Purgatory

[Mr.Bitty]

I don't think Purgatory has been discussed.  For the first 1500 years, all Christians believed that souls which were not yet ready for Heaven went to a finishing school to become ready for Heaven.  My understanding is that only those who are evil are denied a second chance to Heaven.  Most of us aren't ready for Heaven after this life.  Perhaps Mother Theresa was, but most of us can be pretty selfish.

When Martin Luther broke from the Catholic Church, he removed the books from the Bible that most support the concept of Purgatory and taught that souls either go straight to Heaven or straight to Hell.  Catholic clergy Germany started selling indulgences against the orders of the Vatican. That was Luther's main complaint against the Catholic Church. I think Luther threw out the baby with the bath water when he did that.  Taking away the concept of Purgatory took hope from many grieving families.

After my sister was killed by a mass shooter, I investigated the concept of Purgatory.  I was concerned because she professed to be agnostic. After reading about Purgatory, I do believe that God gave her a second chance.  She wasn't evil.  She was a very good person.  I feel certain she didn't reject God or God's ways.  She seemed to live in harmony with the universe.

[1715189297]

1715189297

[Rigon]

Good news for sure.  Thats me.  Im a marine biologist and I just want to understand how things work.  I am an ecological detective.  I have put about 5000 hours into the BP spill thus far. I put coral reefs back together after they are hit by ships.  Im sure if this religion turns out to be real God could appreciate that.

[noviapriani]

First,  we need to get our facts straight....

Purgatory was never a part of early/ primitive Christian culture, and wasn't invented until about 1500 years AFTER the formation of The Holy Roman Church. And all it is is a "catholic cop-out" visa vie.....  If you die in a car crash on your way to confession, you have a second chance. That is a Catholic version of a,  "state of grace".
It is purley a religious invention with absolutley no basis in biblical scripture.
But, just like all the other religious BS available...  if it makes you feel better, then go for it. What have you got to lose ( except a whole lots of wasted emotional stress)?

[Rigon]

First,  we need to get our facts straight....

Purgatory was never a part of early/ primitive Christian culture, and wasn't invented until about 1500 years AFTER the formation of The Holy Roman Church. And all it is is a "catholic cop-out" visa vie.....  If you die in a car crash on your way to confession, you have a second chance. That is a Catholic version of a,  "state of grace".
It is purley a religious invention with absolutley no basis in biblical scripture.
But, just like all the other religious BS available...  if it makes you feel better, then go for it. What have you got to lose ( except a whole lots of wasted emotional stress)?

Hey...its just as valid as everything else ....or perhaps invalid was the term I was looking for.  But today Im going to behave like a christian and believe the bits that make me happy and reject the other parts as figurative.  I get a second chance if all this crap is right....yahoo!!!

[noviapriani]

First,  we need to get our facts straight....

Purgatory was never a part of early/ primitive Christian culture, and wasn't invented until about 1500 years AFTER the formation of The Holy Roman Church. And all it is is a "catholic cop-out" visa vie.....  If you die in a car crash on your way to confession, you have a second chance. That is a Catholic version of a,  "state of grace".
It is purley a religious invention with absolutley no basis in biblical scripture.
But, just like all the other religious BS available...  if it makes you feel better, then go for it. What have you got to lose ( except a whole lots of wasted emotional stress)?

Hey...its just as valid as everything else ....or perhaps invalid was the term I was looking for.  But today Im going to behave like a christian and believe the bits that make me happy and reject the other parts as figurative.  I get a second chance if all this crap is right....yahoo!!!

That is why modern religion is so convenient.  You just mke it up as you go along.  IF you don't like X, then get rid of it... if Y tastes bad... go with Z.....
..if you don't like one person's brand of "Heaven", then make-up your own!

[noviapriani]

After all, there is no guidebook on the subject. Even the Bible changes depending on how you want to read it. The Bible comes in all flavors, just pick one.

[umair127]

Actually if you follow the rules, there is only one interpretation...

the rules;

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[umair127]

there are more rules, but this is a general touching of them...

now if you don't do it the way it says, you're automatically in error.

And he basically states this, people can study but never understand...

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And probably the hardest part is you have to let it take you where it takes you, not where you want it to go...

and most do not wish to go there... they prefer it to be like Santa Claus...

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

So without the Holy Spirit, no matter what you do, how much you want it, you can never understand, it is the absolute impossibility.

Joh 6:44 No man is able to come to me if the Father who sent me does not give him the desire to come:

this is somewhat interesting, contrary to what a lot of doctrines teach that he came to save everyone...

anyway, with all that said, what happens after you die?

You're dead... your body returns to dust, you cease to exist, your memories perish with you...

numerous scriptures covering that.

[umair127]

But to understand what happens you have to study numerous subjects with the understanding of numerous other subjects to even begin to get a grasp of what happens.

John 3: 13 no one goes to heaven... only if you come from there can you go there... Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 3:19 state very plainly we come from the ground and we return to the ground...

this is the carnal... then there is the spiritual.

Unless there is a resurrection, then when we die, we are dead, cease to exist.

There are three resurrections.

First resurrection, is unto Christ, these are what would be known as the chosen, the called, the elect... lots of promises to these people, mainly, they will never suffer a second death.

1000 years later, comes the second resurrection, this is the resurrection of the dead unto judgment...

this is concerning this time period...

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Now how's that for confusing?

[noviapriani]

Actually if you follow the rules, there is only one interpretation...

the rules;

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That's the point and I are making is, there is no "rule" that says that we can't change the "rules" if we don't like them.
It's not like we're dealing with a scientific formula, or a testable theory in which, repeating the same experiment under the same conditions should always yield the same results.
You're talking about religious beliefs that have no more basis in reality than any other superstitious beliefs or fairy tale.

[umair127]

God doesn't judge any man, but his committed the judgment to Jesus, Jesus says I did not come to judge the world and then says for judgment I came to this world...

contradiction?

To be unlearned, absolutely a contradiction... and a lot of erroneous teaching over the centuries... basically God is not judging the world at this moment, but you can do things that bring judgment.

Christ did not come to judge the world, but he did come to judge his church.

Now the resurrection of the dead, God is going to judge them, but if he's basically not kept a record, how can he judge them?

You get to do it all over again... but the circumstances have changed. There will be no Satan and you will know there is a God and angels, you will see everything.

That's easy part...

the hard part, Jesus is the example, you will be compared to him, in essence you will have to live a life as he did without sinning, keeping all the wonderful rules.

If you don't pass the judgment, you die, the second death, from which there is no resurrection. You will cease to exist and your body will be cremated in the lake of fire.

If you pass the judgment, then basically you become a spiritual being, but you can still die if you break the rules...

third resurrection...

it is the resurrection to condemnation, by something you have done in this life, you have brought judgment upon yourself and there is no hope of forgiveness, there is no mercy, you have violated one of the core rules and are deemed completely unfit.

[noviapriani]

If you choose to place your faith in the above,noviapriani, then that's your choice. But,you are hardly in any position to claim that it's the only way to interpret it, especially since Purgatory isn't even a biblical convention.

[umair127]

Now the description of when this takes place is kind of interesting, the oceans have disappeared, the mountains melt, surface of the earth melts. These people are in human form, they cannot kill themselves, but as the earth is consumed in the fire, so are they until they die, they get to watch it happening, they know what is coming, they know there is no escape.

The description is basically the same as when our star enters the red giant stage and basically destroys this planet, the oceans disappear, the surface will melt. There is debate whether or not the earth is vaporized and consumed by the sun or if we will be far enough out or move far enough out to where the planet will actually survive this, but still the effects will be the same, the surface of this planet will be melted.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Now with some speculation, this one verse could take 5 billion years to complete...

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (Where everybody keeps the rules)

then what?

I mean after all this is said and done, then what?

Heb 1:2 But now at last, God sent his Son to bring his message to us. God created the universe by his Son, and everything will someday belong to the Son.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; (universe) and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[umair127]

And the promise to Abraham with the covenant, was eternal life, even though physical Israel was promised the land, spiritual Israel was promised the universe... which Abraham looked forward to.

Which I find the whole story to be absolutely fascinating, in the end, those who obey the rules, inherit the universe, get eternal life... will be able to travel at the speed of thought... want to go look at a galaxy, you're there that fast. Want to see the core of a star, you are there, want to get inside the event horizon of a blackhole, you are there...

but it does seem that unless you are willing to obey the rules, you cannot be allowed to do this.

Because right now the Scriptures describe numerous wars occurring in the heavens because there are those who do not want to obey the rules... so in essence there is a universal star wars going on right now...

now as long as this is, I haven't even scratched the surface, I could lay out scripture after scripture after scripture putting a lot of detail into it, the who what when where how and why... and it is fascinating.

The one thing I have found out about the Scriptures, they say a lot of things people don't think they say and they don't say a lot of things people think they say...

and as I pointed out in the beginning of this, the message, the story is a sentence here and sentence there spread out throughout the Scriptures and it is not in a chronological order and it is done this way so the vast majority cannot find it.

And even to get close to finding it, you need to understand a completely different culture that is absolutely foreign to the carnal (human) way of thinking...

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And it is absolutely impossible for the carnal mind to understand.

And actually it's not a bad thing, but it is the way it is.

[umair127]

Now as I said before I really don't care what people do, because I'm not going to be held responsible for what they do, everyone will be held responsible for what they have done... or have not done.

I guess one kind of final thought...

Coming up in the first or second resurrection gives a person hope at least, but I think a wise person would want to find out what a person would have to do or would not have to do in order to avoid the third resurrection, because that resurrection offers absolutely no hope.

It is the most brutal, it describes those that come up in that resurrection can see everything, understand everything and know that they will not have any part in it and they also see what is coming upon them... and the knowledge that they have brought it on themselves.

And universe means all things.

[Remember remember the 5th of November]

This is now a Supernatural thread

[Rigon]

This is now a Supernatural thread

lol good one....

[Mr.Bitty]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

 Actually, the concept of Purgatory dates back even before Christ.  Praying for the dead and their afterlife purification is found in history of Jews. 

"The descriptions and doctrine regarding purgatory developed over the centuries.[2] Advocates of belief in purgatory interpret Bible passages such as 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics), 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 16:19-26 and 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and Hebrews 12:29 as support for prayer for the dead, an active interim state for the dead prior to the resurrection, and purifying flames after death.[2] "


Medievalist Jacques Le Goff defines the "birth of purgatory", i.e. the conception of purgatory as a physical place, rather than merely as a state, as occurring between 1170 and 1200.[38] Le Goff acknowledged that the notion of purification after death, without the medieval notion of a physical place, existed in antiquity, arguing specifically that Clement of Alexandria, and his pupil Origen of Alexandria, derived their view from a combination of biblical teachings, though he considered vague concepts of purifying and punishing fire to predate Christianity.[39] Le Goff also considered Peter the Lombard (d. 1160), in expounding on the teachings of St. Augustine and Gregory the "Great, to have contributed significantly to the birth of purgatory in the sense of a physical place.

While the idea of purgatory as a process of cleansing thus dated back to early Christianity, the 12th century was the heyday of medieval otherworld-journey narratives such as the Irish Visio Tnugdali, and of pilgrims' tales about St. Patrick's Purgatory, a cavelike entrance to purgatory on a remote island in Ireland.[40] The legend of St Patrick's Purgatory (Tractatus de Purgatorio Sancti Patricii) written in that century by Hugh of Saltry, also known as Henry of Sawtry, was "part of a huge, repetitive contemporary genre of literature of which the most familiar today is Dante's";[41] another is the Visio Tnugdali. Other legends localized the entrance to Purgatory in places such as a cave on the volcanic Mount Etna in Sicily.[42] Thus the idea of purgatory as a physical place became widespread on a popular level, and was defended also by some theologians.

[Rigon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

 Actually, the concept of Purgatory dates back even before Christ.  Praying for the dead and their afterlife purification is found in history of Jews. 

"The descriptions and doctrine regarding purgatory developed over the centuries.[2] Advocates of belief in purgatory interpret Bible passages such as 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics), 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 16:19-26 and 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and Hebrews 12:29 as support for prayer for the dead, an active interim state for the dead prior to the resurrection, and purifying flames after death.[2] "


Medievalist Jacques Le Goff defines the "birth of purgatory", i.e. the conception of purgatory as a physical place, rather than merely as a state, as occurring between 1170 and 1200.[38] Le Goff acknowledged that the notion of purification after death, without the medieval notion of a physical place, existed in antiquity, arguing specifically that Clement of Alexandria, and his pupil Origen of Alexandria, derived their view from a combination of biblical teachings, though he considered vague concepts of purifying and punishing fire to predate Christianity.[39] Le Goff also considered Peter the Lombard (d. 1160), in expounding on the teachings of St. Augustine and Gregory the "Great, to have contributed significantly to the birth of purgatory in the sense of a physical place.

While the idea of purgatory as a process of cleansing thus dated back to early Christianity, the 12th century was the heyday of medieval otherworld-journey narratives such as the Irish Visio Tnugdali, and of pilgrims' tales about St. Patrick's Purgatory, a cavelike entrance to purgatory on a remote island in Ireland.[40] The legend of St Patrick's Purgatory (Tractatus de Purgatorio Sancti Patricii) written in that century by Hugh of Saltry, also known as Henry of Sawtry, was "part of a huge, repetitive contemporary genre of literature of which the most familiar today is Dante's";[41] another is the Visio Tnugdali. Other legends localized the entrance to Purgatory in places such as a cave on the volcanic Mount Etna in Sicily.[42] Thus the idea of purgatory as a physical place became widespread on a popular level, and was defended also by some theologians.

So who is correct?  Everyone?  Do you lilke the other parts of the Old testament as well?  If so, when can we get together and stone my neighbor for shaving his beard?

[Mr.Bitty]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

 Actually, the concept of Purgatory dates back even before Christ.  Praying for the dead and their afterlife purification is found in history of Jews. 

"The descriptions and doctrine regarding purgatory developed over the centuries.[2] Advocates of belief in purgatory interpret Bible passages such as 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics), 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 16:19-26 and 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and Hebrews 12:29 as support for prayer for the dead, an active interim state for the dead prior to the resurrection, and purifying flames after death.[2] "


Medievalist Jacques Le Goff defines the "birth of purgatory", i.e. the conception of purgatory as a physical place, rather than merely as a state, as occurring between 1170 and 1200.[38] Le Goff acknowledged that the notion of purification after death, without the medieval notion of a physical place, existed in antiquity, arguing specifically that Clement of Alexandria, and his pupil Origen of Alexandria, derived their view from a combination of biblical teachings, though he considered vague concepts of purifying and punishing fire to predate Christianity.[39] Le Goff also considered Peter the Lombard (d. 1160), in expounding on the teachings of St. Augustine and Gregory the "Great, to have contributed significantly to the birth of purgatory in the sense of a physical place.

While the idea of purgatory as a process of cleansing thus dated back to early Christianity, the 12th century was the heyday of medieval otherworld-journey narratives such as the Irish Visio Tnugdali, and of pilgrims' tales about St. Patrick's Purgatory, a cavelike entrance to purgatory on a remote island in Ireland.[40] The legend of St Patrick's Purgatory (Tractatus de Purgatorio Sancti Patricii) written in that century by Hugh of Saltry, also known as Henry of Sawtry, was "part of a huge, repetitive contemporary genre of literature of which the most familiar today is Dante's";[41] another is the Visio Tnugdali. Other legends localized the entrance to Purgatory in places such as a cave on the volcanic Mount Etna in Sicily.[42] Thus the idea of purgatory as a physical place became widespread on a popular level, and was defended also by some theologians.

So who is correct?  Everyone?  Do you lilke the other parts of the Old testament as well?  If so, when can we get together and stone my neighbor for shaving his beard?

The Old Testament is full of stories that tell the history of Judaism.  There's a lot to be learned from the history, but that doesn't mean that the laws of Moses for the Israelites traveling through a desert after escaping from slavery should be adopted by us today.