..

[sgbett]

at various points in history, all of the above were once true.

"Nobody" wanting BTC right now does not mean nobody ever will.
Goods being priced in dollars now does not mean they always will be.

All bear posts state only one possible outcome, instead of accepting that the future is uncertain. My position in BTC absolutely re-enforces the fact that I don't assume its going to the moon, it assumes failure and insures me *just in case* it goes to the moon.

OK now I understand what you meant with the car/tv/telephone/computer.... the difference is that these things didn't exist, we were introduced to new things that has really changed the way we do thing, but bitcoin was introduced to replace something that we already have ( maybe broken)...well I agree that Bitcoin is more than a currency, but people already rely on their official currency, and currently Bitcoin is used mostly as an asset and is way far from being a currency, even if it would be used as a currency I don't see it dominating the world, because usually changing a currency require way more than mathematics and hashpower.


Take the Euro as an example, countries went from their currency to euro over night but preparation took years to enforce, and even after that, people took years to get use to it and kept converting value of things to their old currency, now when we say the world currency...just imagine that, one thing that I know for sure: "people agreed to not agree" .

horse -> car
cinema/radio -> tv
telegram/carrier pigeon/ham radio -> telephone
typewriter/calculator(etc) -> computer

mostly the new thing augments the old, in some cases it supplants. each thing stands on its own merits. btc may augment cash, it may supplant it, it may implode.

I don't see BTC replacing dollars. I do see it likely being cash OTI, and assuming it is then the ultimate size of that market is unknown. I assume its nonzero (I also lean towards it being larger than the current ~$5bn). I also assume systemic risk (to the BTC protocol) which is why I don't bet the farm. Based on these assumptions I take a sensible

Bitcoin might fail, the bears seem oblivious to the fact that this is only a possibility though and not a foregone conclusion. Bitcoin might succeed (at the height of the bull market, we have the bulltards that are equally as blind). The irony is that each group assumes that anyone not "with them" is in the other group. They miss a whole raft of mundane middle ground rational actors accumulating BTC when its cheap, hedging against corrections when its expensive and well positioned to benefit whatever happens, instead demanding that everyone BUY/SELL depending on whatever the dominant trend is.

I'm starting to think they are neither bull nor bear, but sheep.

[Skoupi]

Total investments in bitcoin businesses from vc are almost $1 billion this year alone...

These people invest in businesses instead of buying coins for 2 reasons
1. Bitcoin is a great technology and it is here to stay.
2. The market is very shallow and bulltards and beartards can move the market big time... They get panicked every time the hear the words China or Russia and get overly excited every time they hear the word paypal or whatever...

For now price is important only for day traders and speculators.

[glub0x]

but one day we have switched from (bone?) to something else. For some reason. Then we changed again and again
 the last notable was from gold backed to paper money. Things do change, sometimes for better sometimes not.
Fiat has developed industry backing it? So might bitcoin ... It doesn't even have to start from scratch, it can be incorporated for instance.

Esperanto didn't worked so well. Maybe bitcoin will follow the same path. who knows?
Allowing that bitcoin is superior, it might fail. But with the same assumption it might also succeed. Even 10% probability of success is huge and you have to play that.
If you do not play a game where you have 10% chance to do 30X you are hopeless

This is the main thing that made me bought bitcoin  in the first place (after reading satoshi's white paper). I would not forgive that to myself if it succeeds. I can accept to loose a few thousands euros, but not playing a game i feel with (very) positive odds ...

[sgbett]

I.. find you...  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
opin·ion noun \ə-ˈpin-yən\
 a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something : what someone thinks about a particular thing

That alone is sufficient to make my claim factual.

Your understanding of the word opinion seems to be flawed.

Its a fact that you have an opinion. Your opinion, however is not automatically a fact merely because you hold it.

[NotLambchop]

...
If you do not play a game where you have 10% chance to do 30X you are hopeless

This is the main thing that made me bought bitcoin  in the first place (after reading satoshi's white paper). I would not forgive that to myself if it succeeds. I can accept to loose a few thousands euros, but not playing a game i feel with (very) positive odds ...

How did you come up with those ridiculous numbers?
If I had a chance to [repeatedly] bet on those odds, I would do it.

[NotLambchop]

I.. find you...  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
opin·ion noun \ə-ˈpin-yən\
 a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something : what someone thinks about a particular thing

That alone is sufficient to make my claim factual.

Your understanding of the word opinion seems to be flawed.

Its a fact that you have an opinion. Your opinion, however is not automatically a fact merely because you hold it.

No.
"You are infantile and repulsive" <==opinion.
"NotLambchops finds you infantile and/or repulsive" <==statement of fact.

Now I'm also beginning to suspect that you're a bit slow, but that's neither here nor there.
Anyhow, isn't there some homework you should be doin' or vidya you could be playing?

[DeadCoin]

True, but all goods, services, your wage and taxes are priced in fiat,
if you don't express btc in fiat you don't even know what your purchasing power is.
What is the purchasing power of 1 btc? Oh right, you need fiat number even to comprehend the meaning of 1 btc.

Your analogies are trivial and unrelated to my point in lame attempt to somehow justify the bitcoin.

This is because for now fiat is more important. But things change.
The difference is that if poeple really wanted fiat in the first place bitcoin would not exist.
So what you want is purchasing power and means to keep it or transfer it.
Now we use fiat to price things, we will see how long that will hold.

What you guys fail to understand bitcoin is not a currency itself, it is just a tool for transacting currency. When you send someone 1 btc, or when you buy something  with bitcoin, what you're doing is you're sending him 320 dollars via bitcoin, you're sending him purchasing power of dollar.
Bitcoin is not independent of fiat.  Actually, fiat is what gives bitcoin a value.

That is correct, however BTC is also priced in GPB, EUR etc

You can argue that as the global currency everything is priced in USD. So GBP only buys you stuff because it has a dollar exchange rate. Its tenuous, but this is *your* logic...

Now the man in the street in the UK does not care about the USD value of his GBP. He just uses GBP.

Interestingly, if that same man travels to the USA, or to Europe. They convert their native currency to the local currency, so as they may transact, but in their head they typically do a quick reckoning whenever they see a local price to convert it to their native price so that they may get an intuitive understanding of what the local price actually means to them.

So the act of converting between one abstract currency to another is inherent. Now imagine the man in the street isn't on holiday, but has moved to the USA. How long before he starts thinking in dollars?

All of this demonstrates quite adequately that whilst your point that BTC has a dollar value is correct. What it also proves, which you won't like at all, is that if you consider the internet a "country" and BTC as its native currency (which is exactly what it is - read the white paper) then you have a situation where an economy will develop. That nascent economy has developed, whether you like it or not. You can argue from the rooftops that it is going to fail, but you cannot deny its existence.

The more you shout and the more the bitcoin economy develops, the more crazy you sound.

Ridiculous comparison. Your logic and comprehension are laughable. Just because Btc is priced in other currencies that doesn't make it same as them.  Any commodity or a good can be priced in other currencies but that doesn't make them a currency themselves.

People who live in United Kingdom need and want pound, it is a legal tender there, they're obliged to pay taxes in pound, they receive wages in pounds and everyone accepts them. Pound is regulated and backed by British central bank and government.
Bitcoin is not a legal tender, nothing is priced in it. It doesn't have a country, no backing, nobody thinks in bitcoin, nobody is obliged to use it, people are not eager to work for it.

It can be regarded as a some sort of a vehicle for currency transfer, even tough it's mostly used for speculation now.

[romneymoney]

All of this demonstrates quite adequately that whilst your point that BTC has a dollar value is correct. What it also proves, which you won't like at all, is that if you consider the internet a "country" and BTC as its native currency (which is exactly what it is - read the white paper) then you have a situation where an economy will develop. That nascent economy has developed, whether you like it or not. You can argue from the rooftops that it is going to fail, but you cannot deny its existence.

Stop being so confrontational and worrying so much about how retarded other people are and read this a few times.  It's truth.
It's impossible to have a discussion when people can't agree on the facts.

[sgbett]

I.. find you...  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
opin·ion noun \ə-ˈpin-yən\
 a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something : what someone thinks about a particular thing

That alone is sufficient to make my claim factual.

Your understanding of the word opinion seems to be flawed.

Its a fact that you have an opinion. Your opinion, however is not automatically a fact merely because you hold it.

No.
"You are infantile and repulsive" <==opinion.
"NotLambchops finds you infantile and/or repulsive" <==statement of fact.

Now I'm also beginning to suspect that you're a bit slow, but that's neither here nor there.
Anyhow, isn't there some homework you should be doin' or vidya you could be playing?

wow, you really can't tell the difference!

["Its a fact that you have an opinion."] = ["NotLambchops finds you infantile and/or repulsive" <==statement of fact.]

NotLambchops has an opinion!

[sgbett]

All of this demonstrates quite adequately that whilst your point that BTC has a dollar value is correct. What it also proves, which you won't like at all, is that if you consider the internet a "country" and BTC as its native currency (which is exactly what it is - read the white paper) then you have a situation where an economy will develop. That nascent economy has developed, whether you like it or not. You can argue from the rooftops that it is going to fail, but you cannot deny its existence.

Stop being so confrontational and worrying so much about how retarded other people are and read this a few times.  It's truth.
It's impossible to have a discussion when people can't agree on the facts.

you are right. its not really a discussion though, we're just playing the "arguing OTI" game

[glub0x]

...
If you do not play a game where you have 10% chance to do 30X you are hopeless

This is the main thing that made me bought bitcoin  in the first place (after reading satoshi's white paper). I would not forgive that to myself if it succeeds. I can accept to loose a few thousands euros, but not playing a game i feel with (very) positive odds ...

How did you come up with those ridiculous numbers?
If I had a chance to [repeatedly] bet on those odds, I would do it.

Guess what, you have, but it is a oneshot game
It depends on 2 things :
1) Your own forecast on bitcoin future.
2) Time

If you  think 1 is, 100% sure bitcoin will fail, then you cannot play the game. (Also if you think that and think that anybody thinking otherwise is plain dumb just say it you will save precious time for both of us.)
Otherwise you can probably play and go to step 2.
On step 2 you basically wait.

...
It can be regarded as a some sort of a vehicle for currency transfer, even tough it's mostly used for speculation now.

The important word was the last.

[NotLambchop]

I.. find you...  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
opin·ion noun \ə-ˈpin-yən\
 a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something : what someone thinks about a particular thing

That alone is sufficient to make my claim factual.

Your understanding of the word opinion seems to be flawed.

Its a fact that you have an opinion. Your opinion, however is not automatically a fact merely because you hold it.

No.
"You are infantile and repulsive" <==opinion.
"NotLambchops finds you infantile and/or repulsive" <==statement of fact.

Now I'm also beginning to suspect that you're a bit slow, but that's neither here nor there.
Anyhow, isn't there some homework you should be doin' or vidya you could be playing?

wow, you really can't tell the difference!

["Its a fact that you have an opinion."] = ["NotLambchops finds you infantile and/or repulsive" <==statement of fact.]

NotLambchops has an opinion!

I see I'd have an easier time trying to talk sense to a rusty shovel.  
Fine, stay stupid

[NotLambchop]

...
If you do not play a game where you have 10% chance to do 30X you are hopeless

This is the main thing that made me bought bitcoin  in the first place (after reading satoshi's white paper). I would not forgive that to myself if it succeeds. I can accept to loose a few thousands euros, but not playing a game i feel with (very) positive odds ...

How did you come up with those ridiculous numbers?
If I had a chance to [repeatedly] bet on those odds, I would do it.

Guess what, you have, but it is a oneshot game
It depends on 2 things :
1) Your own forecast on bitcoin future.
2) Time

If you  think 1 is, 100% sure bitcoin will fail, then you cannot play the game. (Also if you think that and think that anybody thinking otherwise is plain dumb just say it you will save precious time for both of us.)
Otherwise you can probably play and go to step 2.
On step 2 you basically wait.

...
It can be regarded as a some sort of a vehicle for currency transfer, even tough it's mostly used for speculation now.

The important word was the last.

Just to be clear, I never said that Bitcoin will fail. 
I also think claims of "bitcoin will go down to zero" are absurd.  Only a single d00d mining with a couple of netbooks would stop that from happening.
This is *not* a one-shot game.  I trade, each trade is a brand new game, with different odds.
My point is simply that claiming hard numbers like "10% chance to do 30X" is silly.

[sgbett]

True, but all goods, services, your wage and taxes are priced in fiat,
if you don't express btc in fiat you don't even know what your purchasing power is.
What is the purchasing power of 1 btc? Oh right, you need fiat number even to comprehend the meaning of 1 btc.

Your analogies are trivial and unrelated to my point in lame attempt to somehow justify the bitcoin.

This is because for now fiat is more important. But things change.
The difference is that if poeple really wanted fiat in the first place bitcoin would not exist.
So what you want is purchasing power and means to keep it or transfer it.
Now we use fiat to price things, we will see how long that will hold.

What you guys fail to understand bitcoin is not a currency itself, it is just a tool for transacting currency. When you send someone 1 btc, or when you buy something  with bitcoin, what you're doing is you're sending him 320 dollars via bitcoin, you're sending him purchasing power of dollar.
Bitcoin is not independent of fiat.  Actually, fiat is what gives bitcoin a value.

That is correct, however BTC is also priced in GPB, EUR etc

You can argue that as the global currency everything is priced in USD. So GBP only buys you stuff because it has a dollar exchange rate. Its tenuous, but this is *your* logic...

Now the man in the street in the UK does not care about the USD value of his GBP. He just uses GBP.

Interestingly, if that same man travels to the USA, or to Europe. They convert their native currency to the local currency, so as they may transact, but in their head they typically do a quick reckoning whenever they see a local price to convert it to their native price so that they may get an intuitive understanding of what the local price actually means to them.

So the act of converting between one abstract currency to another is inherent. Now imagine the man in the street isn't on holiday, but has moved to the USA. How long before he starts thinking in dollars?

All of this demonstrates quite adequately that whilst your point that BTC has a dollar value is correct. What it also proves, which you won't like at all, is that if you consider the internet a "country" and BTC as its native currency (which is exactly what it is - read the white paper) then you have a situation where an economy will develop. That nascent economy has developed, whether you like it or not. You can argue from the rooftops that it is going to fail, but you cannot deny its existence.

The more you shout and the more the bitcoin economy develops, the more crazy you sound.

Ridiculous comparison. Your logic and comprehension are laughable. Just because Btc is priced in other currencies that doesn't make it same as them.  Any commodity or a good can be priced in other currencies but that doesn't make them a currency themselves.

People who live in United Kingdom need and want pound, it is a legal tender there, they're obliged to pay taxes in pound, they receive wages in pounds and everyone accepts them. Pound is regulated and backed by British central bank and government.
Bitcoin is not a legal tender, nothing is priced in it. It doesn't have a country, no backing, nobody thinks in bitcoin, nobody is obliged to use it, people are not eager to work for it.

It can be regarded as a some sort of a vehicle for currency transfer, even tough it's mostly used for speculation now.

You're just saying what it is now, and ignoring what it might be? Your argument against bitcoin is rooted in maintaining the status quo. It's as if you haven't noticed what has been going on around you the past few decades. Technology, specifically the internet has subsumed so much of what we do. I cannot deny that money as a concept is deep rooted in the idea that fiat currency is king. Take a step back though, and look at how that currency is now represented. It's all numbers on screens, online banking. Credit/Debit cards. Go back 20 years it was cheques. Go back 20 more it was bills and coins.

Can you seriously with a straight face tell me that you are 100% confident that money is not going to take another evolutionary step? Can you categorically say that BTC is not it?

You speak of the british government - Why would HMRC bother with something that you claim to be so insignificant?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue-and-customs-brief-9-2014-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies/revenue-and-customs-brief-9-2014-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies

[sgbett]

I.. find you...  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
opin·ion noun \ə-ˈpin-yən\
 a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something : what someone thinks about a particular thing

That alone is sufficient to make my claim factual.

Your understanding of the word opinion seems to be flawed.

Its a fact that you have an opinion. Your opinion, however is not automatically a fact merely because you hold it.

No.
"You are infantile and repulsive" <==opinion.
"NotLambchops finds you infantile and/or repulsive" <==statement of fact.

Now I'm also beginning to suspect that you're a bit slow, but that's neither here nor there.
Anyhow, isn't there some homework you should be doin' or vidya you could be playing?

wow, you really can't tell the difference!

["Its a fact that you have an opinion."] = ["NotLambchops finds you infantile and/or repulsive" <==statement of fact.]

NotLambchops has an opinion!

I see I'd have an easier time trying to talk sense to a rusty shovel.  
Fine, stay stupid

*smooch* love you too x

[NotLambchop]

I.. find you...  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
opin·ion noun \ə-ˈpin-yən\
 a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something : what someone thinks about a particular thing

That alone is sufficient to make my claim factual.

Your understanding of the word opinion seems to be flawed.

Its a fact that you have an opinion. Your opinion, however is not automatically a fact merely because you hold it.

No.
"You are infantile and repulsive" <==opinion.
"NotLambchops finds you infantile and/or repulsive" <==statement of fact.

Now I'm also beginning to suspect that you're a bit slow, but that's neither here nor there.
Anyhow, isn't there some homework you should be doin' or vidya you could be playing?

wow, you really can't tell the difference!

["Its a fact that you have an opinion."] = ["NotLambchops finds you infantile and/or repulsive" <==statement of fact.]

NotLambchops has an opinion!

I see I'd have an easier time trying to talk sense to a rusty shovel.  
Fine, stay stupid

*smooch* love you too x

[glub0x]

My point is simply that claiming hard numbers like "10% chance to do 30X" is silly.

agreed, it is for illustration purpose ... Any poeple who put money in the game have to make his own calculation.

trading is playing again and again but not exactly the same game.

[abercrombie]

I come back to these forums every few months just to look.

Always the same angry losers that lost money due to their own incompetence and impatience.

..and the same paid troll outsourcers in Pakistan and India spamming their nonsense.

I'm sorry, MatTheCat and others like him. But if you buy into ANYTHING anticipating a 1000% return and didn't consider that you could potentially lose 50% or more over the short term, I don't know what to tell you. You have no business investing at all. You might as well be in a casino. Casinos exist for people like you.

Apparently I'm a "bulltard", "cultist" and "bagholder". I'll keep doing what I do, which is to acquire as many BTC as possible through arbitrage and Bitcoin related businesses.

You guys keep doing what you do: Being angry and bitter because you didn't get rich overnight with your 1 BTC investment.

I'll be back in a few months. Enjoy the ride, everyone.

Funny post, and subject title. 

Cultists were bagging on me in August for "selling so low" for an OTC trade I made back in August (600+).

Still bullish long term, but BTC is going to take bumps and bruises for a bit.

[fewcoins]

I come back to these forums every few months just to look.

Always the same angry losers that lost money due to their own incompetence and impatience.

..and the same paid troll outsourcers in Pakistan and India spamming their nonsense.

I'm sorry, MatTheCat and others like him. But if you buy into ANYTHING anticipating a 1000% return and didn't consider that you could potentially lose 50% or more over the short term, I don't know what to tell you. You have no business investing at all. You might as well be in a casino. Casinos exist for people like you.

Apparently I'm a "bulltard", "cultist" and "bagholder". I'll keep doing what I do, which is to acquire as many BTC as possible through arbitrage and Bitcoin related businesses.

You guys keep doing what you do: Being angry and bitter because you didn't get rich overnight with your 1 BTC investment.

I'll be back in a few months. Enjoy the ride, everyone.

Funny post, and subject title. 

Cultists were bagging on me in August for "selling so low" for an OTC trade I made back in August (600+).

Still bullish long term, but BTC is going to take bumps and bruises for a bit.

Everyone still knows this technology rocks... But don't say bullish longterm because that implies one day we might pass this same price level again. At the current time this thing is falling back to reality! Way before mt gox & their fabulous willy bot came on the scene!!

[inca]

I come back to these forums every few months just to look.

Always the same angry losers that lost money due to their own incompetence and impatience.

..and the same paid troll outsourcers in Pakistan and India spamming their nonsense.

I'm sorry, MatTheCat and others like him. But if you buy into ANYTHING anticipating a 1000% return and didn't consider that you could potentially lose 50% or more over the short term, I don't know what to tell you. You have no business investing at all. You might as well be in a casino. Casinos exist for people like you.

Apparently I'm a "bulltard", "cultist" and "bagholder". I'll keep doing what I do, which is to acquire as many BTC as possible through arbitrage and Bitcoin related businesses.

You guys keep doing what you do: Being angry and bitter because you didn't get rich overnight with your 1 BTC investment.

I'll be back in a few months. Enjoy the ride, everyone.

Funny post, and subject title. 

Cultists were bagging on me in August for "selling so low" for an OTC trade I made back in August (600+).

Still bullish long term, but BTC is going to take bumps and bruises for a bit.

Everyone still knows this technology rocks... But don't say bullish longterm because that implies one day we might pass this same price level again. At the current time this thing is falling back to reality! Way before mt gox & their fabulous willy bot came on the scene!!

I suppose the last year of infrastructure development passed you by. Oh and you are short.