Illegal Immigrants and Big Government

[Littleshop]

Maybe because it is Democrats that cater to illegal workers so that they would get their votes at the expense of tax paying Americans citizens who have the duties and obligations that illegals do not contribute to in any meaningful way.  Ever think of that?

I stop reading when I see the label "democrat' or "republican". More people should do this. Your point may be valid but if it is framed in partisanism you don't get it.

+1

Niether party is doing what is best for the country. 

Illegals greatly contribute to the economy by allowing small business access to cheap labor.  While illegals do commit crimes they do so at a lower rate then the average for fear that they will be deported. They help balance SS by contributing without drawing benefits.   

On the eastern shore of Maryland there is Still an ongoing labor shortage exasperated by government sting operations against farmers.   In this case the government is working against the economy and FOOD SECURITY.

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[Rassah]

I guess I got my question answered: racism, bigotry, nationalism, and jingoism are blinding.

[benjamindees]

"the Mexicans"

You know, misquoting me with condescending "scare quotes" doesn't really make me want to explain anything to you.  I'm not picking on Mexicans because I hate them, or because I'm racist.  I'm picking on Mexicans because it's an extremely accessible, modern example of complete across-the-board government failure that the "free market" would not necessarily have prevented.

Attempting to frame the debate the way most people in this thread have, with simplistic either-or scenarios buttressed by baseless emotional accusations and mindless political correctness, completely sidesteps the basic facts.  If you can't handle the facts of illegal immigration, don't make a thread about it and don't post in one.

In fact, it kind of makes me want to take a closer look at some of the other dumb things you've said.  For instance...

Ask a Mexican illegal about his love for government. Many feel powerless, that it's all just political bullshit and they're just trying to get by.

Can you think of a reason that most Mexicans are "just trying to get by?"  Have you really drank the Kool-Aid and believe that Mexicans are all just really hard-working and responsible and that if it weren't for the evil Mexican government, they would have stayed in Mexico and been hard working and responsible there?

I'll give you a hint:  Mexican immigrants to the US overwhelmingly have more children here than they would have if they had stayed in Mexico, which is still far beyond replacement.  Do you think you could extrapolate that into the future a few generations and take a guess at the reason that Mexico is bursting at the seams with impoverished, low-wage workers desperate to leave?

I mean, it doesn't require differential equations or anything.  It's just social science...

So because the Mexican government does bad things, the consequences are the fault of "the Mexicans", even unwilling individuals leaving the country?

Let's put it this way:  If you see the neighbor kid lighting matches in the back alley, and you decide to deed your house over to him and move a mile away, you can't claim to be less responsible when he burns down the neighborhood.  You're more responsible.

illegals... contribute to the economy

This is a tautology.  Can you say specifically what it is that illegals help to save?

Rassah, you don't seem to be interested in having a discussion.  You seem to be interested in throwing out some poorly-considered, one-sided assertions and then attacking anyone who doesn't agree with them, as though the brainfart in your OP were some sort of brilliantly insightful revelation you just had to share with the world.

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine.

[Rassah]

illegals... contribute to the economy

This is a tautology.  Can you say specifically what it is that illegals help to save?

Rassah, you don't seem to be interested in having a discussion.  You seem to be interested in throwing out some poorly-considered, one-sided assertions and then attacking anyone who doesn't agree with them, as though the brainfart in your OP were some sort of brilliantly insightful revelation you just had to share with the world.

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine.

My original question was in regards to how do those who rail against big government and government regulations reconcile the fact that the status of "legal" or "illegal" is defined by the government, and the government regulates whether we can employ or house illegals.
In respect to big government, regulations, and free markets, it doesn't matter what illegals contribute to the economy; just that they can, and no one should be able to make them not. Nor, of course, should anyone be forced to support them if they don't.
As for what they help to save, what do you mean by "save?"

[benjamindees]

My original question was in regards to how do those who rail against big government and government regulations reconcile the fact that the status of "legal" or "illegal" is defined by the government,

Then the simple answer is that this is not just a function of "big" government.  It's a function of even the smallest government:  to defend the populace against external threats.  And since global or universal governments are wildly impractical, that will not change any time soon.  But I'm not an anarchist, so I really can't tell you what those who rail against small government think.

and the government regulates whether we can employ or house illegals.

Yes, which is an unfortunate consequence of the particular wealth redistribution policies preferred in the US and other countries.  Yet as I pointed out, these policies favor immigrants by redistributing wealth away from natives and into the market.  So if you want to get rid of them, you'd probably end up with much less economic incentive to employ or house illegals anyways and the point would be near moot.  But, hey, I'm all for it.  It's just a bigger job than you think.

In respect to big government, regulations, and free markets, it doesn't matter what illegals contribute to the economy; just that they can, and no one should be able to make them not.

But they can also take away from the economy, which is the reason they are regulated.  And since, for completely undocumented immigrants, it takes at least a generation to determine whether they are likely to be a net gain or a net loss, they should be heavily regulated.

Nor, of course, should anyone be forced to support them if they don't.

Regardless of whether you are forced to support them, you are forced to compete with them.  And this has almost the exact same effect, potentially even a total race to the bottom in terms of living standards in the case of completely unrestrained immigration from actively malicious or totally failed foreign states.  But like I said, feel free to change this by starting with the biggest government of all, the FED.

As for what they help to save, what do you mean by "save?"

I mean what resources are saved?  That's what "economy" means -- savings.

You've been brainwashed by FED propaganda into believing that "economy" is synonymous with "consumption".  That's the official line.  It's built into the GDP.  That's how the talking heads can say with a straight face that spending, and debt, and warfare and immigration are all "good for the economy."  Well, they aren't.  That's nonsense and if you're going to repeat it, you should back it up.

[Explodicle]

Ad hominem attacks, the hallmark of a losing argument.

Rassah, you don't seem to be interested in having a discussion.  You seem to be interested in throwing out some poorly-considered, one-sided assertions and then attacking anyone who doesn't agree with them, as though the brainfart in your OP were some sort of brilliantly insightful revelation you just had to share with the world.

You've been brainwashed by FED propaganda

So please forgive me if when I read this...

You know, misquoting me with condescending "scare quotes" doesn't really make me want to explain anything to you.
...
In fact, it kind of makes me want to take a closer look at some of the other dumb things you've said.

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine.

... It looks an awful lot like this...

Wait a second. Now that I think about it some more, this isn't adding up... I'm wrong about something! But in a public discussion - how embarrassing! This makes me AAAAAANGRY! Time to take back the OFFENSIVE!

Face it, you're fighting against Mexican immigrants because of the actions of two governments - one that they don't want to be a part of, and one that will forcefully deport them if they speak up.

And you think Rassah is the brainwashed one.

[Rassah]

As for what they help to save, what do you mean by "save?"

I mean what resources are saved?  That's what "economy" means -- savings.

You've been brainwashed by FED propaganda into believing that "economy" is synonymous with "consumption". 

I'm genuinely curious where you got the idea that I believe such a thing? I believe that "economy" is "production." Not consumption, and definitely not "savings." What gave you the idea I thought that way?

[benjamindees]

I'm genuinely curious where you got the idea that I believe such a thing? I believe that "economy" is "production." Not consumption, and definitely not "savings." What gave you the idea I thought that way?

Oh, well in that case there's no such thing as net "production" in a free market or in most (all?) mixed-economies.  It's an illusion.  There are only different rates of consumption.