Milwaukee Makerspace's response to Bitcoin

[mizerydearia]

http://groups.google.com/group/milwaukeemakerspace/browse_thread/thread/17ad4a5de564b0d5

I had never heard of bitcoin. But now that I've read about it, it seems like a pretty bad idea.

It does seem a little unnecessary considering PayPal and all the other micropayment systems that are out there.

I think it's yet another example of "I know things like this already exist, but my way is better because it's shinier and it's 'decentralized'".  Just think of how much innovation there would really be on the Internet if people would stop reinventing the wheel because they think theirs is more round... </cynicism>

Innovation comes by building on the work that came before and deciding that the status quo is not good enough. Paypal was just a reinvention of money-moving services like western union and such. What you have to do is find where an idea is lacking or limited in some way and fix it. In this case Bitcoin does not really address any existing problems and makes the process slightly more complicated.

My troll-liek instinct kicked in, and I became very afraid...  I'm still afraid.  So, I don't want to contribute to the mailing list thread any longer. =/

I won't bother participating in this discussion further as I sense it may result in a kind of yet another dramatic troll-liek conversation/discussion involving those that understand and/or accept bitcoin versus those that do not understand and/or do not accept bitcoin.

Possible contents worthy of checking out:

http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
http://blip.tv/file/4771178
http://weusecoins.com/
http://media.witcoin.com/
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=https://smsz.net/btcStats/bitcoin.kml

[1714192476]

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[nanotube]

how about "no party can freeze your account", "no party can print out a shitload of currency and devalue it", "no chargebacks", "no extra fee on international transfers", "mostly free transactions"...

[rosso]

Mizery,

There's no reason to be afraid.  We're all nice people.  I think the reaction by myself (and the few others) was due to a lack of an explanation of how something like Bitcoin could benefit our group.  Many of us have never heard of it I gather, and probably don't understand quite what purpose it serves.  You are free to come to our meeting tonight at 7:00 (directions on milwaukeemakerspace.org) and bring it up for discussion.

--Ross

[cypherdoc]

how about "no party can freeze your account", "no party can print out a shitload of currency and devalue it", "no chargebacks", "no extra fee on international transfers", "mostly free transactions"...

let me pile on:

how about no special counterfeiting privileges to the banksters, no more bailouts to protect their houses in the Hampton, their yachts, blow chicks, crack, no more driving up the stock mkt for their own benefit, no more claws into the US Treasury and the American ppl, no more austerity measures for the ppl of the world, no more piling up debt on the backs of the middle class just so banksters can continue stealing from the rest of us; i know i'm forgetting some things...

[AtlasONo]

They are interested now. Go back and talk to them and maybe delete this thread so nobody goes in and turns them off to the idea.

[mizerydearia]

Respond to:

Well as someone that doesn't understand bitcoin, how do you control the value of the currency to say, guard against inflation? What are these "counterfeiting privileges to the banksters"?  Do you mean the Federal Reserve?  This bank serves a very important purpose, and the power it has to regulate the dollar has saved our asses before.  And how does a new currency prevent "no more austerity measures for the ppl of the world".  Please explain for my benefit.  There is no drama here.  I want to learn.

[mewantsbitcoins]

Respond to:

Well as someone that doesn't understand bitcoin, how do you control the value of the currency to say, guard against inflation? What are these "counterfeiting privileges to the banksters"?  Do you mean the Federal Reserve?  This bank serves a very important purpose, and the power it has to regulate the dollar has saved our asses before.  And how does a new currency prevent "no more austerity measures for the ppl of the world".  Please explain for my benefit.  There is no drama here.  I want to learn.

He's either stupid or lives in another universe where tax payers haven't bailed out banks for the second time recently.

[rosso]

Calling people names and copping a "damn the man; I know better than everyone" attitude isn't helping your cause, guys.

We (MMS) are a very diverse group of people with very diverse interests and very diverse worldviews.

We're open to the idea.  Just please try to explain how Bitcoin would benefit our group if we accepted it for donations.  Don't act like anarchists and know-it-alls.

--Ross

[prolixus]

The most obvious benefit is that it would allow your organization to receive small donations online without the sender needing to pay transaction fees. The only infrastructure on your end that would be needed is to run the bitcoin client in order to generate an address for donors to send to and keeping the wallet that has access to that address secure.

[mewantsbitcoins]

The most obvious benefit is that it would allow your organization to receive small donations online without the sender needing to pay transaction fees. The only infrastructure on your end that would be needed is to run the bitcoin client in order to generate an address for donors to send to and keeping the wallet that has access to that address secure.

Even that is unnecessary. Anyone can use mybitcoin.com eWallet.

[Shortline]

Calling people names and copping a "damn the man; I know better than everyone" attitude isn't helping your cause, guys.

We (MMS) are a very diverse group of people with very diverse interests and very diverse worldviews.

We're open to the idea.  Just please try to explain how Bitcoin would benefit our group if we accepted it for donations.  Don't act like anarchists and know-it-alls.

--Ross

Hey Ross, don't let them get the better of you. Thanks for coming into the bitcoiner's den, shows your genuine interest and willingness to accept or reject ideas and technologies based on their merits and that's a true maker's attitude. The thing is there are a lot of acolytes here who have been stewing on these forums for a long time and almost every possible debate has been brought up multiple times; they get a bit prickly:)

As mentioned above, donations are probably your best reason to use bitcoin right now. If you want proof you might check out the little list of organizations that are taking bitcoins on the wiki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Donation-accepting_organizations_and_projects. Find something you like, go to donation page and copy/paste their bitcoin address into www.blockexplorer.com. For instance, Hackerspace Brmlab (first hackerspace in the Czech Republic) is taking bitcoins, you can see their skimpy haul at http://blockexplorer.com/address/1Ndx4BtSwpyWpGHopQ5fhbB5CB7LYHJFFR

If you get some bitcoin donated, you can sell 'em on www.mtgox.com for USD or bitcoin-otc for any imaginable other exchange, you can trade 'em with any of the merchants listed on the wiki, or you can just hang on to 'em and sell in a year or two (lotsa speculation that prices will explode in 2013). You probably will get donations because we're in an era of excitement coupled with many people who have a whack of bitcoins to go around - I've given outlandish donations to organizations because I paid $0.60 for my bitcoins and now they're cracking $5.00.

One final note: this forum is the home of the true believers. I don't count myself as one of those, I don't particularly give a fuck about American fiscal policy or "banksters" or even PayPal, but I do appreciate bitcoins' ability to put more practical power in the hands of anyone who wants to bother. We have homebrew 3D printers and CNC machines galore, unprecedented access to materials, and hopefully we'll have a native internet currency to pay for it all someday soon. Long-term, that's exactly where bitcoin dovetails perfectly with the maker's credo.

[goatpig]

This bank serves a very important purpose, and the power it has to regulate the dollar has saved our asses before.

You can't understand the benefits of Bitcoins if you think the Fed is a useful government agency. I think the best way to for you to figure out whether you like this concept or not is to research the arguments against the Fed and its policies. If you can conclude from that search that a decentralized, deflationary currency is superior to the dollar as it stands, then you'll embrace Bitcoin.

[Meni Rosenfeld]

This bank serves a very important purpose, and the power it has to regulate the dollar has saved our asses before.

You can't understand the benefits of Bitcoins if you think the Fed is a useful government agency. I think the best way to for you to figure out whether you like this concept or not is to research the arguments against the Fed and its policies. If you can conclude from that search that a decentralized, deflationary currency is superior to the dollar as it stands, then you'll embrace Bitcoin.

That's completely wrong. You can appreciate the endless list of things Bitcoin has to offer without having any opinion whatsoever about politics.

[Shortline]

This bank serves a very important purpose, and the power it has to regulate the dollar has saved our asses before.

You can't understand the benefits of Bitcoins if you think the Fed is a useful government agency. I think the best way to for you to figure out whether you like this concept or not is to research the arguments against the Fed and its policies. If you can conclude from that search that a decentralized, deflationary currency is superior to the dollar as it stands, then you'll embrace Bitcoin.

That's completely wrong. You can appreciate the endless list of things Bitcoin has to offer without having any opinion whatsoever about politics.

I'd say we need this fucking list. I'll start:

1. Anyone can use and understand bitcoin. It's as simple as you want it to be.

[John Kirk]

Don't act like anarchists and know-it-alls.

--Ross

But ... we are a bunch of anarchists and know-it-alls.  I'm a know-it-all myself, and I can't stand all the anarchists on this forum that think they know it all!

[goatpig]

This bank serves a very important purpose, and the power it has to regulate the dollar has saved our asses before.

You can't understand the benefits of Bitcoins if you think the Fed is a useful government agency. I think the best way to for you to figure out whether you like this concept or not is to research the arguments against the Fed and its policies. If you can conclude from that search that a decentralized, deflationary currency is superior to the dollar as it stands, then you'll embrace Bitcoin.

That's completely wrong. You can appreciate the endless list of things Bitcoin has to offer without having any opinion whatsoever about politics.

You'll want to reread my post. My point isn't you have to know about the Fed misdeeds to like Bitcoin, my point is this guy HAS an opinion about the Fed already. That's why directing him to dig on that one will let him see for himself whether he wants Bitcoins or not, considering the rest of his post shows he doesn't understand the major advantages of Bitcoin has over fiat.

I agree the list is long, but what about we start by the items at the very top hmm?

[goatpig]

I'd say we need this fucking list. I'll start:

1. Anyone can use and understand bitcoin. It's as simple as you want it to be.

This guy isn't complaining about the ease of use but the usefulness altogether. He doesn't want to know if he can use Bitcoins, he wants to know why he should be using it.

[eMansipater]

Calling people names and copping a "damn the man; I know better than everyone" attitude isn't helping your cause, guys.

We (MMS) are a very diverse group of people with very diverse interests and very diverse worldviews.

We're open to the idea.  Just please try to explain how Bitcoin would benefit our group if we accepted it for donations.  Don't act like anarchists and know-it-alls.

--Ross

+1
Honestly, this guy could be speaking for the whole internets.  Leave your agenda at the door and provide a clear, useful answer; and people will love BitCoin!

[mizerydearia]

This is interesting concept:

I agree with Matt.  These two things come off very differently:

1. "Do you accept Bitcoin?  See <link> and <link>."

2. "I am a member of the Bitcoin community and I think it would be of great benefit for Milwaukee Makerspace to get involved with it for reasons X, Y, and Z.  If you're unfamiliar with it, it is <explanation>.  Please see <link> and <link> for more information."

#1 is, as Matt pointed out, designed to illicit a controversial response.  That's what trolling is.  It's like posting "WHO IS JOHN GALT" everywhere.

#2 is making your case and is much more likely to engage people in less frenetic and less emotional debate.  Keep in mind that we are a group of tinkerers and entrepreneurs, not digital revolutionaries or open source freedom fighters.  Some of us are, but not the group as a whole.

We really are open to any and all ideas, but you need to expect some skepticism and inquiry (and even negativity) if all you're doing is promoting a cause and asking the group to adopt a policy at large without providing reasons why it's a good idea.  Some of us are very passionate people, but don't be dissuaded from getting involved with MMS just because we want to have a discussion.  We're really not that scary!

Again, sorry for going overboard earlier.  Nobody meant any offense.

Also

I actually don't think his initial question was intended to inflame a negative response, but it was not followed up with proper explanation.

Pete Prodoehl has very successfully asked photographers all over Flickr and the internet if they would consider Creative Commons licensing their photos. His question is nearly the same as Mizery's initial question.

I recognize or understand now that my initial wording (or lack thereof)

Does Milwaukee Makerspace accept Bitcoin donations?  See http://weusecoins.com/ and http://bitcoin.org/

is contributory towards resulting in a oppositional or conflicting type of response.

I should have put more effort, time and description of my personal background as well as background or information of Bitcoin so as to produce or create a more accomodating, comforting or accepting type of atmosphere or influence.  My apologies.

Note, this response from me is not sarcastic.

It is worth mentioning that Mizery De Aria asked the same question to the DHMN list 1 minute after he asked this list.

I don't know if he sent emails to 2 lists today, or 200, or 2000.... He may just be an excited evangelist of the technology. Does he live in Wisconsin? Near Milwaukee? Near Appleton? Dunno... Maybe he's doing a poll of all sorts of people/groups about their Bitcoin acceptance.

As for Creative Commons... Did I do that!? Wow, I must be awesome...

I contacted both Milwaukee and Appleton hackerspaces, particular because I recently lived in Appleton for 6.5 years and am now living in Milwaukee.  Also, I recently visited San Francisco and experienced hackerspaces for the first time.  Since that experience, I have been excited to learn more about hackerspaces and makerspaces nearby where I live.  Since I also have been massively excited about Bitcoin for the last year (since first /. article), that's pretty much all I talk about nowadays is bitcoin, whether it's on the Internet or in person.  This may seem obnoxious that many of my communications or efforts are bitcoin-related, however, I am enthusiastic about it and it doesn't seem to be evilly influenced, which are things that I am not excited about at all.

Also, I updated original post with link to a map from http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2346.0 showing where bitcoin nodes around the world are located, to give a better perspective of how distributed bitcoin is.

[nanotube]

We're open to the idea.  Just please try to explain how Bitcoin would benefit our group if we accepted it for donations.  Don't act like anarchists and know-it-alls.

Hey,
If all you want to know is how it will benefit you, the benefits are really rather simple and have nothing to do with philosophy or economic theory.

1. Receiving bitcoins is free - no paypal fees, no credit card fees, etc.
2. The effort required to start receiving bitcoin donations is minimal (create a mybitcoin account or install the client, then paste a bitcoin address on your website)
3. Sending bitcoins is easy and nearly-always free. People who use bitcoin tend to be always up for throwing in a few bits to organizations they support, since the barrier to doing so is quite low.
4. You don't lose anything by putting up a bitcoin address - those who prefer to use paypal or whatever other methods you currently accept, can continue to do so. You only gain, potential bitcoin donations.
5. Exchanging bitcoins to USD is quite easy. Selling coins is a lot easier than buying them. (Try #bitcoin-otc channel. MtGox now also allows you cash out via Dwolla directly).

So in summary, from a purely practical standpoint - you have nothing to lose, and potential new revenue to gain, at a cost of a few moments of your time.