Why cloud mining is a zero sum game

[picolo]

cex.io and pbmining is both good.. But I prefer pbmining..

bitcoincloudservice.com is a good one for me

Cloudminr sells at 0.0011/GHS and no maintenance costs, what is pbmining rate? You have to register to know the price

mh..i dont see the 0.0011/GHS..can you tell me how you get the price xD

0.0013/GHS if you buy less than 2000GHS
0.0011/GHS if you buy 2000GHS or more

It's in the FAQ (https://cloudminr.io/faq/) or in the BUY HASHRATE page after you registered

[Opnsrc]

I lost alot with Physical Hardware.

I have earned over 3 times my investment back thanks to cloud mining (Mostly ltcgear).

Started with 2 btc, I now have over 2,000 Mhs.

Good Game.

[Puppet]

You don't see a ponzi scheme coming until its here.

Yeah, you can. Certainly with the vast majority of these cloudmining ponzi's.

Everyone here is focused on ROI, and no one seems to care if these companies are legit. The majority of cloudmining websites dont do any mining whatsoever. They pay out old customers via coinmixers from revenue that comes from recruiting new ones. No surprise, to keep the game going they usually emphasize referrals to make you do their dirty PR work.

Now why would you care if these companies are mining or not? All that matters is they pay out, right? Wrong.

If the company (or more aptly: scammer) isnt mining, then its impossible on average for the investors to profit. Early investors might, but only at the expense of later ones.  If there are no miners, then there is nothing to generate those profits. So dont be fooled by low prices or high payouts. Ponzi miners will drop prices as low they need to keep the game going.

And dont think because its been running for 10 months, that it has to be legit either. Unlike traditional ponzi's, mining ponzi's dont risk a bank run. You cant get your money out if you begin worrying, so they can run a fairly long time. Take PBmining, one of the most obvious ponzi schemes. Several posters here are promoting them, and at least some seem to think  they are legit because they have been paying since early this year. Here is the reality: based on their own stats, in the past month they sold ~1.5 (non existent) PH worth of contracts. Good for around ~2200 BTC. During that same month they paid around 1600 BTC in dividends. A net profit of  ~600 BTC or nearly a 1/4 of a million dollar. Just for running a website. SO of course they are still paying out, not because they are legit, but because they are maximizing their profits: they are still getting far more revenue from new victims than they are paying out.

Of course that cant last. At some point the new sales will slow while the owed dividends keep going up. Once the latter becomes bigger than the former, guess what the anonymous operator will do? Yep,  the same thing pirate, bitcoin-trader and countless other (mining) ponzi's before did. They go *POOF*



Be smart. Think before you invest. Dont trust *anyone* with a referral link in his signature. Let this be a guide:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860400.0

BTW, to all the referral link whores that are about to say Im full of it, that I have no proof etc,  Im taking bets. I will double your ponzi revenue through escrow if Im wrong. I will win the principal if Im right and within say 12 months, said ponzi collapsed.

[Opnsrc]

You don't see a ponzi scheme coming until its here.

BTW, to all the referral link whores that are about to say Im full of it, that I have no proof etc,  Im taking bets. I will double your ponzi revenue through escrow if Im wrong. I will win the principal if Im right and within say 12 months, said ponzi collapsed.

I accept your bet. Whats the price, and who is the escrow
Cloud Mining provider in this case is Ltcgear.

(My thought is that the Escrow will vanish before Chris)(But I have to think this way, For I have invested more than I can afford to lose)

PS: Not a referral whore, my signature is for slightly alternative means. Just saying lol.

[Puppet]

Im not taking bets against ltcgear. See the link I provided, I do think they are very suspicious, but not enough so that I declare them a ponzi with confidence.

Here are a few I will take bets against:

  
CoIntellect.com      
coinsoncloud.eu      
cloudmining.website
PBmining.com        
cloudminr.io        
grmining.com

[BitcoinExchangeIndia.com]

cex.io and pbmining is both good.. But I prefer pbmining..

bitcoincloudservice.com is a good one for me

Cloudminr sells at 0.0011/GHS and no maintenance costs, what is pbmining rate? You have to register to know the price

mh..i dont see the 0.0011/GHS..can you tell me how you get the price xD

0.0013/GHS if you buy less than 2000GHS
0.0011/GHS if you buy 2000GHS or more

It's in the FAQ (https://cloudminr.io/faq/) or in the BUY HASHRATE page after you registered

For cloudmining.website, it is always 0.001 BTC/Ghs, whatever u buy.

[picolo]

cex.io and pbmining is both good.. But I prefer pbmining..

bitcoincloudservice.com is a good one for me

Cloudminr sells at 0.0011/GHS and no maintenance costs, what is pbmining rate? You have to register to know the price

mh..i dont see the 0.0011/GHS..can you tell me how you get the price xD

0.0013/GHS if you buy less than 2000GHS
0.0011/GHS if you buy 2000GHS or more

It's in the FAQ (https://cloudminr.io/faq/) or in the BUY HASHRATE page after you registered

For cloudmining.website, it is always 0.001 BTC/Ghs, whatever u buy.

0.001/GHS is a good price but Cloudminr has no maintenance fee

[Coin_Master]

I don't get posts like these. All the negative comments about cloud mining, when its been proved that LTCgear and GAW ROI. Are the negative comments hardware sellers? If you are reading this and thinking about cloud mining, don't listen to posts like this. Research the companies and do the math. You will miss the boat otherwise. Cloud mining is the future, the small home mining ventures are being pushed out.

Most scrypt coins are paying 8 cents per MH per day or less.

Goldcoin - 8 cents
Litecoin  - 7 cents

Gawminers charge 8 cents per MH per day in maintenance fees, this will result in a zero payout.

Day 39 comparison of payments
GAW Waffle Hashlet                   0.00000000 BTC (No Payout)

Day 46 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 52  comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000456 BTC

Day 54 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 56 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 57 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 58 comparison of payments.
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000253 BTC

Day 61 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 62 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 67 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 68 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 69 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 71 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 72 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 73 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Anybody who says you could possibly make money or break even 'now' is dreaming.

Here is the full record of the payouts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=768931.0

Honest cloud mining providers have simply stopped accepting new customers

[picolo]

I don't get posts like these. All the negative comments about cloud mining, when its been proved that LTCgear and GAW ROI. Are the negative comments hardware sellers? If you are reading this and thinking about cloud mining, don't listen to posts like this. Research the companies and do the math. You will miss the boat otherwise. Cloud mining is the future, the small home mining ventures are being pushed out.

Most scrypt coins are paying 8 cents per MH per day or less.

Goldcoin - 8 cents
Litecoin  - 7 cents

Gawminers charge 8 cents per MH per day in maintenance fees, this will result in a zero payout.

Day 39 comparison of payments
GAW Waffle Hashlet                   0.00000000 BTC (No Payout)

Day 46 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 52  comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000456 BTC

Day 54 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 56 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 57 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 58 comparison of payments.
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000253 BTC

Day 61 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 62 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 67 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 68 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 69 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 71 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 72 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Day 73 comparison of payments
GAW Hashlet Waffle                   0.00000001 BTC

Anybody who says you could possibly make money or break even 'now' is dreaming.

Here is the full record of the payouts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=768931.0

Honest cloud mining providers have simply stopped accepting new customers

Genesis Mining seems even more expensive than cex.io where 1GHS=0.64$ with high maintenance fees.

New comers offer cheaper GHS because they have smaller structures and costs but you have to take a chance they are honest and that their business will last.

[oblixster]

Im not taking bets against ltcgear. See the link I provided, I do think they are very suspicious, but not enough so that I declare them a ponzi with confidence.

Here are a few I will take bets against:

  
CoIntellect.com      
coinsoncloud.eu      
cloudmining.website
PBmining.com        
cloudminr.io        
grmining.com

I've spent some money on PBmining contract and maybe was going to invest in cloudminr.io so I hope you are wrong about those two Hard to know in advance, not sure if PBmining is amongst those suspiciously low charging anymore @ 0.0014btc/GH currently.

[Puppet]

Im not taking bets against ltcgear. See the link I provided, I do think they are very suspicious, but not enough so that I declare them a ponzi with confidence.

Here are a few I will take bets against:

  
CoIntellect.com      
coinsoncloud.eu      
cloudmining.website
PBmining.com        
cloudminr.io        
grmining.com

I've spent some money on PBmining contract and maybe was going to invest in cloudminr.io so I hope you are wrong about those two Hard to know in advance, not sure if PBmining is amongst those suspiciously low charging anymore @ 0.0014btc/GH currently.

I dont base myself on price to determine if they are legit. I list the criteria in the post I linked:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860400.0

Feel free to apply them yourself and consider what the chances are pb or cloudminr are legitimate. IF you think there is a real chance, lets make a bet.

[oblixster]

Im not taking bets against ltcgear. See the link I provided, I do think they are very suspicious, but not enough so that I declare them a ponzi with confidence.

Here are a few I will take bets against:

  
CoIntellect.com      
coinsoncloud.eu      
cloudmining.website
PBmining.com        
cloudminr.io        
grmining.com

I've spent some money on PBmining contract and maybe was going to invest in cloudminr.io so I hope you are wrong about those two Hard to know in advance, not sure if PBmining is amongst those suspiciously low charging anymore @ 0.0014btc/GH currently.

I dont base myself on price to determine if they are legit. I list the criteria in the post I linked:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860400.0

Feel free to apply them yourself and consider what the chances are pb or cloudminr are legitimate. IF you think there is a real chance, lets make a bet.

No bets I find most cloud mining sites suspicious in one way or another. Not sure if I'd call some of those legit sites not being scams. If ROI was never even possible (because of maintenance fees and estimated difficulty increase) aren't those sites scams also? and the way many market themselves is like difficulty will never increase or even use old stats from mining months ago to deceive new customers. The whole cloud mining business seems a very dishonest one and hard to know where to invest. So judging from what everyone says it seems most legit ones will never ROI and the ones who will are all possible ponzi's

[picolo]

Im not taking bets against ltcgear. See the link I provided, I do think they are very suspicious, but not enough so that I declare them a ponzi with confidence.

Here are a few I will take bets against:

  
CoIntellect.com      
coinsoncloud.eu      
cloudmining.website
PBmining.com        
cloudminr.io        
grmining.com

I've spent some money on PBmining contract and maybe was going to invest in cloudminr.io so I hope you are wrong about those two Hard to know in advance, not sure if PBmining is amongst those suspiciously low charging anymore @ 0.0014btc/GH currently.

I dont base myself on price to determine if they are legit. I list the criteria in the post I linked:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860400.0

Feel free to apply them yourself and consider what the chances are pb or cloudminr are legitimate. IF you think there is a real chance, lets make a bet.

Nice list using your 7criterias, only 3 companies end up not having any points.

It all come down to taking a risk or not after studying the company you wish to invest in.

[Puppet]

If ROI was never even possible (because of maintenance fees and estimated difficulty increase) aren't those sites scams also?

No. Is the Red Cross a scam site because my donations dont ROI ?
Its a scam if they deceive you, dont provide what they promised. But an investment that doesnt achieve, or even can't achieve positive ROI is just a bad investment.

So judging from what everyone says it seems most legit ones will never ROI and the ones who will are all possible ponzi's

The ponzi's generally wont give you a profit either. IN fact they will on average cause a far greater loss than the legitimate sites.  They just appear profitable, right until the moment they run off with all your money.

[caga]

If it takes around 200 days to breakeven, and you are not investing in a ponzi site

, then wouldn't it be profitable on legit sites? as they offer cloudmining for longer terms?

Its just based on the calculation, but a 15 gh/s account of mine generated around 0.0005 BTC in 2 days.

I would certainly expect to get a good ROI on it.

[picolo]

If it takes around 200 days to breakeven, and you are not investing in a ponzi site, then wouldn't it be profitable on legit sites? as they offer cloudmining for longer terms?

200days taking into account the rise in difficulty or 200days with the current difficulty? Do you take into account maintenance fees? There is none on cloudminr but most cloudmining website have some.

When the difficulty rises, the revenue decreases.

[wunkbone]

Im not taking bets against ltcgear. See the link I provided, I do think they are very suspicious, but not enough so that I declare them a ponzi with confidence.

Here are a few I will take bets against:

  
CoIntellect.com      
coinsoncloud.eu      
cloudmining.website
PBmining.com        
cloudminr.io        
grmining.com

I've spent some money on PBmining contract and maybe was going to invest in cloudminr.io so I hope you are wrong about those two Hard to know in advance, not sure if PBmining is amongst those suspiciously low charging anymore @ 0.0014btc/GH currently.

I dont base myself on price to determine if they are legit. I list the criteria in the post I linked:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860400.0

Feel free to apply them yourself and consider what the chances are pb or cloudminr are legitimate. IF you think there is a real chance, lets make a bet.

I think your criteria is generally good indicators, however they are not all 100% sure either way. One think I would suggest adding to your criteria is a cloud mining company having a large number of obvioius shills (ltcgear would certainly meet this criteria - and they all respond to concerns almost the exact same way)

[Puppet]

I think your criteria is generally good indicators, however they are not all 100% sure either way.

Nothing gives 100% certainty, but you can be fairly confident that as long as scammers can make 100s or 1000s of BTC without complying with any of my criteria, no sane scammer is going to bother setting up an elaborate scam that complies to all, or or nearly all of them.

One think I would suggest adding to your criteria is a cloud mining company having a large number of obvioius shills (ltcgear would certainly meet this criteria - and they all respond to concerns almost the exact same way)

Thats far too subjective, and for the most part covered (and explained) by the "referral program" red flag.

[wunkbone]

One think I would suggest adding to your criteria is a cloud mining company having a large number of obvioius shills (ltcgear would certainly meet this criteria - and they all respond to concerns almost the exact same way)

Thats far too subjective, and for the most part covered (and explained) by the "referral program" red flag.

I guess this is fair however some cloud mining companies do have referral programs that give a much more reasonable payout for referrals that is generally in line with the cost of advertising.

I would say that any evaluation of a potential scam should use some kind of subjective criteria as a scammer could simply look at your criteria and work around it

[picolo]

One think I would suggest adding to your criteria is a cloud mining company having a large number of obvioius shills (ltcgear would certainly meet this criteria - and they all respond to concerns almost the exact same way)

Thats far too subjective, and for the most part covered (and explained) by the "referral program" red flag.

I guess this is fair however some cloud mining companies do have referral programs that give a much more reasonable payout for referrals that is generally in line with the cost of advertising.

I would say that any evaluation of a potential scam should use some kind of subjective criteria as a scammer could simply look at your criteria and work around it

A cloudmining operation could have a very generous referral system to grow fast hoping new referees will bring new customers and so on, new companies often have an unrealistic business plans with margins way to small.

I am sure some companies start as a real mining operations then turn scam.