can non-residents get verified on MtGox?

[miernik]

My question is simple, I hope MagicalTux sees the post.

Can a non-resident get verified on MtGox?

If yes - how?

If not - why?

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[arby]

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20920158-aml-policies

[miernik]

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20920158-aml-policies

If there was an answer to my question there, I wouldn't ask it here. The page only talk about "proof of residence", but someone can not prove something that one does not have.

But users are allowed to open an account and withdraw 400 BTC per 24 hours without that "proof" however accessing the account from "public networks where more than one user have a shared IP address (Public school, University...)" will automatically force level 1 AML request. No one knows exactly the list of IP addresses that MtGox treats as such, so practically any IP address can trigger this.

So what does happen to a users without residence who accesses his account from a university computer or internet cafe? Does his balance get confiscated by MtGox?

I don't know about Japan, but in at least most countries of Europe its a crime to confiscate a persons money just because he doesn't have a "residence". Just because someone is homeless, it doesn't mean its allowed to rob him.

I am asking this question, as it appears there might be possible criminal activity going on by MtGox of confiscating funds of underprivileged people: homeless, "legally homeless", immigrants without established residency status, permanent travelers, people on a life-long round the world trip, people living under repressive governments who can't contact their government for help, etc. Such people are underprivileged and would most likely have no resources seek legal help against MtGox's illegal funds confiscation.

[arby]

Proof of residence, in my understanding means an Utility Bill of some sort. You do not have a gas bill, an electricity bill, a mobile phone bill in your name at that address? You live on campus, maybe ask for proof from the University? Are you squatting?

They usually block, not confiscate, the funds for AML as I have heard in the past, but I do not know, I tend to stay away from them. Many exchangers take advantage of people using AML issues, but only after the money is with them. They could easily return the funds to the account that was used to deposit them (btc, bank account, lr, etc.) and say 'we reserve the right to not do business with you'.

But then again, why not hold on to the funds for safe keeping, right?

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20920158-aml-policies

If there was an answer to my question there, I wouldn't ask it here. The page only talk about "proof of residence", but someone can not prove something that one does not have.

But users are allowed to open an account and withdraw 400 BTC per 24 hours without that "proof" however accessing the account from "public networks where more than one user have a shared IP address (Public school, University...)" will automatically force level 1 AML request. No one knows exactly the list of IP addresses that MtGox treats as such, so practically any IP address can trigger this.

So what does happen to a users without residence who accesses his account from a university computer or internet cafe? Does his balance get confiscated by MtGox?

I don't know about Japan, but in at least most countries of Europe its a crime to confiscate a persons money just because he doesn't have a "residence". Just because someone is homeless, it doesn't mean its allowed to rob him.

I am asking this question, as it appears there might be possible criminal activity going on by MtGox of confiscating funds of underprivileged people: homeless, "legally homeless", immigrants without established residency status, permanent travelers, people on a life-long round the world trip, people living under repressive governments who can't contact their government for help, etc. Such people are underprivileged and would most likely have no resources seek legal help against MtGox's illegal funds confiscation.

[miernik]

Proof of residence, in my understanding means an Utility Bill of some sort. You do not have a gas bill, an electricity bill, a mobile phone bill in your name at that address? You live on campus, maybe ask for proof from the University? Are you squatting?

No, I don't live on campus. I live in a variety of places. But that's not the issue, I am asking in general. People have many different situations. I don't indent to use MtGox anyway. But I ask for the sake of justice in the world and what might happen to others.

NOBODY should have their funds confiscated, even if he lives under a tree or in a tent in the wild (which I have done in the past also).

In many places (Scandinavian countries, I heard also Scotland) it is NOT in any way illegal to camp in the wild.

If a homeless person makes a transfer from a cash-transferring place to an account of a bank, and then the bank will say "we can't accept deposit if you don't have an address", the bank will NOT confiscate his funds, but give it back to him. He also may not be able to prove the source of funds, because it might be tips for playing in the street or picking wild berries in the forests and selling them. In Scandinavia picking wild berries in forests and selling them for cash without being registered anywhere is completely legal and completely TAX FREE. And you can make close to a 100 EUR a day if you're a good picker. After the whole summer I can have several thousand Euros (several thousand dollars). Legal, tax-free, being homeless with no papers, camping in the forests of Scandinavia, with no papers for the income. I deposit it to a bank, and they can't say a thing. In EU the threshold for having to ID yourself and explain source of funds is 15000 EUR! Up to that, a bank can't legally say anything even if I don't have a single piece of paper for my cash or my address. And you can feasibly in the long-term make a few thousand without papers and taxes (e.g. the berries, but there are other ways also).

So lets say I am homeless, go for the summer to the forests of Scandinavia, make several thousand Euros, go to a place which make wires when you hand in cash, make a wire to MtGox, login from a internet cafe to my account - which will trigger a AML1 request from MtGox. And then what? Will MtGox confiscate my money, or comply with EU law and release my legally made <15000 EUR money without papers? If they confiscate, where can I report them to a prosecutor or somebody? In Japan? Not speaking a word of Japanese?

[antares]

the point you are making is good.

but let me ask you a question... how do you get a bank account in the first place if you dont have neither an ID nor an address?(really out of curiosity)
at least here in germany you have to have both to just get an account. also they may ask for an ID for sums greater than 1.000 EUR

[miernik]

the point you are making is good.

but let me ask you a question... how do you get a bank account in the first place if you dont have neither an ID nor an address?(really out of curiosity)
at least here in germany you have to have both to just get an account. also they may ask for an ID for sums greater than 1.000 EUR

I am not talking about not having an ID! Our hypothetical Scandinavian forest living berry picker has a passport!

I am only talking about not having an address.

BTW: I have three accounts at three different German banks without having to show anything like a proof of address. Just some "contact" address where they can send mail. No "proofs" required. Although many German banks require proof of address in the form of a Anmeldebestätigung (Commerzbank, Deutsche Bank, etc...), many of the smaller ones do not. It is not a legal requirement, just banks policy. More to trust you (in the sense of "that you have money and can be successfully sued") if they want to give you loans, then "money laundering".

Think about it: actually anybody who would want to "launder" large amounts of money, would have no problem spending some of it on renting a flat where they won't even live, just just order some utilities and pay the bills. You don't have to actually live there, its just takes having some money to burn.

Its only the poor people who live somewhere "unofficially" that have a problem with address confirmation, and the only thing the "proof of address mania" does is discriminate against the underprivileged, and will not stop a single "money launderer".

[antares]

I agree. To be honest, when I was forced to verify my mtgox account(because they locked it without any reason and withheld over 2000 usd for more than 3 months from me), I had a similar problem as you. although I had a residency, I did not have any bills/proof of address. I ended up buying a prepaid sim card requesting a connection statement with it, scanned that and sent it to mtgox. that is kind of cheating, because you can give the phone company a made up address(I gave them my real address) and request the statement in-store, but I didnt care. Still, I'm really pissed at mtgox for their poor communication and locking up my funds. Especially their excuse(possible access of unauthorized users to my account) was lame, since I had a yubikey, which made unauthorized access impossible.

[miernik]

Especially their excuse(possible access of unauthorized users to my account) was lame, since I had a yubikey, which made unauthorized access impossible.

Very true, Yubikey users should be automatically AML1 verified with just a scan of passport, because MtGox has a proof of where they live already - because they sent the Yubikey somewhere, yes? And the user received it. They could send it with signature-required with return receipt (then the sender gets a sheet of paper signed by the person who picked it up) delivery for extra proof. That's much better proof then some "utility bills". What they do with the AML-utility-bill is all security-theater, snake oil.

Anyone can get a "fake" utility bill for sure if he throws a 100 Bitcoins at the problem, or usually much less. Just he'll advertise that you'll pay a persons bills for one month, provided they have the bills in their name - and the "money launderer" will surely have lots of proposals. If one has thousands worth of Bitcoins of stolen funds, he won't care too spend a hundred or two to unlock the rest of the loot.

But many normal users, who don't want to have their hard-earned money eaten by MtGox or for bribes or sourcing utility bills, are the ones who lose by this senseless security-theater MtGox's policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater

[antares]

at least my yubikey was delivered with a verification of the ID and a signature on one of those pdas DHL carries around.

and you dont really need to buy a fake ID - as I said, the prepaid sim thing works just fine, and is usually just around $10.

However, I think they nowadays require an apostille on those proof of address things.

What I learnd from my experience with gox: If they ever hold up on my money again without a reasonable explanation, I will close my account with them. especially the really long waiting period to get verified made me angry.

[miernik]

What I learnd from my experience with gox: If they ever hold up on my money again without a reasonable explanation, I will close my account with them. especially the really long waiting period to get verified made me angry.

Did they pay you interest for the time the account was locked?

To be fair, I think they should pay the user a compensation of 1% per each day the account is frozen.

Can a bank freeze accounts just like that?
I doubt that a bank can freeze an account without a court order. At least not for that long. Maybe for 48 hours.

Even the police if they "freeze" (arrest) someone, under suspicion of something, they can hold the person only for 48 hours, by that time they need to get a court order or release the person.

If my bank froze my account like that for more then 48 hours, I'd just report to the police or prosecutor.

When the next time MtGox freezes someone's account, any user should give them an ultimatum: you release my money within 48 hours of uploading my passport scan, or I report unlawful confiscation to a prosecutor.

The thing is, does a Japanese prosecutor accept reports in English? Maybe some biligual Japanese-English lawyer could set-up a business processing such things. And of course the lawyer costs paid by MtGox.

[sd]

The moral of this thread is that mtgox are pulling the same tricks paypal does. Don't deal with mtgox.