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Author Topic: Why Corporations are Good for the Poor!  (Read 2344 times)
Hawker
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May 08, 2012, 09:43:29 AM
 #21

35% corp+15% dividends+16% inflation = 66% and everybody is paying it, I don't care what accountant you use.  Plus, that lost as income tax and sales tax.  A corporation run as an individual, only pays income tax, which is like 25% after loopholes.

How the hell do you consider dividends a tax?

Romney pays about 80% tax.  Warren Buffet pays about the same.

You must be using some other number than tax divided by income to get those kinds of numbers.

dividend tax.  There is a tax on dividends.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dividend_tax
It comes after corporate income tax.  Romney also pay sales tax, tax on the workers known as income tax, tax on the materials and banks.

If you eliminate all those taxes Romney would take home 80% more.  The workers would also take home more.  The managers would take home more.  Only the violent ones like Robert Reich would lose out on all the money he steals.  What do you call someone who takes money for his union buddies and send students on vacation for 4 years.

As for inflation being 8%, the total amount of debt in the system in 1990 was $10.8 trillion.  Today it is $38.3 trillion (Z.1 - Debt Tables).   Debt is money.    You could buy a car for like $2000 in 1974.

Furthermore if you consider the whole pie of an average U.S. company.
The distribution is something like this
3% managers
40% workers and materials
55% government taxes
2% profits (Romney, Buffett, .. all make their money out of the 2%, with the 2% being 0% since 2000)




In most countries,  the corporation tax and the tax on dividends are combined and removed from your income tax bill.  I'm pretty sure that's how Romney is able to get his income tax rate down to 14%.

If you eliminate all the taxes you list, Romney would take home nothing.  He got rich by showing enterprise in a capitalist system were people with money are able to invest in people with ideas.  The legal infrastructure for this comes from taxes.  The educated staff, the roads, the lack of foreign invaders, the freedom to travel without armed guards, all these things come from taxes.  Take them away and Romney would be a dirt farmer in Mexico.

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May 08, 2012, 09:53:17 AM
 #22

He [Romney] got rich by showing enterprise in a capitalist system were people with money are able to invest in people with ideas.

Not quite.

Romney (Bain Capital) made his money by purchasing companies, racking up massive corporate debt in those companies and bleeding them dry, then terminating employeesjobs, then selling off most of the assets of those companies and closing them down because the creditors would not lend any more $ to the company, then declaring bankrupcy in those companies so the remaining assets were split amongst the creditors for pennies on the dollar.

He got rich by fucking everyone from the employees to the people who lent them credit.



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May 08, 2012, 10:03:24 AM
 #23

He [Romney] got rich by showing enterprise in a capitalist system were people with money are able to invest in people with ideas.

Not quite.

Romney (Bain Capital) made his money by purchasing companies, racking up massive corporate debt in those companies and bleeding them dry, then terminating employeesjobs, then selling off most of the assets of those companies and closing them down because the creditors would not lend any more $ to the company, then declaring bankrupcy in those companies so the remaining assets were split amongst the creditors for pennies on the dollar.

He got rich by fucking everyone from the employees to the people who lent them credit.





And that's how its meant to work.  You won't get rich by emulating Mother Theresa of Calcutta.  In Romney's case, he was the guy with ideas and he was able to offer guys with money a way to invest in him.  He got rich - his investors did too.  You can ask that he be a nice guy and care for the workers now that he is retired but when his job was to care for the shareholders, he did it right.

I think he gets a lot of unfair abuse just because he saw a big opportunity and took it.

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May 08, 2012, 10:12:37 AM
 #24

He [Romney] got rich by showing enterprise in a capitalist system were people with money are able to invest in people with ideas.

Not quite.

Romney (Bain Capital) made his money by purchasing companies, racking up massive corporate debt in those companies and bleeding them dry, then terminating employeesjobs, then selling off most of the assets of those companies and closing them down because the creditors would not lend any more $ to the company, then declaring bankrupcy in those companies so the remaining assets were split amongst the creditors for pennies on the dollar.

He got rich by fucking everyone from the employees to the people who lent them credit.





And that's how its meant to work.  You won't get rich by emulating Mother Theresa of Calcutta.  In Romney's case, he was the guy with ideas and he was able to offer guys with money a way to invest in him.  He got rich - his investors did too.  You can ask that he be a nice guy and care for the workers now that he is retired but when his job was to care for the shareholders, he did it right.

I think he gets a lot of unfair abuse just because he saw a big opportunity and took it.

The shareholders lost everything too.

The only ones who made any money was him and his partners.

Its not the way its supposed to work, although it was "legal".

I certainly couldnt have done it. Would never think of doing it. To treat you fellow man that way. He ruined alot of lives and was trusted because he promised to help those workers and those companies who needed some help, then stabbe dthem in the back.
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May 08, 2012, 10:22:56 AM
 #25

...snip...

The shareholders lost everything too.

The only ones who made any money was him and his partners.

Its not the way its supposed to work, although it was "legal".

I certainly couldnt have done it. Would never think of doing it. To treat you fellow man that way. He ruined alot of lives and was trusted because he promised to help those workers and those companies who needed some help, then stabbe dthem in the back.

He bought companies that were not competitive.  We know that because companies that are in good shape do not get sold to private equity vultures.  He proceeded to extract profit from these uncompetitive companies.  It may not have been done in a nice way, but there has never been a suggestion that he was dishonest or unethical let alone that he did anything illegal.

If you are going to exclude Romney for the way he did business, then you exclude all successful entrepreneurs and are left with a political class of lawyers and trust fund babies.

Is that really the best group of people to run a country?  Surely you need to cast the net wider and be willing to include people who have gotten their hands dirty?

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May 08, 2012, 12:19:59 PM
 #26

...snip...

The shareholders lost everything too.

The only ones who made any money was him and his partners.

Its not the way its supposed to work, although it was "legal".

I certainly couldnt have done it. Would never think of doing it. To treat you fellow man that way. He ruined alot of lives and was trusted because he promised to help those workers and those companies who needed some help, then stabbe dthem in the back.

He bought companies that were not competitive.  We know that because companies that are in good shape do not get sold to private equity vultures.  He proceeded to extract profit from these uncompetitive companies.  It may not have been done in a nice way, but there has never been a suggestion that he was dishonest or unethical let alone that he did anything illegal.

If you are going to exclude Romney for the way he did business, then you exclude all successful entrepreneurs and are left with a political class of lawyers and trust fund babies.

Is that really the best group of people to run a country?  Surely you need to cast the net wider and be willing to include people who have gotten their hands dirty?

There is right and wrong. Plain and simple. You cant explain it away or make it disappear no matter how much claptrap you type.

Legislation, or a lack thereof, does not define right and wrong.

You dont have to fuck anyone to be a successful entrepreneur. I do it every day. I am doing it right now, as are tens of millions of us here in the USA alone that do it everyday who do care about the people who allow us to succeed.

These are unnecessary abuses by greedy selfish people and they need to be put to task for those abuses.



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May 08, 2012, 01:04:02 PM
 #27

...snip...

There is right and wrong. Plain and simple. You cant explain it away or make it disappear no matter how much claptrap you type.

Legislation, or a lack thereof, does not define right and wrong.

You dont have to fuck anyone to be a successful entrepreneur. I do it every day. I am doing it right now, as are tens of millions of us here in the USA alone that do it everyday who do care about the people who allow us to succeed.

These are unnecessary abuses by greedy selfish people and they need to be put to task for those abuses.

So am I.  My customers and employees love me and I make what I consider great money from my hobby. 

But we both have to accept that there are people our there in rough trades, for example buying distressed companies, and making a ton of money by being ruthless in extracting value from them.  Provided they are honest, we should not disqualify them from trying to serve others in politics after they have quite their looting and pillaging in business.

I like Romney.  I would be the first to accept that his "The rich need more tax cuts" rhetoric is self-serving and that could well make him a bad candidate.  The fact that he is a self-made man from a tough industry does not make him a bad candidate.

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May 08, 2012, 01:27:09 PM
 #28

The very wealthy pay less tax by a percentage of their income than the workers.  The main tax that effects the rich is capital gains tax and which is much lower than income tax.

steelhouse
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May 08, 2012, 04:44:44 PM
 #29

The very wealthy pay less tax by a percentage of their income than the workers.  The main tax that effects the rich is capital gains tax and which is much lower than income tax.

People generally pay a payroll tax and an income tax in USA.
Romney pays payroll tax, corporate tax and dividend/cg tax.

You can eliminate the corporate tax, because corporations are not people.

But, if you look at your mining stock, if the laws apply to it like stocks on the NYSE.  Your dividend would be 35% smaller due to corporate tax.  Calling corporate profits a bond would not pass by the SEC.  The reality is the corporate tax is just a way for government to divide the business income tax such that it does not look like too big of a number.

They could lower the business income tax to 15% and raise Romneys tax to 35% and everyone would be happy.



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May 08, 2012, 05:08:51 PM
 #30

The very wealthy pay less tax by a percentage of their income than the workers.  The main tax that effects the rich is capital gains tax and which is much lower than income tax.

People generally pay a payroll tax and an income tax in USA.
Romney pays payroll tax, corporate tax and dividend/cg tax.

You can eliminate the corporate tax, because corporations are not people.

But, if you look at your mining stock, if the laws apply to it like stocks on the NYSE.  Your dividend would be 35% smaller due to corporate tax.  Calling corporate profits a bond would not pass by the SEC.  The reality is the corporate tax is just a way for government to divide the business income tax such that it does not look like too big of a number.

They could lower the business income tax to 15% and raise Romneys tax to 35% and everyone would be happy.

What that would be creating is a perverse incentive for companies not to pay dividends.  That's fine if its what you really want to do.  But there are sound reasons for treating dividend income and capital gains at the same rate. 

In short, dividends take cash out of the company.  There is no fudging a dividend - the cash has to be there.  Rewarding shareholder by increased stock values only creates an incentive to fudge things to make the company appear more valuable and there is no reality check for years. 

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May 08, 2012, 05:28:42 PM
 #31

35% corp+15% dividends+16% inflation = 66% and everybody is paying it, I don't care what accountant you use.  Plus, that lost as income tax and sales tax.  A corporation run as an individual, only pays income tax, which is like 25% after loopholes.

Besides all the other points you are obviously incorrect on, you do realize how very wrong it is to add together tax rates to find your total tax, right?
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May 08, 2012, 05:47:39 PM
 #32

The very wealthy pay less tax by a percentage of their income than the workers.  The main tax that effects the rich is capital gains tax and which is much lower than income tax.

People generally pay a payroll tax and an income tax in USA.
Romney pays payroll tax, corporate tax and dividend/cg tax.

You can eliminate the corporate tax, because corporations are not people.

But, if you look at your mining stock, if the laws apply to it like stocks on the NYSE.  Your dividend would be 35% smaller due to corporate tax.  Calling corporate profits a bond would not pass by the SEC.  The reality is the corporate tax is just a way for government to divide the business income tax such that it does not look like too big of a number.

They could lower the business income tax to 15% and raise Romneys tax to 35% and everyone would be happy.





Yes but bitcoins like gold are not taxed in the UK or the EU.  So as long as the dividend is in bitcoins or gold no tax on it.

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May 08, 2012, 07:54:21 PM
 #33

35% corp+15% dividends+16% inflation = 66% and everybody is paying it, I don't care what accountant you use.  Plus, that lost as income tax and sales tax.  A corporation run as an individual, only pays income tax, which is like 25% after loopholes.

Besides all the other points you are obviously incorrect on, you do realize how very wrong it is to add together tax rates to find your total tax, right?

Yes, they are approximations.  But, to say Romney pays less than 60% tax on corporate profits is a lie.  Since 2000, the average u.s. equity holder has paid about 120% in tax, as the price of the stocks adjusted for inflation have gone down, yet they still pay corporate tax and capital gains taxes.

Note, all profits come from a pie that is about 3% of the total revenues of a company.  California sales tax is higher.  The left honestly try to trick the public that the rich and corporations are making all the money.  The reality is it is the employees and government the takes almost all the profits and revenues.   This reality is the reason for the slow economic growth and high unemployment, and the new rise to sinister parties like nazism.

It may take you 20 years to realize this.  The best thing you can do to help the poor is cut government and education.
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May 08, 2012, 09:24:36 PM
 #34

35% corp+15% dividends+16% inflation = 66% and everybody is paying it, I don't care what accountant you use.  Plus, that lost as income tax and sales tax.  A corporation run as an individual, only pays income tax, which is like 25% after loopholes.

Besides all the other points you are obviously incorrect on, you do realize how very wrong it is to add together tax rates to find your total tax, right?

Yes, they are approximations.  But, to say Romney pays less than 60% tax on corporate profits is a lie.  Since 2000, the average u.s. equity holder has paid about 120% in tax, as the price of the stocks adjusted for inflation have gone down, yet they still pay corporate tax and capital gains taxes.

Note, all profits come from a pie that is about 3% of the total revenues of a company.  California sales tax is higher.  The left honestly try to trick the public that the rich and corporations are making all the money.  The reality is it is the employees and government the takes almost all the profits and revenues.   This reality is the reason for the slow economic growth and high unemployment, and the new rise to sinister parties like nazism.

It may take you 20 years to realize this.  The best thing you can do to help the poor is cut government and education.

Your heart is in the right place but you are so far wrong its laughable. Romney is not a liar or a tax evader.  He genuinely pays 14% tax.





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May 08, 2012, 11:58:29 PM
 #35

They should change the tax code.

We need to add corporate wage tax.  Set that at 20%.
Then you have payroll tax.  Set that at 15.3% uncapped.
Then you have corporate income tax. Set that at 35%.

Then end the IRS.


However, most taxes should go local, defense should be the only role of government. The ideal structure would be:

Corporate wage tax of 5%.
Payroll/Unemployment tax of 15.3% uncapped.
Corporate income tax. Set that at 20%.

Then end the IRS.
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