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the joint
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October 05, 2014, 08:06:45 AM
 #41

**Note: For the record, I released the majority of my holdings between $600-$850 but still have some stake in this market.

this is the real message, the rest is blah blah blah

I interpreted this in two ways, either that this is the sole reason I made the OP or that somehow some small knowledge about my trading history is of more value than the rest of the post.  I'm guessing it's the first one, and it's called dutiful disclosure.

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October 05, 2014, 08:40:20 AM
 #42

the joint .... great OP.  You sound like a biochemist.

A posting like that doesn't get written by accident.  It is written by someone who is very intelligent, is educated, and knows lots about bitcoin too.

You deserve whatever USD equivalent you locked in earlier.  We are lucky you are still engaged with the bitcoin community, as you probably have lots of other interesting pursuits to fill your time with.

To any 'doubters' out there... consider why someone like the OP is still engaged with bitcoin.  I'll guess they like and support the politics of the system, and the associated financial freedom.  Bitcoin is revolutionary technology... in addition to being a technological revelation.

Later, I may comment in more technical on some of your points.  But first I wanted to comment on the meta level.

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October 05, 2014, 10:51:54 AM
 #43

Hoarding is like stuffing cash in a mattress.  It does nothing.  Theres no value creation.  

False. Given that there can only ever be 21 million bitcoins, hoarding them can create scarcity, which is not nothing.

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Thats why experienced investors don't hoard bitcoin.  They either invest in ventures or stay away totally.

Why do experienced investors hoard commodities then?


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But i think homeostasis will only be discovered once there is another real economy like silk road that comes along

There are already these out there. They have been there since Silk Road went down.
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October 05, 2014, 11:07:33 AM
 #44

I will make it simpler:
Just invest in MaidSafeCoins.
And hold your position in Bitcoins.
Thats it.

If bitcoins fails, all Cryptos are gonna fail.
MaidSafe is another story, a completely different animal.
Um, it is my understanding that MaidSafe is built on Mastercoin, which is in turn built on Bitcoin. It Bitcoin fails, so does MaidSafe.
Edit: Looked into it a little more:
Quote from: TechCrunch
In addition, MaidSafe has filed multiple patents — and will be looking at opportunities to license its technologies for use outside the Safe network. “We’ve got about ten granted patents, about 22 pending just now and more on the way. And some of these libraries and technologies that we’ve created can be used outside the network. So, for example, an existing Content Delivery Network… like Akamai they could use our routing and RUDP libraries to basically make their distributed servers run much more efficiently and much faster,” he says. “Anyone using our patents within the network is absolutely welcome to do so. The patents, just to point out, are purely defensive.”
- The Server Needs To Die To Save The Internet

Ugh, software patents. Not touching that one.

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October 05, 2014, 11:11:27 AM
 #45

This is a disheartening post. It misses so many points that have been discussed many times. Because there is so much negativity now I don't want to be accused of being a bag holder. Oh well, I'm happy for you to feel like you won a game or something. You can make vague observations, but it's hardly speculation. These systems you speak of sound like spirituality. That's fine too. Everything is connected and kumbaya right back at ya.

I will make it simpler:
Just invest in MaidSafeCoins.
And hold your position in Bitcoins.
Thats it.

If bitcoins fails, all Cryptos are gonna fail.
MaidSafe is another story, a completely different animal.
I'm not putting that company down, but they are just a business. If it shows any promise it will either be bought or copied. If it's bought its model may be changed. If it is copied and marketed by a big brand, then your investment will be lost. Bitcoin has thousands of failed competitors. Can Maidsafe resist such competition? That's a rhetorical question.

MaidSafe has NO competition.
Research about it, and then come back.

If it is fully open source then it will be cloned just like Bitcoin. If it's not open source, then it's probably an NSA project.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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October 05, 2014, 12:22:17 PM
 #46

MaidSafe has NO competition.
Research about it, and then come back.

Storj isn't competition?

http://storj.io/
http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/storjcoin-x/

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October 05, 2014, 01:34:31 PM
 #47

twiifm, when exactly did you convince your old man to not buy some bitcoins?

There is no bubble.
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October 05, 2014, 02:09:56 PM
 #48

MaidSafe has NO competition.
Research about it, and then come back.

Storj isn't competition?

http://storj.io/
http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/storjcoin-x/


Not even close.
MaidSafe is a whole internet decentralized. It destroys the client-server model.
Storj it is only about storage, blockchain based, eventually it could end up being an app inside MaidSafe.
Also, MaidSafe solved the bizantine generals problem without the need of a blockchain.

So MaidSafe is not leveraging on bitcoin, it is on its own category by itself.
Also, MaidSafe have been in the works since before bitcoins.
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October 05, 2014, 02:11:25 PM
 #49

twiifm, when exactly did you convince your old man to not buy some bitcoins?

Around 1000.  I also advised my friend against 650 or whatever the price when SR auction.

People usually ask me around super bullish times


     
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October 05, 2014, 02:20:59 PM
 #50

Not even close.
MaidSafe is a whole internet decentralized.
Storj could be just an app inside MaidSafe.
Also, MaidSafe solved the bizantine generals problem without the need of a blockchain.

I understand the distinctions, but not acknowledging competitors when they both provide the same product is just being naive or and act of pure hubris.

The most you could suggest is that Storj merely competes with maidsafe with one of its principle future products, instead of this false statement:

MaidSafe has NO competition.

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October 05, 2014, 02:28:35 PM
 #51

I will make it simpler:
Just invest in MaidSafeCoins.
And hold your position in Bitcoins.
Thats it.

If bitcoins fails, all Cryptos are gonna fail.
MaidSafe is another story, a completely different animal.
Um, it is my understanding that MaidSafe is built on Mastercoin, which is in turn built on Bitcoin. It Bitcoin fails, so does MaidSafe.
Edit: Looked into it a little more:
Quote from: TechCrunch
In addition, MaidSafe has filed multiple patents — and will be looking at opportunities to license its technologies for use outside the Safe network. “We’ve got about ten granted patents, about 22 pending just now and more on the way. And some of these libraries and technologies that we’ve created can be used outside the network. So, for example, an existing Content Delivery Network… like Akamai they could use our routing and RUDP libraries to basically make their distributed servers run much more efficiently and much faster,” he says. “Anyone using our patents within the network is absolutely welcome to do so. The patents, just to point out, are purely defensive.”
- The Server Needs To Die To Save The Internet

Ugh, software patents. Not touching that one.


Omg is that the reach of your researching skills?
1st) MasterCoin has nothing to do with MaidSafe. Nothing.
This demonstrates that you don't even understand what mastercoin is.
Mastercoin was used for the crowdfunding, and it holds tokens until the Safe network goes live.
Then MaidSafeCoins will be converted into SafeCoins in its own network.

2nd) They are designing new network protocols to make this work. Patents have a bad name because of patent trolls. But it is a necessary step to protect legitimate intellectual property, and yet to be open about its functionality.
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October 05, 2014, 02:29:22 PM
 #52

Not even close.
MaidSafe is a whole internet decentralized.
Storj could be just an app inside MaidSafe.
Also, MaidSafe solved the bizantine generals problem without the need of a blockchain.

I understand the distinctions, but not acknowledging competitors when they both provide the same product is just being naive or and act of pure hubris.

The most you could suggest is that Storj merely competes with maidsafe with one of its principle future products, instead of this false statement:

MaidSafe has NO competition.

If you are thinking they are providing the same products you clearly have no idea of their differences.
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October 05, 2014, 02:34:42 PM
 #53

If you are thinking they are providing the same products you clearly have no idea of their differences.

Ahh, I see..... and other cloud storage providers aren't competitors with either storj or maidsafe because they are centralized and not properly secure, right?

What a great way to focus on competition, just ignore any products that don't match every technical detail without understanding the potential end users needs.

Hopefully, the maidesafe team doesn't think the same way you do , because if so, the whole project is doomed.

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October 05, 2014, 02:46:04 PM
 #54

If you are thinking they are providing the same products you clearly have no idea of their differences.

Ahh, I see..... and other cloud storage providers aren't competitors with either storj or maidsafe because they are centralized and not properly secure, right?

What a great way to focus on competition, just ignore any products that don't match every technical detail without understanding the potential end users needs.

Hopefully, the maidesafe team doesn't think the same way you do , because if so, the whole project is doomed.

You keep mentioning storage.
You do realize that MaidSafe is not about storage at all. It is about a network, reinventing the internet as we know it. The storage in MaidSafe is just an extra feature.
It is like comparing a hard drive vs. a whole freaking laptop with an internet connection. Is really the hard drive market threatening the laptop? Does that really sound competing to you?

Going back to MaidSafe, tell me one another one project that is serverless, secure, redundant, decentralized and yet blockchain-less. Again, blockchainless. Think a minute about the significance of that.
If you find such system, you found your competitor.

And, yes, centralized servers are not the same as a serverless system.
Did you really care to see what MaidSafe is really about?

This is turning into a pointless discussion. If you still don't understand why it really doesn't have a serious competition, especially in the cryptoworld.

Only IBM can somewhat threaten MaidSafe if they move forward with their proprietary systems (Adept project).
And yet even if they move forward with that, MaidSafe will remain non-profit and open, and their market target is different from IBM's.
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October 05, 2014, 03:29:45 PM
 #55

You keep mentioning storage.
You do realize that MaidSafe is not about storage at all. It is about a network, reinventing the internet as we know it.
Tell me one another one project that is serverless, secure, redundant, decentralized and yet blockchain-less. Again, blockchainless. Think a minute about the significance of that.

And, yes, centralized servers are not the same as a serverless system.
Did you really care to see what MaidSafe is really about?

This is turning into a pointless discussion. If you still don't understand why it really doesn't have a serious competition, especially in the cryptoworld.

Only IBM can somewhat threaten MaidSafe if they move forward with their proprietary systems (Adept project).
And yet even if they move forward with that, MaidSafe will remain non-profit and open source.
It is hard to compete against free... and farming resources for their users.

Yes, I understand the ambitious scope of David's project and even read many of the whitepapers.
Your perspective is from a brainwashed IPO investor regurgitating marketing and mine is someone with no vested stakes in either project.

I understand that Maidsafe is trying to accomplish more and will offer more features and products. I'm not quibbling about the differences, but just suggesting
you have to also understand Maidsafe from a consumer point of reference and how it differentiates from dropbox/google drive/ect.. which is free for most users,
or how it differentiates from Storj , or how it differentiates from Freenet/Netsukuku/GNUnet/Cjdns/I2P/ect... open source protocols. These are all very old ideas , and
executing them with the right incentives is the tricky part. Maidsafe may be too ambitious and to closed to really take over the ecosystem; history will show.

Ignoring your competition because you are blinded by your own investment is dangerous.

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October 05, 2014, 03:38:38 PM
 #56

You keep mentioning storage.
You do realize that MaidSafe is not about storage at all. It is about a network, reinventing the internet as we know it.
Tell me one another one project that is serverless, secure, redundant, decentralized and yet blockchain-less. Again, blockchainless. Think a minute about the significance of that.

And, yes, centralized servers are not the same as a serverless system.
Did you really care to see what MaidSafe is really about?

This is turning into a pointless discussion. If you still don't understand why it really doesn't have a serious competition, especially in the cryptoworld.

Only IBM can somewhat threaten MaidSafe if they move forward with their proprietary systems (Adept project).
And yet even if they move forward with that, MaidSafe will remain non-profit and open source.
It is hard to compete against free... and farming resources for their users.

Yes, I understand the ambitious scope of David's project and even read many of the whitepapers.
Your perspective is from a brainwashed IPO investor regurgitating marketing and mine is someone with no vested stakes in either project.

I understand Maidsafe is trying to accomplish more and will offer more features and products, I'm not quibbling about the differences but the fact that
you have to also understand Maidsafe from a consumer point of reference and how it differentiates from dropbox/google drive/ect.. which is free for most users,
or how it differentiates from Storj , or how it differentiates from Freenet/Netsukuku/GNUnet/Cjdns/I2P/ect... open source protocols. These are all very old ideas , and
executing them with the right incentives is the tricky part. Maidsafe may be too ambitious and to closed to really take over the ecosystem, history will show.

Now we are talking about a different problem.
You were comparing it with Storj, which is a non issue.
So be careful pointing your finger to me as a brainwashed guy when I was only pointing out that your comparisons were ridiculously irrelevant.

I am aware of the risks, and that is another whole different issue, but competition is not one of them.
The overly ambitious aspect of it makes it extremely risky, and that's about it. Because if the execution of his vision is flawless, then there won't be a real competitor out there. None.

The other projects you mentioned are absolutely irrelevant. And the fact you mentioned them it is clear you don't really fully understand how it will be implemented...
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October 05, 2014, 03:47:50 PM
 #57

**Note: For the record, I released the majority of my holdings between $600-$850 but still have some stake in this market.


When did you get in?


Good post, glad I read it

I got into Bitcoin June 2011.

Thank you Smiley

Ah ok, it makes sense to sell and take your profits around $600-$850 if you got in at 2011.


I was just trying to see your perspective. If you got in after Nov 2013 and sold at a loss, then that would probably mean you're not confident in this system healing itself or having another phase where the input far exceeds the output. Which is what most of us holders are hoping for, but like you said it's a gamble.




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October 05, 2014, 03:50:57 PM
 #58

......then there won't be a real competitor out there. None.

The other projects you mentioned are absolutely irrelevant. And the fact you mentioned them it is clear you don't really fully understand how it will be implemented...

You are still not empathizing with the average potential user. When they consider : Where to store their files, how to encrypt their communications, how to lease their unused bandwidth , how to lease their unused hard drive space, how and where to host their websites, which CDN to use, ect.... They have many solutions with advantages and disadvantages to pick from. This is competition for maidsafe.

An external hard drive is competition for cloud storage like Dropbox despite them being very different products with different features.

Maidsafe may become a raging success, but to think that it  doesn't have competition is just delusional. I'm apologize for being a bit rude, but am frankly quite shocked that you would even dare making such claims.


The overly ambitious aspect of it makes it extremely risky,

But you are encouraging users to invest in maidsafecoins as a fail safe if bitcoin fails? Do you normally suggest users backup a risky investment with an extremely risky one?

P.S...   I admit, I am very slightly biased against maidsafe because their botched IPO, that just like Nxt, will continue to haunt the project. Which is a shame because I followed and liked David's ideas beforehand.

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October 05, 2014, 07:47:00 PM
 #59

......then there won't be a real competitor out there. None.

The other projects you mentioned are absolutely irrelevant. And the fact you mentioned them it is clear you don't really fully understand how it will be implemented...

You are still not empathizing with the average potential user. When they consider : Where to store their files, how to encrypt their communications, how to lease their unused bandwidth , how to lease their unused hard drive space, how and where to host their websites, which CDN to use, ect.... They have many solutions with advantages and disadvantages to pick from. This is competition for maidsafe.

An external hard drive is competition for cloud storage like Dropbox despite them being very different products with different features.

Maidsafe may become a raging success, but to think that it  doesn't have competition is just delusional. I'm apologize for being a bit rude, but am frankly quite shocked that you would even dare making such claims.


The overly ambitious aspect of it makes it extremely risky,

But you are encouraging users to invest in maidsafecoins as a fail safe if bitcoin fails? Do you normally suggest users backup a risky investment with an extremely risky one?

P.S...   I admit, I am very slightly biased against maidsafe because their botched IPO, that just like Nxt, will continue to haunt the project. Which is a shame because I followed and liked David's ideas beforehand.

The first thing you have to understand how practical it will be for the average user to just turn up their computer or even dumb terminal, logging in, and then using it. That's it.
It will be a transparent experience for the average and not so average Joe. There is practically no learning curve.

Do you know why dropbox was such a success?
For exactly the same reason.
MaidSafe will be even greater in its practicality, and besides that, you can generate money by using it. Do you need a bigger incentive than that?

All investments have risks, but this one is a no brainer.
High risk and high return is a given. But when the potential is to grow 10,000% or greater, you can invest just 1000 dollars and wait to see what happens.

The overly ambitious plan is a risk because it may never come out to light. But such risk is being minimized every time they demonstrate they are actually progressing toward their goal posts. The only reason I came out now supporting MaidSafe is because they finished TestNet1 and now they are progressing towards TestNet2.
It stopped being vaporware long time ago.

And again, none of the networks you mention is a direct competitor of MaidSafe. Have you even tried using Freenet? Or I2P? Do you really understand how it works and what is their scope and vision? Just because they use the words "decentralized" and "network", doesn't mean it is the same.

Also, you will have to be much more rational in your assessment, one thing is the technology, another thing is their IPO. If you can't separate both, you are the one at risk.
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October 06, 2014, 05:20:26 PM
 #60

This is a disheartening post.

Likewise Sad

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It misses so many points that have been discussed many times.

That's why I clearly stated that the OP wasn't exhaustive or even comprehensive in its scope.  But I'm genuinely curious which points you're referring to and how they impact affect what I'm saying.

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Because there is so much negativity now I don't want to be accused of being a bag holder. Oh well, I'm happy for you to feel like you won a game or something.

Oh give me a break. Thanks for just ignoring everything except the last line in the OP which I reluctantly posted to be transparent as possible.  The mere inclusion of that last line unquestionably removes bias from the OP.

Quote
You can make vague observations, but it's hardly speculation.

You think?!  Thanks, Captain Obvious.  Dude, Systems Theory isn't supposed to lead to speculation no matter what discipline it's applied to.  For example, systems theory as applied to psychology doesn't outline treatment or a course of action, but rather it helps you understand the psychology of a person or group in a context that can be consistently applied again and again.  All your reply shows is that you don't understand the theory or what it's intended for.  I even flatly stated that the OP is extremely general as it uses a theory which can be, and routinely is, applied to literally dozens of various disciplines.  In other words, I never even tried to speculate.

Quote
These systems you speak of sound like spirituality. That's fine too. Everything is connected and kumbaya right back at ya.

Now you're just going overboard.  The post is supposed to help people who are struggling to grasp the context of the situation due to intense emotions and/or a host of other factors.  The point is to set Bitcoin into a context that is internally and externally consistent throughout.  I'm not going to do your speculating for you or anyone else, but since I have significant experience with modeling these types of things, I thought this was another way I could contribute.

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