Ready to admit bitcoin is a failure?

[sublime5447]

I know I am telling the congregation that Jesus was just a man.. when I say bitcoin is a failure in this forum, but was hoping there would be a few people who could see the light.

First, I agree with you that Jesus was just a man. Just a regular religious jew in fact who adhere to judaism that led a movement to overthrow the Roman empire that somehow turned into what we know now as christianity but has never in his entire lifetime preached christianity or even know what the heck is christianity but judaism which is his original religion and nothing more. But I digress. Something that is a failure means no one wants anything to do with and would likely be forgotten and buried and moved on to other things. Apple Lisa was a failure. Microsoft Zune was a failure. Nokia N-gage was a failure. THQ uDraw was a failure. Bitcoin? Infrastructure is expanding, merchants are adopting, VCs are investing, people are buying, how can that be possibly be categorized as a failure?

"Infrastructure is expanding, merchants are adopting, VCs are investing, people are buying, how can that be possibly be categorized as a failure?"

 Merchants adopt to get the press coverage but their sales are pathetic, VC are not investing at least not for the last 10 months those guys make money not through it down a hole, Fools might be buying but I doubt it no one wants an asset that loses 60 percent of its value in a few months

   https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-usd?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

[vancsj]

stop.. Just stop.. How the he'll could you expect anyone to short sell 51% of any currency? Selling 5% of any coin, maybe even bitcoin would crush the markets to zero.. Then you got everyone else selling too.. Don't be stupid if you tried that with nxt it would probably cost you more than the entire marketcap of nxt in loses. You would have to drive the price up by probably an order of magnitude and then dump it to zero.. No one in their right mind would do that or even have the money to do it. By the time pos is a threat to fiat it would probably be impossible for even the US government. Then you have to ask, would 51% even be up for sale? How do you know you could even acquire over 50% of staking coins?

There are other ways to acquire a lot of coins. Imagine what would happen if one or two large exchanges decided to attack a pos coin?
The chance of successful attack can be small, but that doesn't mean we can ignore it.

BTW you've no idea how the coins are distributed among people, have a look at this :
http://bitinfocharts.com/en/top-100-richest-ppcoin-addresses.html

The top 26 addresses have 42% of all ppc, and we don't know whether they belong to 26 people.  What if someday they decided that ppc is not good enough for them? They can easily destroy ppc.

For pos coins, coins == power, the rich guys make the rules and you obey. You want to participate in the game? PAY THEM to get more coins.
In the case of POW coins, you never need to pay the rich guys to participate in the game.

So to be honest, I tend to take POS 'coins' as shares, POW coins are real coins.

[sublime5447]

2. The Abundance Model. A promise of something specific from someone specific made valuable by its redemption in real production. The value of this type of money is defined by the promised redemption in goods and/or services. As such, this type of money is promises of an indefinite number of non-uniform commodities in indefinite supply and, unlike the limited quantity "coin" concept of money, the total quantity of these credits in circulation does not affect their value, because the value of a credit is defined by what its issuer will redeem it for in real goods and/or services. Examples are: business-to-business barter credits, customer rewards, travel points, discount coupons, mutual credit systems.

I hope you aren't presenting this as a superior option. This type of money is not fungible and therefore completely vulnerable to censorship.

If you read the proposal it is fungible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyWfUqEyIZc

http://www.moneyasdebt.net/

Money Power In You
E.C Riegel, Private Enterprise Money, 1944

"There is a treasure buried in your consciousness. If you will dig it up from the debris of superstition and fear that covers it you will gain a freedom and self-mastery that will lift your life to a higher plane. This is the money power in you.

The power to create money with which to purchase wealth, health and happiness actually lies dormant within you. You have thought of the money power as something remote from you and beyond your grasp. You have dreamed of the good you could and would do if you had money power. You have blamed others for not accomplishing this good. You have blamed them for evil economic and political conditions; for unemployment, for poverty, for crime, for war.

It is quite logical to blame these maladies upon the malfunction of the money power, but you have not suspected that the money power resides in you and because of your failure to exert it the world is afflicted with miseries. You have the power; you have the responsibility. The power and responsibility to banish poverty, unemployment, insecurity, misery and war rests entirely with you.

You, in cooperation with other intelligent persons, can drive economic and political evils further and further from the area of your life and ultimately they may be driven from the face of the earth. You can do this by the money power in you, expressed first in your own prosperity and happiness, and radiating to others. You can do it and you must do it. There is no power outside of you that can bring these blessings to you.

Petitioning the Government is like writing to Santa Claus. You need no laws — there is a law, a natural law that governs your money power. You need no government aid. You need only cooperation with and from persons who, like you, have resolved to exert the money power inherent in us all. This power in each of us needs only the recognition and respect of our fellows to spring forth and exert its blessings.

We need not petition Congress and we need not waste time to denounce bankers, for they can neither help nor hinder our natural right to extend credit to each other, and this is the perfect basis for a money system."

[nuff]

I know I am telling the congregation that Jesus was just a man.. when I say bitcoin is a failure in this forum, but was hoping there would be a few people who could see the light.

First, I agree with you that Jesus was just a man. Just a regular religious jew in fact who adhere to judaism that led a movement to overthrow the Roman empire that somehow turned into what we know now as christianity but has never in his entire lifetime preached christianity or even know what the heck is christianity but judaism which is his original religion and nothing more. But I digress. Something that is a failure means no one wants anything to do with and would likely be forgotten and buried and moved on to other things. Apple Lisa was a failure. Microsoft Zune was a failure. Nokia N-gage was a failure. THQ uDraw was a failure. Bitcoin? Infrastructure is expanding, merchants are adopting, VCs are investing, people are buying, how can that be possibly be categorized as a failure?

"Infrastructure is expanding, merchants are adopting, VCs are investing, people are buying, how can that be possibly be categorized as a failure?"

 Merchants adopt to get the press coverage but their sales are pathetic, VC are not investing at least not for the last 10 months those guys make money not through it down a hole, Fools might be buying but I doubt it no one wants an asset that loses 60 percent of its value in a few months

   https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume-usd?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

Considering the price was just $124 exactly one year ago  it has gained almost 325% I don't know how you can call that losing. You must be a troll

[bank of bits]

"You can kill a man,(Satoshi -Bitcoin) but you can't kill an idea."

[Oscilson]

stop.. Just stop.. How the he'll could you expect anyone to short sell 51% of any currency? Selling 5% of any coin, maybe even bitcoin would crush the markets to zero.. Then you got everyone else selling too.. Don't be stupid if you tried that with nxt it would probably cost you more than the entire marketcap of nxt in loses. You would have to drive the price up by probably an order of magnitude and then dump it to zero.. No one in their right mind would do that or even have the money to do it. By the time pos is a threat to fiat it would probably be impossible for even the US government. Then you have to ask, would 51% even be up for sale? How do you know you could even acquire over 50% of staking coins?

There are other ways to acquire a lot of coins. Image what would happen if one or two large exchanges decided to attack a pos coin?
The chance of successful attack can be small, but that doesn't mean we can ignore it.

BTW you've no idea how the coins are distributed among people, have a look at this :
http://bitinfocharts.com/en/top-100-richest-ppcoin-addresses.html

The top 26 addresses have 42% of all ppc, and we don't know whether they belong to 26 people.  What if someday they decided that ppc is not good enough for them? They can easily destroy ppc.

For pos coins, coins == power, the rich guys make the rules and you obey. You want to participate in the game? PAY THEM to get more coins.
In the case of POW coins, you never need to pay the rich guys to participate in the game.

So to be honest, I tend to take POS 'coins' as shares, POW coins are real coins.

If a coin has both PoS and PoW, is it more difficult to attack?

[Meuh6879]

Just wondering how many people are ready to admit that it isn't gonna have main stream adoption?

bitcoin not working.
it will work when people need it ...

i'm not the people.
i read the law and read information from my country.

so ?
when people migrate to bitcoin ... well, i'm transform in an early adopter.

and trust me, P2P system is not complicated.
people, after 5 years known the term utorrent or emule ... napster, kazaa, morpheus, vuze, bitcomet, etcs ... like click on Mozilla Firefox.

people evolve by hard and fast process : the hole of lack of help.
when banks crashs ... they will evolve.

 

[Kprawn]

Well bitcoin is not failing, the use of bitcoin is currently problematic.

1. Merchants accept bitcoin as payment option, but include no incentive for consumers to adopt it. Whatever BTC they get are converted to fiat.
2. Bitcoin hoarders go on spending spree's to support new merchants adopting the currency and flood the exchanges, pushing the price down.
3. In most countries it's too difficult to buy bitcoins. {ATM's only availlable in big cities}
4. Most of the mayor bitcoin buying, that can push the price up, are not done on exchanges. {The price of bitcoin are determined on exchanges}

So making small changes, can make a huge difference.

1. Merchants accepting BTC only have to start introducing discounts on products that are in high demand. {People would start to use bitcoin for lower prices}
2. Hoarders should do what they do best... "Hoard" and resist buying things on impulse.
3. Consumers should be able to buy BTC anywhere. {Build technology into POS systems, so that people can buy BTC at shop counters at the till, like they buy airtime}
4. People should not avoid exchanges. {Yes the requirement to validate your identity at the exchange is ridiculous, but at some point, you should push some coins there}

This will have a mayor influence.
 

[exocytosis]

I'm ready to admit it.

[johncarpe64]

Just wondering how many people are ready to admit that it isn't gonna have main stream adoption?

I want to talk about why and what can be changed to fix bitcoin, but first we have to admit there is a problem.   

Why concede defeat when we've only just begun? The mainstream population needs more incentive to use bitcoin. Give it time. If you haven't noticed, the infrastructure is being built.

"Build it and they will come".

I agree with this statement.

[vancsj]

If a coin has both PoS and PoW, is it more difficult to attack?

I've not considered that before...but my first reaction is no;)

[digitalindustry]

Just wondering how many people are ready to admit that it isn't gonna have main stream adoption?

I want to talk about why and what can be changed to fix bitcoin, but first we have to admit there is a problem.   

everything is perfect protocol and code wise. 

we just need the central authority and the global ID system, then it's totally complete.

we can call the Central authority something, something "consensus" 

ID system will be a "safety verification system"  to protect kids from pedophiles etc,

who doesn't want to do that?

basically if you don't support the verification system you support pedophiles.



* only sick people would want to support and protect pedophiles.

[digitalindustry]

It's the decentralized thing we are talking about. Although there are groups advocating pos, i don't think we can implement it just like that. Plus not many would agree to pos. So how do we fix the decentralized issue and still maintain the hash rate

I personally think bitcoin has much more systemic issues than the way it is mined. I think you solve the decentralization issue by taking away the financial incentive to controlling the network and supply of coins. 

you realize Quark solved all of this 12 months ago don't you?

test my tiny knowledge on this, i don't have to write as its conveniently been written a 100 times.

[johnyj]

I found this chart to be the best description of bitcoin's use so far, everyone would understand without difficulty

[the joint]

Bitcoin is inherently deflationary on the final equation, the price can only go up

and most us dont actually just think of price when Bitcoin

only when you are buying other interesting alternatives, like Monero.

100% wrong.  There is nothing about a deflationary currency that guarantees anything about the price.

[Meuh6879]

* only sick people would want to support and protect pedophiles.

Only sick people use technology to judge and kill.
Named now : the drones.
Other word is genocid.

[sublime5447]

I found this chart to be the best description of bitcoin's use so far, everyone would understand without difficulty

The dollar being shit isnt a defense of bitcoin being shit. Do the same chart over the last 10 months, fuck do it over the last 2 months, The dollar is up and bitcoin is way down.

[Ektra]

100% wrong.  There is nothing about a deflationary currency that guarantees anything about the price.

Just to clear this up, deflationary currency is worth more vs goods over time, that's the definition. 2014 has been an inflationary year for bitcoin. Increasing money supply does not in and of itself guarantee inflation, and neither does having a fixed supply guarantee deflation.

[bitllionaire]

a failure?
you kidding?
there is a technology in betatest which is expanding really fast
no failure I think

[sublime5447]

100% wrong.  There is nothing about a deflationary currency that guarantees anything about the price.

Just to clear this up, deflationary currency is worth more vs goods over time, that's the definition. 2014 has been an inflationary year for bitcoin. Increasing money supply does not in and of itself guarantee inflation, and neither does having a fixed supply guarantee deflation.

Smarter than most around here. Realizes that inflation/deflation is a function of both supply and DEMAND!