Why Corporations are Good for the Poor!

[steelhouse]

I was looking on the global stock exchange and found a company called  GIGAMINING.  Its price 1.581 and the weekly dividend is 0.02202454.  In the bitcoin world since it is all play imaginary tokens, there is no income tax, corporate tax, capital gains, or dividend tax.

But in the real world.  1st you pay sales tax, then the employees pay income tax, management also pay income tax, then you have business income.   Where does all this money go?  Mainly teachers and government workers that after benefits make $100K a year.  If you tax the workers more, the managers make less money.  However, if you tax the managers more, the workers also make less money.  You tax business income more both workers and managers make less.

So you go back to GIGAMINING.  I am going to neglect sales tax and income tax for the time being.  But that weekly dividend is earned business income.

So you have a .02202 dividend.  Now the business income tax is about 35% in the United States.  You dividend is now reduced to 0.0143.  Then after the corporate income tax you pay 15% on the dividend leaving you with 0.0122 dividend.  

Furthermore, if you are dealing with an inflationary currency, the value of the shares will also rise with inflation taking a capital gains hit.  Also, the company must use after taxed income to replenish cash reserves. These are probably bigger taxes than above and in the United States this inflation tax has averaged 8% over the last 30 years.  Since you must pay 8% on the cash you own and 8% on the stock inflation, you are effectively paying 16% additional tax.  This number comes off base corporate income too.   This leaves you with a dividend of 0.0082.

The reality is if the glbse was subject to the same laws as the nyse or nasdaq.  None of these mining companies would be formed!  The Corporations can't compete with individually owned companies.

The reality is Robert Reich, Paul Krugman, and Bernie Sanders are the reason why money is all going to the top.  The public corpration is being destroyed and all that is left are companies like "Panda Express" where the is only 1 owner.  Everybody else is the slave.  In the early days of bitmining there were people that owned large farms of bitminers.  That is the reality of these people - slavery!

Robert Reich wants you to be either a government worker or a slave.  All money moves to the top if you follow these planners.

[Hawker]

You really really need an accountant if you are paying 50% tax in the US.

I'm not kidding.  What you are doing may be legal but it sets a bad example for the rest of us.  Stop and get an accountant.

[Stephen Gornick]

In the bitcoin world since it is all play imaginary tokens, there is no income tax, corporate tax, capital gains, or dividend tax.

In which jurisdiction is this the case?  In the U.S., this certainly is not true.

[steelhouse]

35% corp+15% dividends+16% inflation = 66% and everybody is paying it, I don't care what accountant you use.  Plus, that lost as income tax and sales tax.  A corporation run as an individual, only pays income tax, which is like 25% after loopholes.

[FirstAscent]

Consider the scenario where corporations are taxed heavily and the super rich are taxed heavily, but the not super rich are taxed very little. Here's what happens:

Corporation receives revenue. Spends money on R&D to grow. Hires employees. Pays employees. Records $1 in profit. Basically pays nothing in taxes. Employees get all the standard write-offs, tax shelters, etc. and in reality don't pay nearly as much as you think.

The employees, making up the bulk of the population, then have disposable income. They go buy stuff, Stuff like what the corporation makes. The corporation has increased demand for its products. They grow. They don't layoff employees.

[Hawker]

35% corp+15% dividends+16% inflation = 66% and everybody is paying it, I don't care what accountant you use.  Plus, that lost as income tax and sales tax.  A corporation run as an individual, only pays income tax, which is like 25% after loopholes.

Mitt Romney pays 13% tax.  Warren Buffet pays less.  There may well be Americans paying 66% tax - I live in UK so have no way to prove otherwise - but they are people who haven't been able to afford accountants.

[steelhouse]

Consider the scenario where corporations are taxed heavily and the super rich are taxed heavily, but the not super rich are taxed very little. Here's what happens:

Corporation receives revenue. Spends money on R&D to grow. Hires employees. Pays employees. Records $1 in profit. Basically pays nothing in taxes. Employees get all the standard write-offs, tax shelters, etc. and in reality don't pay nearly as much as you think.

The employees, making up the bulk of the population, then have disposable income. They go buy stuff, Stuff like what the corporation makes. The corporation has increased demand for its products. They grow. They don't layoff employees.

People work at a corporation as a choice.  They use the capital of someone else to earn more income than they could themselves.  Otherwise they would have a family business or work at home.

That is not how it works.  You can go to the GLBSE and just look at the IPOs.  Take RSM, you can buy shares at 0.40.  This buys the equipment and cards.  Yes, once all the equipment is bought the union thugs and the managers can steal the company, like they did at GM.  

What you are advocating is once RSM gets their equipment, they stop paying the dividend and the guy take all the equipment for his family and friends.  an employee is not all that important they can easily be replaced.  Then they use the profits for himself, building the economy.   What about all the investors most poor that put their money in the company hoping for a profit.  To buy a bike for Christmas for their kids.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  Capital will dry up, nobody will invest anymore because the semi-retarded teachers, employees that have no stake in the company,  and loser Robert Reich will steal it for himself.  Unemployment rises and the only solution is to tax more.  The only solution is for Reich to beg or steal more from the Koch brothers (the real earners) then take credit for how well they run the government.

[steelhouse]

35% corp+15% dividends+16% inflation = 66% and everybody is paying it, I don't care what accountant you use.  Plus, that lost as income tax and sales tax.  A corporation run as an individual, only pays income tax, which is like 25% after loopholes.

Mitt Romney pays 13% tax.  Warren Buffet pays less.  There may well be Americans paying 66% tax - I live in UK so have no way to prove otherwise - but they are people who haven't been able to afford accountants.

Romney pays about 80% tax.  Warren Buffet pays about the same.  Since 2000, Romney most likely has lost money, yet has paid tax on capital gains that increased due to inflation.  Thus Romney since 2000 has paid infinite tax.

We should tax homes as investments.

[matthewh3]

Consider the scenario where corporations are taxed heavily and the super rich are taxed heavily, but the not super rich are taxed very little. Here's what happens:

Corporation receives revenue. Spends money on R&D to grow. Hires employees. Pays employees. Records $1 in profit. Basically pays nothing in taxes. Employees get all the standard write-offs, tax shelters, etc. and in reality don't pay nearly as much as you think.

The employees, making up the bulk of the population, then have disposable income. They go buy stuff, Stuff like what the corporation makes. The corporation has increased demand for its products. They grow. They don't layoff employees.

People work at a corporation as a choice.  They use the capital of someone else to earn more income than they could themselves.  Otherwise they would have a family business or work at home.

That is not how it works.  You can go to the GLBSE and just look at the IPOs.  Take RSM, you can buy shares at 0.40.  This buys the equipment and cards.  Yes, once all the equipment is bought the union thugs and the managers can steal the company, like they did at GM.  

What you are advocating is once RSM gets their equipment, they stop paying the dividend and the guy take all the equipment for his family and friends.  an employee is not all that important they can easily be replaced.  Then they use the profits for himself, building the economy.   What about all the investors most poor that put their money in the company hoping for a profit.  To buy a bike for Christmas for their kids.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  Capital will dry up, nobody will invest anymore because the semi-retarded teachers, employees that have no stake in the company,  and loser Robert Reich will steal it for himself.  Unemployment rises and the only solution is to tax more.  The only solution is for Reich to beg or steal more from the Koch brothers (the real earners) then take credit for how well they run the government.

RSM is run by me a one man band.  We pay no tax as this is a hobby and all conducted in BTC.  In the UK the only BTC tax you would pay is capital gains tax on the BTC you convert to GBP.  If we expand enough I will take on staff and they will be paid in shares or BTC which currently in the UK BTC alone or shares valued in BTC are not taxed.  Otherwise if the company couldn't continue all the FPGA hardware would be sold and paid in one big dividend to share holders.

[jamesg]

I was looking on the global stock exchange and found a company called  GIGAMINING.  Its price 1.581 and the weekly dividend is 0.02202454.  In the bitcoin world since it is all play imaginary tokens, there is no income tax, corporate tax, capital gains, or dividend tax.

It's not a stock, it a bond. A bond is debt.

So you go back to GIGAMINING.  I am going to neglect sales tax and income tax for the time being.  But that weekly dividend is earned business income.

So you have a .02202 dividend.  Now the business income tax is about 35% in the United States.  You dividend is now reduced to 0.0143.  Then after the corporate income tax you pay 15% on the dividend leaving you with 0.0122 dividend.  

No one owns any part of my company but me. A bond is debt. I pay interest payments (coupons) on this debt. Any business can pay it's debts as expenses before paying income taxes.

steelhouse, please get your facts straight before posting this stuff.

[steelhouse]

gigavps, but what you are talking about is a tax loophole in what is all basically corporate income.  I thought I knew it all, but you are correct all debt is taken out as an expense.  Thus, every corporation could issue a bond with each share, such that all gross corporate profit is distributed to shareholders/bondholders as a bond payment.  However, I am sure for the NASDAQ or NYSE you are breaking some sort of law.  Furthermore you don't have to perform the sarbanes-oxley and other type of record keeping that is putting incredible burden on corporations.

Do you know of any pre-tax bonds indexed to profits (inflation) that pertain to U.S. equities like Catepillar?

matthewh3, thanks for the info always wondered what happens in the end. 

But, the point of this thread is still valid.  If the GLBSE was a real exchange, you would not be getting a dividend.  You would be paying it all to corrupt politicans and corrupt corporate insiders looking to pay their bloated salaries.

[Enkel]

Where are you getting 16% inflation?  The current US inflation rate is about 2.5%

Also, bitcoin transactions/income are taxable.  They are not different than any other barter income.  And you do have to report barter income on tax returns.

Also, paying obligations (bonds) is an expense, not a 'loophole' as you call it.

Home are taxed as investments.  It is called capital gain/loss on the sale of a home.

[steelhouse]

The 2.5% inflation includes productivity, population growth, use of the dollar by Somalia, Argentina, and other countries.  However, the increase in the national debt year-over-year has averaged 8% over the past 30 years.  Furthermore, many believe the inflation numbers are doctored, especially this year.  Especially since they removed gas from the equation (everyday price index).  In the long run all the national debt will translate into mortgage and consumer debt as soon as we reach the tipping point imho.

Now consider 8% as the long-term inflation rate, which it has to be since all federal and commercial bank debt is money.   Long-term the inflation rate has average 6% over 30 years.  But we are in recession and when employment hits, based on the "phillips curve" inflation will also hit.  Shadowstats puts the inflation number at 10% based on 1980 methodology.  

All corporations must hold cash for operations and for a rainy day.  Thus, they generally hold enough cash for a couple years. aapl has $110 billion in cash, and increased that by $12.6 billion.  If inflation is 10%, aapl loses $11 billion to inflation a year, or roughly a 25% hit to earned income.

Thus, for aapl it might be 30% or so.  But on average it is 15% or so.  Lost due to the government spending beyond the budget.

BTW, if you have $200,000 in investment and earn $20,000 in returns.  You most likely lost money considering inflation, dividend, and capital gains taxes.

The 99% have picked the wrong villian, it is not Mitt Romney!  It is Obama.  Obama could have supported the Japan system on health care and cut costs 75% for all and increase the nations life expectancy 6 years.  The Japan system is basically a low-cost fee schedule for every procedure.  Try $50 office visits and procedures that cost $1500 in US, might cost $200 in Japan.

[Hawker]

...snip...

Now consider 8% as the long-term inflation rate, which it has to be since all federal and commercial bank debt is money.   Long-term the inflation rate has average 6% over 30 years.  

...snip...

What country had an average inflation of 6% in the last 30 years?  By 1982, Volkner had squeezed inflation out of the US system and it hasn't come back.

[FreeMoney]

...snip...

Now consider 8% as the long-term inflation rate, which it has to be since all federal and commercial bank debt is money.   Long-term the inflation rate has average 6% over 30 years.  

...snip...

What country had an average inflation of 6% in the last 30 years?  By 1982, Volkner had squeezed inflation out of the US system and it hasn't come back.

No inflation since 1982? That's longer than I've been alive and I'm sure the price level is higher than when I started buying things.

[Hawker]

...snip...

Now consider 8% as the long-term inflation rate, which it has to be since all federal and commercial bank debt is money.   Long-term the inflation rate has average 6% over 30 years.  

...snip...

What country had an average inflation of 6% in the last 30 years?  By 1982, Volkner had squeezed inflation out of the US system and it hasn't come back.

No inflation since 1982? That's longer than I've been alive and I'm sure the price level is higher than when I started buying things.

Doh! Of course there is inflation but not 6%.

[Etlase2]

Shadowstats puts the inflation number at 10% based on 1980 methodology.  

Correction: Shadowstats puts the inflation number at 10% based on bullshit.

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/12/james-hamilton-on-shadowstats-and-niall-fergusons-claim-that-true-inflation-is-more-than-10-per-year.html
http://voxrationalis.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/the-absurdity-of-shadowstats-inflation-estimates/

etc. ad nauseum

if inflation is 10%, prices double every 7 years. this is clearly not the case. please have some sense and realize that wild and crazy claims might just not be true.

[compro01]

35% corp+15% dividends+16% inflation = 66% and everybody is paying it, I don't care what accountant you use.  Plus, that lost as income tax and sales tax.  A corporation run as an individual, only pays income tax, which is like 25% after loopholes.

How the hell do you consider dividends a tax?

Romney pays about 80% tax.  Warren Buffet pays about the same.

You must be using some other number than tax divided by income to get those kinds of numbers.

[Hawker]

35% corp+15% dividends+16% inflation = 66% and everybody is paying it, I don't care what accountant you use.  Plus, that lost as income tax and sales tax.  A corporation run as an individual, only pays income tax, which is like 25% after loopholes.

How the hell do you consider dividends a tax?

Romney pays about 80% tax.  Warren Buffet pays about the same.

You must be using some other number than tax divided by income to get those kinds of numbers.

You are wasting your time.  Steelhouse has no idea how accounts work.  The poor sap thinks Romney is lying when he says his tax percentage is 14%. 

[steelhouse]

35% corp+15% dividends+16% inflation = 66% and everybody is paying it, I don't care what accountant you use.  Plus, that lost as income tax and sales tax.  A corporation run as an individual, only pays income tax, which is like 25% after loopholes.

How the hell do you consider dividends a tax?

Romney pays about 80% tax.  Warren Buffet pays about the same.

You must be using some other number than tax divided by income to get those kinds of numbers.

dividend tax.  There is a tax on dividends.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dividend_tax
It comes after corporate income tax.  Romney also pay sales tax, tax on the workers known as income tax, tax on the materials and banks.

If you eliminate all those taxes Romney would take home 80% more.  The workers would also take home more.  The managers would take home more.  Only the violent ones like Robert Reich would lose out on all the money he steals.  What do you call someone who takes money for his union buddies and send students on vacation for 4 years.

As for inflation being 8%, the total amount of debt in the system in 1990 was $10.8 trillion.  Today it is $38.3 trillion (Z.1 - Debt Tables).   Debt is money.    You could buy a car for like $2000 in 1974.

Furthermore if you consider the whole pie of an average U.S. company.
The distribution is something like this
3% managers
40% workers and materials
55% government taxes
2% profits (Romney, Buffett, .. all make their money out of the 2%, with the 2% being 0% since 2000)