Proof of market (POM)

[Frangomel]

To be serious here...POM is another strategy of doing things and it is proof of market. People who doesnt do economics do not understand it but that term is existing in our activities and means strategy concepts with measurable indexes. So sorry people, proof stays in other social flows not just in cryptos

[HunterMinerCrafter]

Proof is written in marketing plan When time pass it will be proof like in POW and POS, it is not proof till time pass

No, a plan is written in the marketing plan.  After time passes, we will know if it was a good plan and came to fruition or if it was a bad plan and failed miserably.  At no point will anything written there suddenly become a proof.

Proofs are not affected by the passing of time.  A proof either holds eternally or not at all.  If you have something you call a proof and then some time passes and you discover that it does not hold as a proof, then it never was a proof to begin with.

You can trust me or not

Precisely.  "Just trust me" is not a valid assertion step in a proof.  If it were, "one plus one equals five because just trust me" would stand valid as a proof, and we obviously can't have that.  "Frangomel is an asshole because just trust me" does not make you an asshole.  "Our coin will be valuable on the market because just trust me" does not prove anything about your coin, the market, or anything else at all and this is precisely the problem.

In my experience those who resort to "just trust me" as their justification for their "proof" instead of simply retracting their claim have all had nefarious intent.  If you're really going to fall back to "just trust me" and then ask for our money, you're going to be labelled a "scammer" so fast that it will make your head spin, regardless of your actual intent.

and you can watch on our work which was passed and see what we did and what we will proof on market related to marketing plan!

You can collect as much evidence as you want but until you can infer, in an independently reproducible way, the conclusion from that evidence you have not structured any proof.  All you will have is evidence of correlation, no hard proof.

Phylosophy is not reality,

No, it is only the study of it.  This is precisely the concern.  You want to point to some potential future reality and say your proof can be found there.  I want to study the actualized reality that we're stuck in here.  Your potential future reality holds no proofs to be found, those can only be found in actual reality.  You know, this one.  Where we are right now.  Are you familiar with it?

lets make it easy to understand 1+1 = 2 or not what is proof you are speaking about your things without permission to accept another things! That is unfortunately your problem, not mine

Huh?  No idea what you're trying to say there.  I'm speaking about things that are inherently "ours."  Reality is, unfortunately, forced upon us as a shared construct.  We're both stuck here in it.  You are making some claims about it that don't jive with the notions the rest of us have about it.  Our notions can be measured directly within that reality, and we call those measures "proofs."  You're talking about some thing that does not seem able to be connected to that reality by any measure and calling it a fact.  This is unreasonable behavior to begin with, but to explicitly label it as rational is simply offensive.

look at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW2DFz9VaoE (it says proof in the video), but I know that 1+1=2 I will give my hand for that proof

Lots of people claim lots of things as proof.  At least he knew how to structure a proof, even if his proposed proof doesn't hold as a proof because of the logical inconsistencies of (among other other things) division by zero. At least he "made the right motions" in starting from something to be proven and working systematically to some conclusion.  His system was logically inconsistent so his conclusion can not be taken as factual and his writings can not be called proof, but he was at least going about the practice of trying to prove.  He just failed.

You aren't even carrying out the practice of trying to prove, and yet still claim to hold some proofs.  Absurdity.

so hmmmm what is tangible or what isnt....ask yourself

I'm not sure what bearing his video has on tangibility.  His "inconsistent notion sketched out and claimed incorrectly as a proof" is just as tangible as any legitimate proof.  That is entirely beside the point.

Another thing, bitcoin will never get here if there is not economy and market proof!!! Phylosophy doesnt help it much, programming did, mathematics did but economy and business mostly.

You're simply wrong, but this is not the particular holy war that you decided to pick a fight on so we'll leave that aside.

If you have greatest product in the world (perpetum mobile, zero energy electric generator) it will work but should it be proved to the world if there isn't economy or business. Maybe you are great mathetamatician or phylosopher but narrow as I said, I am sorry for that

You can prove your product successful over some span of time in the form of an existence proof, sure.  Later you can come back and say "look, I can prove my project worthwhile because, look, here it is existing and holding value."  I still don't think you could call this "proof of market" but whatever you call it it certainly wouldn't be anything novel.  Bitcoin already has this sort of proof.  Further, you certainly can't claim such a proof exists today.

I really would like from you to understand this, it is up to you not me

I am not the one who has any obligation here.  If we never resolve our dispute I walk away from it entirely unaffected.

However, you have everything on the line, here, since you are the one making the claim.  If we don't come to some resolution that only reflects, to your potential adopters, on you.  They will forever be forced to wonder whether it is the case that you innocently lack competency and misunderstand the meaning of proof or the case that you are simply trying to defraud them through lies and trickery.

Either way, I suspect this will deter rather than inspire confidence.

I see an easy solution for you, just retract the claim in question and move on confident in knowing that there will be no question over the validity of your claim of proof.

[Frangomel]

As I said proof of market exists in other forms of peoples activites, plan is proof when time passes. Till now lots of things was proved. We are going in circles in this speak, you are not saying nothing but big posts. POW is nothing than mathematics with workflow which is time related so it is just name.

Bitcoin is POM and POW, because whole industry is created from it and price is like this because POM was stopped (POW is growing but not related to price because POM is not well), but it will go up soon further, hope so.

You are phylosophy programming oriented, I am showing you another door here, lots of people understood it. There are not hidden doors, just another complementary science into this. Phylosophy is something which is not good in here because for phylosophers truth is lie and vice versa. I do like it but not proper into this kind of business.

[HunterMinerCrafter]

As I said proof of market exists in other forms of peoples activites, plan is proof when time passes. Till now lots of things was proved.

I suspect that you are thinking of the notion of "proof of concept" not market.  You don't even have a proof of concept to demonstrate.

We are going in circles in this speak, you are not saying nothing but big posts.

If you don't think my big posts say anything then you are just refusing to listen and hear me.

POW is nothing than mathematics with workflow which is time related so it is just name.

Bitcoin is POM and POW, because whole industry is created from it and price is like this because POM was stopped (POW is growing but not related to price because POM is not well), but it will go up soon further, hope so.

Huh?

You are phylosophy programming oriented, I am showing you another door here, lots of people understood it. There are not hidden doors, just another complementary science into this. Phylosophy is something which is not good in here because for phylosophers truth is lie and vice versa. I do like it but not proper into this kind of business.

Yes, there's no place for concern about what is real and true (the definition of philosophy, which it seems you can't even manage to spell correctly) in the altcoin business.  Can't have that, people questioning what is or isn't real.  If people do that it might be harder to fleece them, right?

[Frangomel]

If you have POM in your work price should be for sure bigger, I would like you to understand that price of most of the coins is not about programming and POW and POS it is about investors, usability, real market sell etc. that is proof of market.

When I will have first coin into game (from 15th of October) it will be proof of market, because I sell it to gamer and investors and game dev. gets profit of that, so I prove what I promised and it is not all I will give them phase 2 which would be more attractive.

Bitcoin community, I am one of them from 2012. understand what is POM Hope that you will also

[Willisius]

This is going nowhere. Frangomel, what HunterMinerCrafter (to the best of my knowledge) is trying to clarify, and me to a lesser extent, is that "proof of market" is not valid. It's a marketing term with no real meaning. The validity of PoW is that even if I am 100% sure that you're a scammer and that you're trying to con me, I can still acknowledge a proof of work that you give me. That's what the whole thing hinges on; proof is a way of saying "you don't have to trust me."

Now consider your "proof of market" concept in the same context: You claim there is proof of a market, and I am 100% sure that you're a scammer and that you're trying to con me. How can I verify your claims? How can my computer verify your claims? Will every computer in the world agree that the proof is valid?

If you understand that "proof of market" has no actual meaning, then you can say so. I'm posting this because I don't think you understand.

[Frangomel]

Wow too much claims without knowing the matter. Firstly if I am a scammer wouldnt tlk to anybody or if I try to cheat you i wouldnt open thread about this. There was so much frauds in cryptos that you are scared of anything new and honest. So lets divide unknown from cheat in your head. If you dont understand something and you think that I am scammer or cheater, that means you dont understand it.

Cryptos are mostly open source platforms. You need to understand that and it says, that you can connect lots of on it, so using another science is something new to you. Economic has different measurements and scales but still it is numbers. So POM is new live creative way of thinking. It is communication, negotiation, agreement, attraction, promotion, defying of price etc. So it had lots in common with people and its goals has to be different in terms of understanding. So do not please be scary with new things. I am not pushing anybody just explaining new kind of things. Computer cannot deal things, open negotiations, talk with people...it must done by another science. So POM i not just proof it is systematic using social business methods for implementing crypto into real market.

I dont want to fraud, scam, cheat or judge something just explaining new stuff!

POW is not always you have to trust me...because it has its holes in terms of fraud it is human mistakes or deliberately but unfortunately nothing is perfect. I want to be optimal not subjective thinking. So, POM is existing and it is step forward. There is lots of coins here which could use POM and which could be better in terms of price!

POM is usability meaning not generating coins. So you create them and then use them. We like to measure that usability!!!

[asdlolciterquit]

First game that will use your coin, is a totally new game or is game on the market yet that will add this feature?

[Frangomel]

First game that will use your coin, is a totally new game or is game on the market yet that will add this feature?

We are doing both, have investor fund where are coins is selled to gamers through game developers. It is done through freshonline payment platform and API in games using in-game purchase. So everything of that is POM. Coins are generated with POW system but used with POM system which is price and market cause!

We will have freshcoin dedicated games with similar as POP but better because it will use POW into games and that mined or collected coins into games will be used for sell over market. So it is circled...everything is showed in marketing plan

Profit of coins is divided 50/50 investors/game developers so 1$ for 1 freshcoin is our retail price. Investors profit is proportionally shared.

[Willisius]

Wow too much claims without knowing the matter. Firstly if I am a scammer wouldnt tlk to anybody or if I try to cheat you i wouldnt open thread about this. There was so much frauds in cryptos that you are scared of anything new and honest. So lets divide unknown from cheat in your head. If you dont understand something and you think that I am scammer or cheater, that means you dont understand it.

Cryptos are mostly open source platforms. You need to understand that and it says, that you can connect lots of on it, so using another science is something new to you. Economic has different measurements and scales but still it is numbers. So POM is new live creative way of thinking. It is communication, negotiation, agreement, attraction, promotion, defying of price etc. So it had lots in common with people and its goals has to be different in terms of understanding. So do not please be scary with new things. I am not pushing anybody just explaining new kind of things. Computer cannot deal things, open negotiations, talk with people...it must done by another science. So POM i not just proof it is systematic using social business methods for implementing crypto into real market.

I dont want to fraud, scam, cheat or judge something just explaining new stuff!

POW is not always you have to trust me...because it has its holes in terms of fraud it is human mistakes or deliberately but unfortunately nothing is perfect. I want to be optimal not subjective thinking. So, POM is existing and it is step forward. There is lots of coins here which could use POM and which could be better in terms of price!

POM is usability meaning not generating coins. So you create them and then use them. We like to measure that usability!!!

I'm not calling you a scammer here. Read this again, it's hypothetical:

This is going nowhere. Frangomel, what HunterMinerCrafter (to the best of my knowledge) is trying to clarify, and me to a lesser extent, is that "proof of market" is not valid. It's a marketing term with no real meaning. The validity of PoW is that even if I am 100% sure that you're a scammer and that you're trying to con me, I can still acknowledge a proof of work that you give me. That's what the whole thing hinges on; proof is a way of saying "you don't have to trust me."

Now consider your "proof of market" concept in the same context: You claim there is proof of a market, and I am 100% sure that you're a scammer and that you're trying to con me. How can I verify your claims? How can my computer verify your claims? Will every computer in the world agree that the proof is valid?

If you understand that "proof of market" has no actual meaning, then you can say so. I'm posting this because I don't think you understand.

Bear in mind that the scenario is hypothetical. I am not accusing you of being a scammer. I'm asking how somebody who wouldn't trust you to tell him the time of day can accept your "proof of market." There's no way to deny PoW, everyone will always reach the same result given the same input. The same doesn't seem to be true of your concept.
I fully support anything new and creative in cryptocurrency, I support open source projects. I want you to be aware of the flaws that I see in your concept. Because if I see them, then people much smarter than me will see them too. I'll watch, but if you want to keep refusing to provide answers, I will leave you alone.

[HunterMinerCrafter]

I'll watch, but if you want to keep refusing to provide answers, I will leave you alone.

My bet would be that you don't get the answers that are sought, because they don't seem to be there to be had.  I'm guessing you'll end up leaving him alone.

Alone is where he should be, anyway, left to himself and his fantastical universe in which proof need not prove anything, in which logic and reasoning are too "narrow" to have a place in defining reality, and in which the future value of a thing can be magically constrained to a whim.

[Frangomel]

@Willisius

Ok, I am also open for anything new thats why I looked for connecting economy with crypto. I didnt deny POW, POS or other system which is for creating coins. They are working and I am glad that they exist. Of course I am happy that this is open source so everybody can attach whatever they want.

Bad thing is that lot of scammers and FUD-ers came in crypto and make atmosphere of untrust. That is why I come into this. I couldnt watch that anymore and wanted to do something new with honest and trust. That was my first word to savale, developer of Freshcoin who made programming of this. There was another trend which is also happening now. Developers (programmers) who cant make new coin, do that and after its publishing they disappear, mostly because they do not understand that this kind of work needs team, marketing, selling, communication, design and lots of other stuff, other developers who disappear are scammers, FUD-ers or just want to fraud, or third category is those who dont want to accept another science into their work.

That is why I implement this package which is called proof of market POM and it prooves in terms of time what we want to do. In our white paper you have time table and you can measure our work. When I say market I mean everything which is connected to market coin:

1. making business system which will be automated (in our example it is investor fund, game developers, gamers and back)

2. call for investors

3. focus groups which will have special attention

4. defining the price

5. exchange politics

6. promotion and marketing

7. analysis, exploring the market

8. evaluation

So that are economy principles which is called POM, because we are proofing our work in time. I am really sorry because this trend made it not trusted, but this system is in economy for years, decades. It is business model which is used in firms. We are looking at Freshcoin as a firm which need to grow in terms of community, usability, price and everything. That is our goals. So I cant see what is missunderstandable with this. This is system from another social activity usable into crypto. I understand that programmers are looking for 0 and 1 but in economy where are living people we need more tolerant model which is called POM.

[HunterMinerCrafter]

is called proof of market POM and it prooves in terms of time what we want to do.

Maybe you should call it proof-of-wants, then.  Or proof-of-hopes-and-dreams.  Maybe proof-of-fantasies.

How about proof-of-"just-trust"-Frangomel?

All seem like appropriate descriptors.

These are the only things that you could prove in your "proof" of "market" system.

[Frangomel]

I would like to ignore you, because you are speaking a lot and saying nothing, but need to write just this and then I am letting you to speak with yourself.

If I am on your place, I would probably be like you because working for 10 months on coin without moving price, I would be desperate also and because of that desperate I would also attack new ideas and doing scams. So you as programmer, mathematician and philosopher, go and be desperate more on other places . Maybe go for a walk or something

This is not appropiate talk for full member as you are!!!!

Now you are free to speak with yourself you will be ignored!

[Frangomel]

Bear in mind that the scenario is hypothetical. I am not accusing you of being a scammer. I'm asking how somebody who wouldn't trust you to tell him the time of day can accept your "proof of market." There's no way to deny PoW, everyone will always reach the same result given the same input. The same doesn't seem to be true of your concept.
I fully support anything new and creative in cryptocurrency, I support open source projects. I want you to be aware of the flaws that I see in your concept. Because if I see them, then people much smarter than me will see them too. I'll watch, but if you want to keep refusing to provide answers, I will leave you alone.

About POW and concept of POW, there was lots of frauds in that terms like hidden blocks, like human mistakes. System as it is works and it proofs a work of validating transactions and rewarding but in the core of it, when we say proof, it could be abused!

edit> we made a business system where all investors will get amount of profit proportionally their input into system divided with game developers claim. It would be done automatically by implementing coin into the games. SO in terms of using the coin on the market, its profitability everybody will get same amount of market share, thats why POM

[HunterMinerCrafter]

If I am on your place, I would probably be like you because working for 10 months on coin without moving price,

Again, huh?  What coin do you think I've been working on for 10 months, exactly?  Do you mean HUC that I contributed a few patches to once, or MOTO which I am not actually a developer of, only a sort of volunteer code-maintainer.  I've spent nowhere near 10 months involved with either.  I shouldn't be surprised that you can't get facts straight since things like fact, proof, and reality are apparently not familiar concepts for you.

Now you are free to speak with yourself you will be ignored!

So what, exactly, changes? You were already ignoring me.  By your own admission, you have not chosen to see anything of what I have tried to communicate.

[HunterMinerCrafter]

Bear in mind that the scenario is hypothetical. I am not accusing you of being a scammer. I'm asking how somebody who wouldn't trust you to tell him the time of day can accept your "proof of market." There's no way to deny PoW, everyone will always reach the same result given the same input. The same doesn't seem to be true of your concept.
I fully support anything new and creative in cryptocurrency, I support open source projects. I want you to be aware of the flaws that I see in your concept. Because if I see them, then people much smarter than me will see them too. I'll watch, but if you want to keep refusing to provide answers, I will leave you alone.

About POW and concept of POW, there was lots of frauds in that terms like hidden blocks, like human mistakes. System as it is works and it proofs a work of validating transactions and rewarding but in the core of it, when we say proof, it could be abused!

Yah, bitcoin had so many hidden blocks, after all.  POW must be broken.

These POW scam systems were working as intended.  Their proofs certainly accounted for those "hidden" blocks, regardless of whether or not anyone was silly enough to actually use the network without first assessing what was proven by it.  In any case, I'm not sure what this has to do with Willisius' excellent and pointed question.

edit> we made a business system where all investors will get amount of profit proportionally their input into system divided with game developers claim. It would be done automatically by implementing coin into the games. SO in terms of using the coin on the market, its profitability everybody will get same amount of market share, thats why POM

In other words, you're not going to actually answer the question, right?

[Frangomel]

Bear in mind that the scenario is hypothetical. I am not accusing you of being a scammer. I'm asking how somebody who wouldn't trust you to tell him the time of day can accept your "proof of market." There's no way to deny PoW, everyone will always reach the same result given the same input. The same doesn't seem to be true of your concept.
I fully support anything new and creative in cryptocurrency, I support open source projects. I want you to be aware of the flaws that I see in your concept. Because if I see them, then people much smarter than me will see them too. I'll watch, but if you want to keep refusing to provide answers, I will leave you alone.

About POW and concept of POW, there was lots of frauds in that terms like hidden blocks, like human mistakes. System as it is works and it proofs a work of validating transactions and rewarding but in the core of it, when we say proof, it could be abused!

Yah, bitcoin had so many hidden blocks, after all.  POW must be broken.

These POW scam systems were working as intended.  Their proofs certainly accounted for those "hidden" blocks, regardless of whether or not anyone was silly enough to actually use the network without first assessing what was proven by it.  In any case, I'm not sure what this has to do with Willisius' excellent and pointed question.

edit> we made a business system where all investors will get amount of profit proportionally their input into system divided with game developers claim. It would be done automatically by implementing coin into the games. SO in terms of using the coin on the market, its profitability everybody will get same amount of market share, thats why POM

In other words, you're not going to actually answer the question, right?

I did for a few times, your wish to not understand this and narrow attitude doesnt give you opportunity to see answer and you are scamming of course. You can google it if you want and maybe you will understand then or you want me to google it for you?

Again...from the point of creating coins POW and other proofs are existing but from the point of usability there is POM, it is not about you and me it is about measuring the usability using tools for understanding like heuristics, exploring and interdisciplinary methods. Sorry but I cannot learn you how to do that, the core of the system is my proffesional experience for about 12 years in business. If you want to learn you need to open your mind first, which is not problem for most people in crypto and other industries like movie, games, sports, culture, medicine etc.

Maybe you can start with google then we can talk about POM!

[HunterMinerCrafter]

I did for a few times, your wish to not understand this and narrow attitude doesnt give you opportunity to see answer

I think you are still missing (or refusing to accept) that any answer to Willisius' question must be something that is not just true, but is necessarily true.  Everything you are talking about falls in the "might be" category, not the "necessarily is the case" category.  What you are purporting might be true, but not necessarily.

and you are scamming of course.

Yah, I'm such a scammer. 

We were being very careful not to label.  Remember what I said about throwing stones?  You are not going to be earning yourself any points of favor or credibility with this. 

Again...from the point of creating coins POW and other proofs are existing but from the point of usability there is POM, it is not about you and me it is about measuring the usability using tools for understanding like heuristics,

Heuristic, itself, implies a lack of proof by its very definition.  If you have proven it then you have no need for, nor opportunity of, a heuristic measure of it.  If a thing can *only* be shown by analytic methods then it is something that inherently cannot ever be proven.

[Frangomel]

You didnt google it yet ha?

and please stop to judge me, we are talking about work, look at your post, every second one is about judging me...so this is not theme. You dont know me, you dont understand POM in other activities, I said learn it first then judge. Your point about proof is not a point it is philosophy, nothing more! Proof of market is derivate from economy, I didnt invent it I just know to use it