[ANN] MT.GOX - SEPA Withdrawals Are Back Again!

[miernik]

we can do a SEPA for 1 coin?
great. I am in SepaSwitzerland with a beautiful Euro Account.

No holiday tomorrow and I get an email when funds are deposited.

I have never used bitcoin-OTC yet so this could be a try, or I have a bitmarket.eu account with an open order to sell.
You could just buy 1 and send me 3.9 Euros ?

I did not know about bitcoin-24.com; do you know who is behind them?
and bitstamp is in beautiful Slovenia

I encourage you to register on bitcoin-otc and we could give each other a rating later, which will be useful for you to start making trades there (sometimes useful to trade without fees).

Instructions here:
http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/Using_bitcoin-otc#GPG_authentication_requirement
http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_authentication
Too much text there, in fact you don't need to read most of it.
You just need:
1) a registered nick on Freenode IRC
2) a GPG key

Then on IRC (being connected to Freenode) do this:

/query gribble
;;gpg eauth your_nick_here

You will receive an URL. Use that URL like this:

wget -O - http://bitcoin-otc.com/otps/9E7AE91E4EC8FCAD | gpg --decrypt

of course using the URL you got, not the example one above!
GPG will give you a long number, with which you do something like this in your query window with gribble:

;;gpg everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:e96890bd8943c521726b5d16e028439483258a584c34d3

And done, we can trade and rate. In fact you only need to do this to rate, Bitcoin/SEPA transfers don't require any of that, we just do them ourselves.
The next time you connect to IRC you only need the last step (everify).

So far I did one trade there and got a rating: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=miernik

If you want send me your E-mail in a private message and then I'll send you my GPG key to which you can respond with your SEPA account number by encrypted e-mail. You can also get my GPG key here:

http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xBF7AE9131EDCFCD9

Or let GnuPG grab it by itself:

gpg --search-keys BF7AE9131EDCFCD9

I'll do the SEPA late in the evening, and then you can post here the time you got it on your account, so you can show everybody how much time SEPA from Bank Zachodni WBK really goes.

[miernik]

Oh, seems gribble is down since several hours, you'll have to wait till it comes back up to register on bitcoin-otc.

[bitdragon]

I believe I already have a bitcoin-otc actually !
http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=bitdragon&sign=ANY&type=RECV

With one rating already

received your mail and will revert shortly.

[miernik]

I did not know about bitcoin-24.com; do you know who is behind them?

A guy from Germany, very responsive. He promises 0.1 BTC if he doesn't respond to a question within 24 hours. SEPA withdrawals are free of charge and are really done daily. Trade is also free of comission for now. You can deposit instantly via Sofortüberweisung. A really nice exchange, although only 35 days old now.

[miernik]

Oh, seems gribble is down since several hours, you'll have to wait till it comes back up to register on bitcoin-otc.

Gribble is back up, you can use #bitcoin-otc now.

[2weiX]

I did not know about bitcoin-24.com; do you know who is behind them?

A guy from Germany, very responsive. He promises 0.1 BTC if he doesn't respond to a question within 24 hours. SEPA withdrawals are free of charge and are really done daily. Trade is also free of comission for now. You can deposit instantly via Sofortüberweisung. A really nice exchange, although only 35 days old now.

You should be aware that with German Law, this thing is in need of a permit from BaFin, which I am guessing he has not.
So don't park a lot of cash there.

[miernik]

You should be aware that with German Law, this thing is in need of a permit from BaFin, which I am guessing he has not.
So don't park a lot of cash there.

http://www.VirWox.com/ also has bank accounts in Germany (although they're in Austria). And they're a serious company, long time on the market, and they also don't have any special German licence, so...?

And http://www.bitcoin.de/ ?
It's peer-to-peer without bank accounts, but what does it matter if its a official German company?

Where does the information that a Bitcoin exchange in Germany needs any more licence then running a webshop?

[2weiX]

You should be aware that with German Law, this thing is in need of a permit from BaFin, which I am guessing he has not.
So don't park a lot of cash there.

http://www.VirWox.com/ also has bank accounts in Germany (although they're in Austria). And they're a serious company, long time on the market, and they also don't have any special German licence, so...?

And http://www.bitcoin.de/ ?
It's peer-to-peer without bank accounts, but what does it matter if its a official German company?

Where does the information that a Bitcoin exchange in Germany needs any more licence then running a webshop?

Well

if the person running it is German and the thing is run from Germany, then it's German.
I am not trying to hate, I'm just pointing out that this is a pitfall that could be avoided.

bitcoin.de especially is SPECIFICALLY included by KWG §1 Abs. 1a, 1b & 4.

[2weiX]

For our German readers: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8142.msg930105#msg930105

[bitdragon]

I'll do the SEPA late in the evening, and then you can post here the time you got it on your account, so you can show everybody how much time SEPA from Bank Zachodni WBK really goes.

Funds received on 01.06.2012 at 15:00:13

Funds arrived the following day !

[miernik]

Funds received on 01.06.2012 at 15:00:13

For completeness: I clicked "submit" in Bank Zachodni WBK exactly at: Thu, 2012-05-31 20:17:01 CEST

It would be the same if I did it till 23:30 CEST, but I wanted to go to sleep.

So, now we have proof how long SEPA transfers from Bank Zachodni WBK really take once they're submitted in the bank. If your withdrawal from MtGox didn't arrive on a day, it means that MtGox in fact did not submit it to the bank the previous day.

So, anyone has conducted tests when SEPA withdrawals from MtGox come to their account, from the moment they requested the withdrawal?

[miernik]

bitcoin.de especially is SPECIFICALLY included by KWG §1 Abs. 1a, 1b & 4.

Can you shortly write in English what this KWG article says? My German is still poor.

Anyway, these guys running bitcoin.de know what they are doing, not?

[repentance]

A bit of calcification is needed here.

1. 1 to 5 Business Day. Yes we all agree on this point that SEPA transfer as to be done in 1 business day or 24h. However, experience taught us that it can take, depending of the bank and circumstances (Public Holidays and so on) up to 5 business day. Also if the an Intermediary bank is involved in the process, and this happen fairly often, this will take at least 3 days : 24h for our Bank, 24h for the Intermediary Bank and the day after that for your Bank.

2. Fees, oh yes those evil fees! Yep even us are not to fund on them! The fees that has been mentioned earlier are external to Mt.Gox. By this I mean that in this very case intermediaries and Banks are in fact receiving those fees and not us!
And to follow on this very important subject, we are working/negotiating better fees and hope to offer you soon something better in this regards. We have a few solution that we would love to see happening soon!

Cheers!

Did you run that through Google translate or post it while drunk?  It's barely comprehensible.

"Calcification", indeed.

[Zubilica]

Are you kidding me. 1 week for SEPA ?  Still no founds received.

[2weiX]

bitcoin.de especially is SPECIFICALLY included by KWG §1 Abs. 1a, 1b & 4.

Can you shortly write in English what this KWG article says? My German is still poor.

Anyway, these guys running bitcoin.de know what they are doing, not?

basically it says that if you're trading with BTC (not using them to buy/sell stuff), you need to get a permit from bafin (the german SEC).

[miernik]

bitcoin.de especially is SPECIFICALLY included by KWG §1 Abs. 1a, 1b & 4.

Can you shortly write in English what this KWG article says? My German is still poor.

Anyway, these guys running bitcoin.de know what they are doing, not?

basically it says that if you're trading with BTC (not using them to buy/sell stuff), you need to get a permit from bafin (the german SEC).

OK, I found it in English:
http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/KWG.htm

(1a) Financial services institutions are enterprises which provide financial services to others commercially or on a scale which requires a commercially organised business undertaking, and which are not credit institutions. Financial services are

    1. the brokering of business involving the purchase and sale of financial instruments or their documentation (investment broking),

    2. the purchase and sale of financial instruments in the name of and for the account of others (contract broking),

    3. the administration of individual portfolios of financial instruments for others on a discriminatory basis (portfolio management),

    4. the purchase and sale of financial instruments on an own-account basis for others (own-account trading),

    5. the brokering of deposit business with enterprises domiciled outside the European Economic Area (non-EEA deposit broking),

    6. the execution of payment orders (money transmission services), and

    7. dealing in foreign notes and coins (foreign currency dealing).

(1b) For the purpose of this Act, "institutions" are credit institutions and financial services institutions.

Where do you see BTC mentioned there? Because my grep fails to find it

[2weiX]

bitcoin.de especially is SPECIFICALLY included by KWG §1 Abs. 1a, 1b & 4.

Can you shortly write in English what this KWG article says? My German is still poor.

Anyway, these guys running bitcoin.de know what they are doing, not?

basically it says that if you're trading with BTC (not using them to buy/sell stuff), you need to get a permit from bafin (the german SEC).

OK, I found it in English:
http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/KWG.htm

(1a) Financial services institutions are enterprises which provide financial services to others commercially or on a scale which requires a commercially organised business undertaking, and which are not credit institutions. Financial services are

    1. the brokering of business involving the purchase and sale of financial instruments or their documentation (investment broking),

    2. the purchase and sale of financial instruments in the name of and for the account of others (contract broking),

    3. the administration of individual portfolios of financial instruments for others on a discriminatory basis (portfolio management),

    4. the purchase and sale of financial instruments on an own-account basis for others (own-account trading),

    5. the brokering of deposit business with enterprises domiciled outside the European Economic Area (non-EEA deposit broking),

    6. the execution of payment orders (money transmission services), and

    7. dealing in foreign notes and coins (foreign currency dealing).

(1b) For the purpose of this Act, "institutions" are credit institutions and financial services institutions.

Where do you see BTC mentioned there? Because my grep fails to find it

bitcoin is NOT considered "e-money", it is however legal to create it and spend it.
however, once "it itself becomes subject of trading" that trading becomes "banking"

Als Zahlungsmittel bestimmte Werteinheiten, die in Barter-Clubs, privaten Tauschringen oder anderen Zahlungssystemen gegen realwirtschaftliche Leistungen, Warenlieferungen oder Dienstleistungen geschöpft oder wie z.B. die Bitcoins gegenleistungslos in Computernetzwerken erschaffen werden, scheiden damit aus dem Tatbestand des E-Geldes aus, auch wenn sie wirtschaftlich die gleiche Funktion wie E-Geld haben und unter Geldschöpfungsgesichtspunkten das eigentliche Potential privat generierter Zahlungsmittel stellen (s. hierzu auch die RegBegr. zu § 1a Abs. 3, BT-Drucks. 17/3023, S. 40). Diese Einschränkung vollzog der nationale Gesetzgeber bereits mit der Umsetzung der Ersten E-Geld-Richtlinie[7] im Rahmen des 4. Finanzmarktförderungsgesetzes[8]; mit der Streichung des Tatbestandes des Netzgeldgeschäftes (§ 1 Abs. 1 Satz 2 Nr. 12 KWG in der Fassung der 6. KWG-Novelle; KWG-Novelle 1997, Inkrafttreten 01.01.1998), wurde der Aspekt privater Geldschöpfung ausgeblendet.

Erlaubnisfrei sind insoweit jedoch nur die Schaffung derartiger Werteinheiten und ihr Einsatz als Zahlungsmittel. Wenn unterdessen diese Werteinheiten ihrerseits selbst zum Handelsgegenstand werden, ist das Geschäft je nach seiner Ausgestaltung als Bankgeschäft nach § 1 Abs. 1 Satz 2 Nrn. 4 oder 10 KWG oder Finanzdienstleistung nach § 1 Abs. 1a Satz 2 Nrn. 1 - 4 KWG zu qualifizieren und steht nach § 32 Abs. 1 KWG grundsätzlich unter Erlaubnisvorbehalt. Diese Werteinheiten sind Rechnungseinheiten und fallen als solche ohne weiteres unter die Finanzinstrumente im Sinne von § 1 Abs. 11 KWG.

[Cashvalue payment units such as those created in or by]  barter clubs, private barter or other payment systems [to be used] against real economic performance or delivery of goods or services such as the Bitcoins are [..] created in computer networks, [are different from] e-money, even if they [perform] the same function as e-money and put [the] money creation point of the real potential of privately-generated cash see (this includes the RegBegr. to § 1a paragraph 3, BT-pressure. 17/3023, p.40). This restriction already occurred, the national legislature with the implementation of the First E-Money Directive [7] in the framework of the 4th Financial Market Promotion Act [8], with the deletion of the facts of the net cash transaction (§ 1 paragraph 1 sentence 2 No. 12 of the Banking Act as amended by the 6th KWG amendment, KWG 1997, entered into force 01.01.1998), was the aspect of private money creation hidden.

No permit is [neccessary for] the [..] creation of such units and their use as currency. Meanwhile, if this value units turn themselves to trading subject to, the business [qualifies] as a banking business in accordance with § 1 paragraph 1 sentence 2 numbers 4 or 10 of the Banking Act or a financial services according to § 1 section 1a sentence 2 Nos. 1-4 of the Banking Act to qualify and are generally [required as per] § 32 paragraph 1 of the Banking subject to permission.

These units are units of account value and as such are automatically covered by the financial instruments referred to in § 1 para 11 KWGn

There you go.

[miernik]

If this interpretation of that text that "trading these units" becomes something which needs a BaFin license, then also everybody buying/selling prepaid GSM phone recharge codes, Ukash codes and similar would require a BaFin license. Which they obviously not, because every Turkish phone shop found on almost every corner sells these. And countless other places.

Trading Bitcoin is no different then trading Vodafone or Ukash scratchcards.

That the value of the code is hidden by a scratchable layer of paint or public key encryption should make no difference - its just a technicality, the principle is the same.

Everybody all around Germany is trading Vodafone/Ukash/Paysafecard/etc codes on scratchcards, etc, so everybody doing that can just as well trade Bitcoin. If trading Vodafone cards is not a problem, then trading Bitcoin also can not be, because its in principle an equivalent thing.

Try to report your nearest Turkish shop which sells GSM phone recharge codes to BaFin and tell us how it went

[2weiX]

If this interpretation of that text that "trading these units" becomes something which needs a BaFin license, then also everybody buying/selling prepaid GSM phone recharge codes, Ukash codes and similar would require a BaFin license. Which they obviously not, because every Turkish phone shop found on almost every corner sells these. And countless other places.

Trading Bitcoin is no different then trading Vodafone or Ukash scratchcards.

That the value of the code is hidden by a scratchable layer of paint or public key encryption should make no difference - its just a technicality, the principle is the same.

Everybody all around Germany is trading Vodafone/Ukash/Paysafecard/etc codes on scratchcards, etc, so everybody doing that can just as well trade Bitcoin. If trading Vodafone cards is not a problem, then trading Bitcoin also can not be, because its in principle an equivalent thing.

Try to report your nearest Turkish shop which sells GSM phone recharge codes to BaFin and tell us how it went

yes it is different, that is exactly what this provision says (and the proviosn quoted therein).
it is okay to exchange BTC for ONE THING or THE OTHER THING but permission is needed if you are only or mostly buying and selling BTC for money.

[miernik]

it is okay to exchange BTC for ONE THING or THE OTHER THING but permission is needed if you are only or mostly buying and selling BTC for money.

What else are Turkish phone shops doing then "only or mostly buying and selling Vodafone-codes for money"?