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Author Topic: Hello! New Bitcoin Exchange in town  (Read 5860 times)
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May 01, 2012, 03:59:06 AM
 #41

I'm going to try to help you one more time. Please take the time to read this: http://www.aboutpaypal.org/

If, after reading, you still decide to include PayPal as part of your business plan, then expect to receive 0 customers from this forum. I take that back. Expect to receive X customers from this forum to use your exchange, all of which will issue a charge back.

~Bruno~

QuickBitcoins, don't get us wrong.  We are trying to help you here.  You have a nice site and I am sure you and your wife put a lot of effort into this.  But if you accept paypal for BTC, you will have a lot of customers (X), and will most likely lose a lot of money. 
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May 01, 2012, 04:04:29 AM
 #42

The buyers are not at risk, so you're saying they will not buy from us on principle alone?  May I also ask why anyone would issue charge backs for the reason you just stated, other than out of sheer maliciousness?  I am having a hard time understanding why someone would do that when we are doing everything possible to protect the customer from being defrauded, but you are saying that is exactly the reason people *should* defraud us?  This makes no sense, sir.

Coming from someone who has tried working with Paypal with their specific written permission of being allowed to do so, and then having them close your account and freezing your funds for 180 days, its not worth it.

I repeat, Paypal still has over $15,000 of my funds frozen for another 90 days.

What did they do when you showed them the written permission they gave you?

Nothing.

I broke up my 10 year multi-million dollar relationship and closed my 4 other accounts with them the same day. I was processing 100k+ a day on my various retail sites thru Paypal.

The key is to prevent having chargebacks in the first place.  This is why we go to such lengths to verify the authenticity of each buyer before we will accept and fill any order.  As stated before, we ARE aware of the fact that PayPal can and possibly will lock down our account.  By withdrawing the money and limiting the size of PayPal transactions, we are ensuring that the total loss will be at most the size of one transaction, which is more than offset by the profit gained by using PayPal in the first place.  Also, as previously stated, PayPal is only a temporary solution during the time in which it takes to get going with another credit card processor.  

Your not understanding something here, forget chargebacks as you understand it.

Everything your doing is preventing someone from wanting to chargeback if they are not satisfied with the product.

Scammers will use your system to use stolen and hacked cc'd to buy Bitcoin, and then your the one who has to bear the loss.

If you want, I can easily bypass your verification system with a stolen credit card, buy Bitcoin once a day over a few weeks, and then watch as the owners slowly call their banks to claim fraud and your cc processor drops you. I will do this for you to prove a point, no ill intentions but you will lose over $10k at least. Out of your pocket.

Would you rather me do it, or a scammer?


So why would the CEO of a multi-million dollar organization have lots of stolen credit card numbers to use?

Look, we understand the concern you are all expressing about our business model, given the number and types of failures you've seen previously.  I also don't think you fully understand the level of research I do into every. single. PayPal order.  I have verified statements coming from the customer verbally stating that they are buying the bitcoins, the order area code, billing address, and IP address all must geographically match, check to be sure that the phone number is not a GoogleVoice or other calling service number, match the email that the order was submitted with to the PayPal account, and in cases when I feel there is still a possibility of fraud, even do further research which I'm not willing to mention here.  Even if someone DOES charge back with my new processor, I can and will prove that it's a fraudulent chargeback and win, if someone even manages to get that far in the first place.
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May 01, 2012, 04:08:49 AM
 #43

For instance, today we had an order in which everything matched except the phone area code.  I spoke with the customer extensively, and in every way he seemed to be legitimate, but because he was unable to provide a non-GoogleVoice phone number with an area code that matched his geographic location, we cancelled his order and refunded his payment.  Possibly 15% or more of our potential legitimate orders (not even the ones which are obviously carders) we regretfully decline and refund due to issues like this.  Yes, we may be losing some business, but we feel it is far better to err on the side of caution in this instance.

As a matter of fact, the very first order we ever received was someone trying to place an order with a stolen credit card.  When we contacted the person associated with the card, we discovered that he had not in fact placed an order with us, and were able to help him to report his card as stolen (he had no idea that it had been).  As a result, he is now a new member of the bitcoin community and he has given us a good review for the service we were able to provide him, albeit not in bitcoins.
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May 01, 2012, 04:17:11 AM
 #44

For instance, today we had an order in which everything matched except the phone area code.  I spoke with the customer extensively, and in every way he seemed to be legitimate, but because he was unable to provide a non-GoogleVoice phone number with an area code that matched his geographic location, we cancelled his order and refunded his payment.  Possibly 15% or more of our potential legitimate orders (not even the ones which are obviously carders) we regretfully decline and refund due to issues like this.  Yes, we may be losing some business, but we feel it is far better to err on the side of caution in this instance.

As a matter of fact, the very first order we ever received was someone trying to place an order with a stolen credit card.  When we contacted the person associated with the card, we discovered that he had not in fact placed an order with us, and were able to help him to report his card as stolen (he had no idea that it had been).  As a result, he is now a new member of the bitcoin community and he has given us a good review for the service we were able to provide him, albeit not in bitcoins.

Thats all irrelevant, Paypal will close you down once they suspect your using them to use Bitcoin. Period, no questions asked.

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

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May 01, 2012, 04:25:22 AM
 #45


Thats all irrelevant, Paypal will close you down once they suspect your using them to use Bitcoin. Period, no questions asked.

As stated before, we understand this.
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May 01, 2012, 04:57:55 AM
 #46


Thats all irrelevant, Paypal will close you down once they suspect your using them to use Bitcoin. Period, no questions asked.

As stated before, we understand this.

And there's the rub. Would you do business with an entity who you know is using another business, no matter how unscrupulous said business may be, to forward their business until another option presents itself to use to further their own business?

Translated: Pretend I operate a new Bitcoin exchange business that will USE PayPal so my clients can purchase bitcoins until PayPal closes me down, at which point I will then have another credit card processor in place until they too close me down, at which point I'll have another in place, etc. At some point during this whole ordeal, I would have amassed many a bitcoin. But now all my accounts are frozen and I need to end this business. Lucky for me I already have a letter written in case such an event takes place. In starts off as follows: From the desk of Phinnaeus Gage,... Now, would you do business with me after I laid all that out beforehand?

~Bruno~
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May 01, 2012, 05:05:04 AM
 #47


Thats all irrelevant, Paypal will close you down once they suspect your using them to use Bitcoin. Period, no questions asked.

As stated before, we understand this.

And here's the rub. Would you do business with an entity who you know is using another business, no matter how unscrupulous said business may be, to forward their business until another option presents itself to use to further their own business?

Translated: Pretend I operate a new Bitcoin exchange business that will USE PayPal so my clients can purchase bitcoins until PayPal closes me down, at which point I will then have another credit card processor in place until they too close me down, at which point I'll have another in place, etc. At some point during this whole ordeal, I would have amassed many a bitcoin. But now all my accounts are frozen and I need to end this business. Lucky for me I already have a letter written in case such an event takes place. In starts off as follows: From the desk of Phinnaeus Gage,... Now, would you do business with me after I laid all that out beforehand?

~Bruno~


That's not how I laid things out at all. I never said I would jump from processor to processor. I said I would leave PayPal when they froze my account. I have no plans to leave a authorize.net. I've even written them asking if bitcoins is against their TOS. Please note that I expect the account to be frozen for dealing with Bitcoins, not due to chargebacks. At that point if the site volume becomes too large to handle all the manual verification I have plans to make the credit card aspect invite only. 

You're changing what I am saying to make my plan easier to attack. This is called the Straw-man argument. What I cant figure out is why you want this to fail so badly.
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May 01, 2012, 05:34:27 AM
 #48

Again, I don't think anybody is trying to attack you.  Maybe Bruno is saying that people who genuinely want to exchange BTC via paypal will not do it with you because they foresee problems with your business model.  You will attract people who will profit from your business.  If I don't want you to lose money, I would tell you to be careful.  If I am looking to profit from your business, I would wait quietly for my turn.  Getting paid with paypal and sending out BTC are both very easy to do.  Try to see why there aren't any successful businesses exchanging BTC with paypal.  Just make sure this is worth your time and don't lose money.
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May 01, 2012, 05:41:33 AM
 #49


Thats all irrelevant, Paypal will close you down once they suspect your using them to use Bitcoin. Period, no questions asked.

As stated before, we understand this.

And here's the rub. Would you do business with an entity who you know is using another business, no matter how unscrupulous said business may be, to forward their business until another option presents itself to use to further their own business?

Translated: Pretend I operate a new Bitcoin exchange business that will USE PayPal so my clients can purchase bitcoins until PayPal closes me down, at which point I will then have another credit card processor in place until they too close me down, at which point I'll have another in place, etc. At some point during this whole ordeal, I would have amassed many a bitcoin. But now all my accounts are frozen and I need to end this business. Lucky for me I already have a letter written in case such an event takes place. In starts off as follows: From the desk of Phinnaeus Gage,... Now, would you do business with me after I laid all that out beforehand?

~Bruno~


That's not how I laid things out at all. I never said I would jump from processor to processor. I said I would leave PayPal when they froze my account. I have no plans to leave a authorize.net. I've even written them asking if bitcoins is against their TOS. Please note that I expect the account to be frozen for dealing with Bitcoins, not due to chargebacks. At that point if the site volume becomes too large to handle all the manual verification I have plans to make the credit card aspect invite only. 

You're changing what I am saying to make my plan easier to attack. This is called the Straw-man argument. What I cant figure out is why you want this to fail so badly.

You're fuckin kidding me, right? Here we are trying to help you, but you can't figure out why we want you to fail. As far as the Straw-man argument is concern, that is not the case either, albeit you never did state that you would jump from processor to processor. Lets start with the facts then. You will leave PayPal when they freeze your account. Keep zeroing the account every hour on the hour and I say you're good for a few days--at most. A couple months ago, PayPal told my sister that she had to quit the same practice while operating her eBay account, and she was doing it only 4-5 times a day--all ligit transactions. You stated that you're using PayPal until they freeze you out but by then have another processor in place, therefore at the moment you don't have one in place. You wrote to PayPal asking them if bitcoins is against their TOS. Their reply? If you know beforehand that your PayPal account will be frozen in some point of time, why use that service in the first place? Now I ask other question. Why are you so adamant in using PayPal?

Here's a quick story. Once upon a time, a married coupled, let's call them Bruce and Ed, expressed that a great place to hold a convention would be, let's call it Pattaya. All the convention goers tried to convince them that Pattaya was a terrible choice to hold a convention, but they didn't heed the warnings, going so far as to start dissing the so-called naysayers. Long story short, the naysayers were right, and the couple distanced themselves from the group. The happy couple would probably still be part of the group if they hadn't remained steadfast and adamant with their original idea.

~Bruno~
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May 01, 2012, 05:49:49 AM
 #50

Also, when you transfer money from PayPal to your bank account, PayPal states that the money will arrive in your account in three or four business days. All because you click the send button, doesn't mean that PayPal no longer has control of said funds. Those funds are not sitting inside some copper wire between PayPal's server and your bank. They are going through an approval process.

To be clear, there is no Straw-man argument, real or intended, in this post, nor do I want your business to fail.

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May 01, 2012, 06:11:16 AM
 #51

If you plan on doing this, you'll also need to zero your bank account daily. Paypal WILL get through the block you set up, prior agreements be damned.

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May 01, 2012, 12:48:26 PM
 #52

If you plan on doing this, you'll also need to zero your bank account daily. Paypal WILL get through the block you set up, prior agreements be damned.

I told him that already but he did not listen

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May 01, 2012, 01:10:00 PM
 #53


Thats all irrelevant, Paypal will close you down once they suspect your using them to use Bitcoin. Period, no questions asked.

As stated before, we understand this.

And here's the rub. Would you do business with an entity who you know is using another business, no matter how unscrupulous said business may be, to forward their business until another option presents itself to use to further their own business?

Translated: Pretend I operate a new Bitcoin exchange business that will USE PayPal so my clients can purchase bitcoins until PayPal closes me down, at which point I will then have another credit card processor in place until they too close me down, at which point I'll have another in place, etc. At some point during this whole ordeal, I would have amassed many a bitcoin. But now all my accounts are frozen and I need to end this business. Lucky for me I already have a letter written in case such an event takes place. In starts off as follows: From the desk of Phinnaeus Gage,... Now, would you do business with me after I laid all that out beforehand?

~Bruno~


That's not how I laid things out at all. I never said I would jump from processor to processor. I said I would leave PayPal when they froze my account. I have no plans to leave a authorize.net. I've even written them asking if bitcoins is against their TOS. Please note that I expect the account to be frozen for dealing with Bitcoins, not due to chargebacks. At that point if the site volume becomes too large to handle all the manual verification I have plans to make the credit card aspect invite only.  

You're changing what I am saying to make my plan easier to attack. This is called the Straw-man argument. What I cant figure out is why you want this to fail so badly.

You're fuckin kidding me, right? Here we are trying to help you, but you can't figure out why we want you to fail. As far as the Straw-man argument is concern, that is not the case either, albeit you never did state that you would jump from processor to processor. Lets start with the facts then. You will leave PayPal when they freeze your account. Keep zeroing the account every hour on the hour and I say you're good for a few days--at most. A couple months ago, PayPal told my sister that she had to quit the same practice while operating her eBay account, and she was doing it only 4-5 times a day--all ligit transactions. You stated that you're using PayPal until they freeze you out but by then have another processor in place, therefore at the moment you don't have one in place. You wrote to PayPal asking them if bitcoins is against their TOS. Their reply? If you know beforehand that your PayPal account will be frozen in some point of time, why use that service in the first place? Now I ask other question. Why are you so adamant in using PayPal?

Here's a quick story. Once upon a time, a married coupled, let's call them Bruce and Ed, expressed that a great place to hold a convention would be, let's call it Pattaya. All the convention goers tried to convince them that Pattaya was a terrible choice to hold a convention, but they didn't heed the warnings, going so far as to start dissing the so-called naysayers. Long story short, the naysayers were right, and the couple distanced themselves from the group. The happy couple would probably still be part of the group if they hadn't remained steadfast and adamant with their original idea.

~Bruno~


I'm not attempting to "diss" you at all. I haven't suggested anything you have said is "bullshit", called you a scammer, or unprofessional. I'm not sure who is insulting who here.

I also called the new credit card processor, not PayPal.

Look. Like I said before. I appreciate the fact that you are trying to help us here, but I feel as though my plan has addressed all the possible concerns you have raised. If I'm wrong then it's my fault. It's my mistake to make. You get to tell me "haha I told you so" if I lose money on this. I'm not trying to ostracize from the community in any way, shape, or form.  If simply disagreeing with you and making my own mistakes makes that happen then why would I want to be apart of the community in the first place?
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May 01, 2012, 01:16:06 PM
 #54

Let the man do what he likes. I'm fed up trying to dig up old threads that charted the problems faced from start to the end by using PayPal. You'll see an influx of 'buyers' when carders and bot networking people hear of your new site. And the rest would be history.

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May 01, 2012, 01:59:26 PM
 #55

Let the man do what he likes. I'm fed up trying to dig up old threads that charted the problems faced from start to the end by using PayPal. You'll see an influx of 'buyers' when carders and bot networking people hear of your new site. And the rest would be history.

I just don't want to see members of this forum get screwed if this exchange decides to cover their losses and take the money.

We've all seen it happen before, let's not pretend lol

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May 01, 2012, 02:14:31 PM
 #56

Let the man do what he likes. I'm fed up trying to dig up old threads that charted the problems faced from start to the end by using PayPal. You'll see an influx of 'buyers' when carders and bot networking people hear of your new site. And the rest would be history.

I just don't want to see members of this forum get screwed if this exchange decides to cover their losses and take the money.

We've all seen it happen before, let's not pretend lol

That wouldn't happen. Seriously Yankee? You don't like my plan so now you attack my character? I thought you of all people were better than that.

The second reason I have kept the maximum so low is because I want to have enough to cover any potential loss. Like I said, at most one transaction is what's gone. The profit I've made so far covers that. No one is going to get screwed. Period.
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May 01, 2012, 02:21:50 PM
 #57

Let the man do what he likes. I'm fed up trying to dig up old threads that charted the problems faced from start to the end by using PayPal. You'll see an influx of 'buyers' when carders and bot networking people hear of your new site. And the rest would be history.

I just don't want to see members of this forum get screwed if this exchange decides to cover their losses and take the money.

We've all seen it happen before, let's not pretend lol

That wouldn't happen. Seriously Yankee? You don't like my plan so now you attack my character? I thought you of all people were better than that.

The second reason I have kept the maximum so low is because I want to have enough to cover any potential loss. Like I said, at most one transaction is what's gone. The profit I've made so far covers that. No one is going to get screwed. Period.

Stop taking things so personally and being so sensitive.

I'm looking out for my fellow Bitcoiners. No offense to you, but I have no idea who you are. You can be Shakaru, Astana, Atlas, Tom, or anyone one of the scammers.

Nothing against you, but I have other priorities.

I have a moral and legal obligation to look out for my customers, many of whom can easily be scammed or have money stolen from.

Bitcoin pioneer. An apostle of Satoshi Nakamoto. A crusader for a new, better, tech-driven society. A dreamer.

More about me: http://CharlieShrem.com
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May 01, 2012, 02:29:12 PM
 #58

Let the man do what he likes. I'm fed up trying to dig up old threads that charted the problems faced from start to the end by using PayPal. You'll see an influx of 'buyers' when carders and bot networking people hear of your new site. And the rest would be history.

I just don't want to see members of this forum get screwed if this exchange decides to cover their losses and take the money.

We've all seen it happen before, let's not pretend lol

That wouldn't happen. Seriously Yankee? You don't like my plan so now you attack my character? I thought you of all people were better than that.

The second reason I have kept the maximum so low is because I want to have enough to cover any potential loss. Like I said, at most one transaction is what's gone. The profit I've made so far covers that. No one is going to get screwed. Period.

He is afraid that you might be one of those scammers like this one was :https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65097.0 .  I haven't bothered to look for more as I'm tired now.

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May 01, 2012, 02:38:36 PM
 #59

FIXED: New Bitcoin Exchange in town
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May 01, 2012, 02:51:29 PM
 #60


I can vouch for fake-exchange, I used it to get rid of my excess money. Transfered the money and never saw it again. Would highly recommend it.   Cheesy

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