM
 #47

Deflation has one dire consequence: early adopters have it all. The problem is not about taking risk (risk/reward is good), the problem is about not having the opportunity. What about people who did not hear about it? What about those too young to invest? Heck, what about those who are not even born yet?

Interesting point. I think the universal human condition of mortality takes care of this, albeit not elegantly. "Shrouds have no pockets". I don't mean this to seem flippant - a structural slow churn is hard-wired into our situation. Whenever anyone is born, other people hold all the goodies. After that, some win and some lose - some overcome dire odds, others squander a head-start. Most of us say or think "if only" from time to time - the wheel turns, and then it is somebody else's world. (Geezers think like this, I guess. I wasn't always a geezer).

Put more starkly - it really doesn't matter much if person X "has it all" to start with. They will keep some/all or lose some/all over time, as is their nature and their luck in life, and then their turn will end. Gates and Buffett worked for what they got. Some guy digging holes in the ground arguably worked harder and has nothing much to show for it. Some other guy found a lucky lottery ticket on the sidewalk. Yet another guy - written up in People Magazine as the Next Bill Gates - gets run over by a beer truck. Churn happens.

Bottom line: I wouldn't agonize too much over starting points. There will always be a starting point of some kind - and somebody will complain that it is not fair. They will be right, but that is not what matters.






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October 10, 2014, 07:20:32 PM
 #48

Inflation is bad. Bad™. BAD. Why? Err... because. Voilà, c'est comme ça. This is bad because this is bad, period.
Oh well, this is bad because my errands list is more expensive every passing year, even though I buy the same thing. A coffee used to cost X cents, now it costs me X+Y% cents. Bad.
Oh! and the whole money creation thing too. This is bad, because QE, banksters and my grandmother. Gold rulez (gold = limited supply = deflation).

Well, maybe, maybe not. Deflation has one dire consequence: early adopters have it all. The problem is not about taking risk (risk/reward is good), the problem is about not having the opportunity. What about people who did not hear about it? What about those too young to invest? Heck, what about those who are not even born yet?
I also don't hold the harsh views against moderate fiat inflation. If low 2-3% inflation targeting creates stable value storage, then I think that is something worth trading off, a bit of value loss for more stability.  Whether the CPI or whichever government tracked index is accurately modeled is a different conversation, from the underlying point. (and yes this theory isn't really much to do with HYP).

Quote
Bitcoin may be considered premined after two extra years (who cares about the first years if new entrants can only get a bit of the money?).

Thats a really good point. Most crypto-extremist trolls will hold alts to a much different standard than they do bitcoin. Did bitcoin have a POD (proof of devlopment/proof of bribe)?  Did bitcoin have a dev that released his identity public?  Bitcoin was essentially insta-mined as well. Sometimes it is hard to put everything into perspective with all of the required crypto expectations.

Quote
Another option is inflation. Provided inflation is constant (linear, not logarithmic, curve) and unlimited in time, then there is no premine accusation possible

One thing to keep in mind is that even with linear emission, the reward becomes less % of the coin supply overtime.  This does give more reward to early adopters. But it could also be said that early adopters have more risk and uncertainty of the direction of the coin, and thus should in fact have more reward. Any thoughts on this?

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October 10, 2014, 07:35:22 PM
 #49

Thank you for the mention david Cheesy.  I want to toss in one idea i had.  Right now HYP is 750% flat.  What about a degrading interest rate according to balance?

For example 1000 - 30,000 = 800%
30k - 60k = 750%
61K - 90k = 650%

etc until annual interest rate 1Mill HYP = 350/400%

I think this would help keep whales from dumping because of consistent competition from the people with lower balances.  I think that could help stem the balance of power.

One problem I can see arising from this is people owning multiple wallets with balances of 30K.  A VM could be setup to run multiple wallet instances at the expense of system resources.

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October 10, 2014, 07:45:19 PM
 #50

Thank you for the mention david Cheesy.  I want to toss in one idea i had.  Right now HYP is 750% flat.  What about a degrading interest rate according to balance?

For example 1000 - 30,000 = 800%
30k - 60k = 750%
61K - 90k = 650%

etc until annual interest rate 1Mill HYP = 350/400%

I think this would help keep whales from dumping because of consistent competition from the people with lower balances.  I think that could help stem the balance of power.

One problem I can see arising from this is people owning multiple wallets with balances of 30K.  A VM could be setup to run multiple wallet instances at the expense of system resources.

Impossible really. Nothing can keep someone from holding multiple addresses.

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October 10, 2014, 07:54:32 PM
 #51

only way i can think of stopping someone from owning multiple addresses is of the wallet was able to recognize the IP address (local machines IP) and combines the income that way.  Local machine IP address?

I'm just thinking out loud really lol.

But HYP is one of the coins everybody I work with is most excited about and for good reason.  The dev team has a track record that can be verified (and I have done my research) which is why I'm as confident as I can be that a large part of my holdings are in HYP.  Updates are consistent be it software, projects nearly every day I see ideas being tossed around.  This kind of flexibility to me is what is most exciting about this coin.  

We don't know where it will be a year or two from now but everything I have seen so far paints a very bright future for it.

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October 10, 2014, 07:56:13 PM
 #52

MAC address!  Those are always unique to the machine.

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October 10, 2014, 08:08:59 PM
 #53

MAC address!  Those are always unique to the machine.

MAC can be easely changed. The most unic thing is compilaton of hardware Id's.
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October 10, 2014, 08:31:58 PM
 #54

MAC address!  Those are always unique to the machine.

MAC can be easely changed. The most unic thing is compilaton of hardware Id's.

come to think about it I did spoof the mac address back in college to get around the download cap... so you are probably right.

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October 11, 2014, 02:01:14 AM
 #55

on HyperLoan

can the loaner split the 10000 into two 5000 blocks?

10000 * 7.5 / 365 * 8.8 = 1,808.22 HYP
800 HYP over the 1000 cap

5000 * 7.5 / 365 * 8.8 = 904.11 HYP
but will gain weight so assume after a day
5000 * 7.5 / 365 * 9.8 = 1,006.85 HYP

or maybe loan to two persons 5000 HYP each instead

just sharing ideas  Smiley
The loaner should just loan. It's the borrower's responsability to do the rest.
Why?
  • Less work for the loaner. This may seem negligible if there is only one borrower, but it the experiment is successful, we will have several borrowers and then workload will increased significantly
  • The loaner shall not decide for the borrower
  • The borrower would learn how to optimise. Learning by doing. It would in turn encourage people to create tutorial, share hints... (which increased the community activity)


"several borrowers" - sounds like there are plans of having more than just one hyperborrower, neat

"learning by doing" - it appears the borrower is free to split the blocks to optimise it and learn from it, ok point taken, i thought borrower wouldnt be allowed to split the 10000 so there wont be confusion with different staking times

all right, just getting a better picture of the HyperLoan experiment, thank you

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October 11, 2014, 04:56:08 AM
 #56


HYP to the moon considered harmful
locohammerhead raised the first issue: barrier to entry
Quote from: locohammerhead on IRC
<locohammerhead>     question and this is just speculation.  IF we hit 1 USD/HYP and it takes 1,500 HYP at least to stake how are we going to get new people into the coin?
<locohammerhead>    I'm thinking if thats the case we will be in the same situation where NXT is

Without going that high, the price of HyperStake could one day make it difficult for people to get at least 1,000 HYP (which is the recommanded minimum to have a good chance to ever stake). At this point, what do we do? Giveways would probably be taken mostly by the same persons, same for faucets. In any case, this would mean that HYP would be under medical care, with artificial life-support, which is neither good nor durable.

Cor2 has mentioned a saving account concept. If the profitability of HyperStake is proved over time, investors will enter gradually, buying some small amounts of HYP until it starts to stake. Possible dumps can also be an entry point. If the price is too high (e.g. $200), the PoS algo can be slightly changed with coindays modification that will give some additional weight to very small blocks thus increasing chances to stake.

With great power comes great responsabilities
Look at the richlist. The biggest whales (presstab, waxo, me, crazyloaf) have 6% of the coins. We know each other well and we have an ethic and we won’t sell like this and the community trust us. But this doesn’t suffice. The same way a coin shall not be on medical assistance, it should not depend on the good will on whales. A peculiarity of PoS is that the biggest holders are generally also the biggest “miners”. As someone pointed it on reddit.

Quote from: illogy on r/Bitcoin
PoS coins [...], always end with centralization because, as I have said, once someone [...] gains majority possession of the units of money, they control the currency forever.
So, noblesse oblige. We just cannot do whatever we want with our HYP. If we sell, some other people will become the biggest whales. At least you know us and so far, we had the best interest of HYP in mind.

Cryptocurenncy is just an ordinary fiat currency (it will become it when it will be governmentally and economically adopted), but with a revolutionary way of emission and transaction mechanics. And its redistribution principle (through exchanges) is quietly the same (except of purchasing power parity, which crypto doesn’t have yet), independently from a proof algorithm. It means that both fiat and cryptocurrency exchange rate can be manipulated by some persons or institutions. In our case, whales, or market makers, play a role of stabilizers (passively) when they don’t sell. If someone decide to dump, the market will bend and then recover (and dumped coins will probably be redistributed among lots of holders), if only he won’t decide to dump continuously. But this type of behavior isn’t in whales interests (and too costly for attackers ATM). Especially taking into account that there is some ideology in HyperStake movement, that starts to emerge.

HyperStake bootstrap server - hyperstrap.ml
HyperStake supply gain prediction graph - hypsupply.ml
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October 12, 2014, 08:08:33 PM
 #57

One thing to keep in mind is that even with linear emission, the reward becomes less % of the coin supply overtime.  This does give more reward to early adopters. But it could also be said that early adopters have more risk and uncertainty of the direction of the coin, and thus should in fact have more reward. Any thoughts on this?
Looks like risk/reward to me but maybe a increasing reward (with inflation control) would make for a lesser advantage for early adopters. The risk is HYP getting out of control and I have no desire to change this, too risky and too unclear. So, mainly an academic consideration.
One more thing to add: most early bitcoin holders (2009-2011) sold most of their Bitcoin. If at a certain moment, HYP could generate enough revenues for making a (small) living, whales would start to sell, thus permitting redistribution. Ditto with merchant adoption, but the good thing is that these two options are compatible (the second one requires more work, of course).
What an experiment! HYP is getting more interesting by the day, from an experimentation point of view.

One problem I can see arising from this is people owning multiple wallets with balances of 30K.  A VM could be setup to run multiple wallet instances at the expense of system resources.
Or even just by starting on another port, with -port=XXXXX (not sure about this one)). Thus, it cannot work (IP or MAC cannot either, IP-spoofing and MAC-spoofing are easy and in China you can even buy network cards with hardware identical MAC - even Hardware ID can be faked because, ultimately, they are under the control of the end user).
An IT security saying goes that "any client-side security only affects the honest user" (see also evil bit). Keeping this saying in mind is a great way to save hours or day (or dollars) in good-looking-but-fundamentally-broken solutions (not a criticism, just a productivity hint).

Especially taking into account that there is some ideology in HyperStake movement, that starts to emerge.
Interesting. Now that you are saying it, it is quite true. I have some opinion, but could you try to summarize this ideology?

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October 13, 2014, 09:40:32 AM
 #58

Especially taking into account that there is some ideology in HyperStake movement, that starts to emerge.
Interesting. Now that you are saying it, it is quite true. I have some opinion, but could you try to summarize this ideology?

The basic (raw) idea is in this. We create a new paradigm of social protection. We redistribute money from rich to more sensitive social stratas. A customer (currency user: gambler, gamer etc.) pays for his wishes directly to an investor. It's like an alternative pension insurance.

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October 13, 2014, 08:48:37 PM
 #59

OK, time for a new one

Records
On October 12th, we broke three records:

  • Volume ranking in Poloniex: #3. It definitely attracts curiosity, especially when a coin manages this without a ridiculous pump like +170%.
  • Daily volume exceeding 15 BTC. If you are familiar with high-PoS, you know this is veeeeeery far from what any high-PoS could ever get (most high-PoS would be happy to have 1 BTC of daily volume - this is due to the very characteristics of high-PoS, which encourages hoarding much more than selling).
  • At the time of writing, the difficulty is 1.3, probably the most secure high-PoS network ever.
  • ATH price of 5056 satoshi. Yes, we did it, even if it was for a brief moment: we broke the 5K barrier.

The last record, arguably sexy, should not be the matter of much focus. As I detailled on the "Rich man's problem", section "HYP to the moon considered harmful", a high price may pose problems for new entrants. This, plus raising too fast means dumping later, which shakes confidence, something we don't want.
On the plus side, if we sustain this 5k price, sluppy confirmed that he will honour his promise to donate 1 BTC to the dev. Well done, sluppy!

The day after, October 13th, we broke two records again:

  • Volume ranking in Poloniex: #2. So I am the only one in the weurld to be core team member in the two highest volumes coins in Poloniex :p
  • Daily volume exceeding 18.757 BTC. Yeah, me too I could not believe it.

Qt5
The wallet is moving to Qt5. Qt5 opens up opportunities such as much easier to create Android Wallet.

Nostalgia
While looking for the 1BTC pledge, I found these two old posts , that became history
Interesting coin. I am a freelance dev that has worked on numerous PoS coins. Haven't worked on any x11 + PoS.  I am going to add this to my portfolio of coins just for fun.

Hello TRK community. As a gift to you and as an economic experiment I am forking this coin!  Please note that this will not in anyway affect this coin, it will continue to live on as is.

You will however be given a copy of any of the coins you hold in the new forked coin, HYP.  Check out the announcement here, your sister coin Smiley
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678849.0

Hyperstake.com
The site had been completely revamped, thanks to squiggie. Any input and participation welcome! Eventually, the HDJ might move to hyperstake.com.

Hyp-casino
We are continuing to extend the IRC games. We already have rain on ##hyperstake, ##hyp-lotto (you must tip the bot before playing), ##hyp-trivia (quizzes) and ##hyp-poker (##hyp-games is deprecated). Today, we are proud to release ##hyp-casino, with four games in the same channel.

Looking for new exchanges
In the following days, we will try to be on Bittrex and BTC38.

Paying your debts with HyperStake
Today is the first time I am aware of that someone paid a debt in USD with HYP (even better, it was on the loaner's request).

Update: countmycrypto.com
I knew I forgot something. countmycrypto.com is a site I discovered in March (then forgot). It is much nicer to use than coinreporting or coinfinance. Plus, you can add your address for constant update (won't work if you spread the same coin on several addresses, though). No account, no server, everything is saved in your browser (LocalStorage, a HTML5 feature). It is a plus for privacy, but without an export format, it is a pain if you have several computers, reinstall... The Chrome extension plus syncing your Chrome browser is a beginning of solution.


This is all for now. I might update this digest, so stay tuned! If you have any news to announce for the next digest, just contact me (HyperDigests are of irregular frequency).

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October 13, 2014, 08:59:27 PM
 #60


Nostalgia
While looking for the 1BTC pledge, I found these two old posts , that became history
Interesting coin. I am a freelance dev that has worked on numerous PoS coins. Haven't worked on any x11 + PoS.  I am going to add this to my portfolio of coins just for fun.

Hello TRK community. As a gift to you and as an economic experiment I am forking this coin!  Please note that this will not in anyway affect this coin, it will continue to live on as is.

You will however be given a copy of any of the coins you hold in the new forked coin, HYP.  Check out the announcement here, your sister coin Smiley
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678849.0


Nostalgia is correct! Boy that seems like a year ago (and probably is about 1 year in crypto-time).

Quote
Paying your debts with HyperStake
Today is the first time I am aware of that someone paid a debt in USD with HYP (on the loaner's request).

 Wink

Good post as always David! This journal has turned out great.

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