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Author Topic: Definition of a Commodity & Are Bitcoins a Commodity?  (Read 12590 times)
MoonShadow
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August 17, 2010, 01:28:18 AM
 #41


To label Bitcoin a currency incurs a liabiliy, and hostile governments and organizations will gleefully use such liabilities against us: To promote bitcoin as money, cash, dollars or their commercial equivalents is nothing less than suicide when we are found to be tweaking the noses of the financial industry.


It doesn't matter what your or my opinion about it really is.  Bitcoin *is* a currency.  And to call it a commodity, which it is *not*, will offer any enemies more legal ammo than calling it what it is.  Calling it a commodity is *fraud*.

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I've called Bitcoin a commodity earlier in this thread, and I've defended the term. It's a perfect term for us to use:

"COMMODITY. In the most comprehensive sense, convenience, accommodation, profit, benefit, advantage, interest, commodiousness."

This is the first definition, right out of the weasel's own playbook!


A wonderful definition.  It's also completely wrong.  I don't even care where this came from, it's wrong.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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MoonShadow
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August 17, 2010, 01:31:11 AM
 #42

It seems to differ mostly in terms of "equivalence to the national currency" and "no interest".

How does it differ from a LETS regarding the "no interest" condition?  How does bitcoin imply interest without a bitcoin banker?

I looked up some of the terms used by the guy who coined the concept and term. He would consider coin generation positive interest and transaction fees negative interest.


Hmm.  Yes, the transaction fees as 'negative interest' I can agree with; coin generation as positive interest is a bit tricker since it doesn't require that there be any positive account intended to draw the interest.

Regardless, I can see the logic and I think that I understand your point.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
fresno
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August 17, 2010, 03:39:27 AM
 #43

Compelling argument, creighto.

MoonShadow
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August 17, 2010, 03:46:48 AM
 #44

Compelling argument, creighto.



I'm assuming that this was a sarcastic response, since I didn't make an argument.  I didn't make any argument, because I considered such an effort futile.  I am starting from a given that you do not accept, and you will cling to your interpretation no matter what I come up with. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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August 20, 2010, 03:56:44 AM
 #45

I replied in this thread what i consider bitcoin to be

http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=872.0

It is not currency,commodity or money of any kind.It is a tally system which was in use before the current monetary disaster we have now.It is a tally system not a coin,banknote,gold,silver,wampum,whales teeth or other currency.It is a tally system in as much as facebook dollars and linden dollars which are basically entries in a database to account for trading in goods.The difference with bitcoin is that it is a distributed rather than being owned by one website.

Don't use words to describe bitcoins that have special legalese meanings to them.We think they mean one thing but they actually mean something very different when read by lawyers.

mizerydearia
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August 20, 2010, 03:59:39 AM
 #46

Is "currency" a word to not use?

http://www.bitcoin.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bitcoin_vocabulary
fresno
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August 20, 2010, 12:19:45 PM
 #47


It is not currency,commodity or money of any kind.It is a tally system which was in use before the current monetary disaster we have now.It is a tally system not a coin,banknote,gold,silver,wampum,whales teeth or other currency.It is a tally system in as much as facebook dollars and linden dollars which are basically entries in a database to account for trading in goods.The difference with bitcoin is that it is a distributed rather than being owned by one website.

Don't use words to describe bitcoins that have special legalese meanings to them.We think they mean one thing but they actually mean something very different when read by lawyers.


Yes!

I think the analogy of a tally system is a good one. It can be used by the community to account for transactions, yet has no value itself. I think this is an important distinction to counter any future charges of running a "fraudulent money scheme". And you know that is going to happen.


"The term 'money' is synonymous with 'currency',.." People v. Miller, 292 IllApp 643, 11 NE2d 827. There is an impressively long list of court cites that say the same. I think it is a dangerous policy to imply that Bitcoin is currency, or money. And it is totally unnecessary. Why even go there?

mizerydearia
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August 20, 2010, 01:06:00 PM
 #48

Perhaps Satoshi should review this thread?  On main page:

Bitcoin P2P Cryptocurrency
Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer network based digital currency.
Peer-to-peer (P2P) means that there is no central authority to issue new money or keep track of transactions.
Transfer money easily through the Internet, without having to trust middlemen.
The limited inflation of the Bitcoin system’s money supply is distributed evenly (by CPU power) throughout the network, not monopolized by the banks.
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August 20, 2010, 04:42:45 PM
 #49

fresno, perhaps you would be kind enough to compile a list of 'banned' words for us?
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August 20, 2010, 05:10:28 PM
 #50

Perhaps Satoshi should review this thread?  On main page:

Bitcoin P2P Cryptocurrency
Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer network based digital currency.
Peer-to-peer (P2P) means that there is no central authority to issue new money or keep track of transactions.
Transfer money easily through the Internet, without having to trust middlemen.
The limited inflation of the Bitcoin system’s money supply is distributed evenly (by CPU power) throughout the network, not monopolized by the banks.

Yesss!

Bitcoin is a program, running in a p2p network, plus continuing management and improvements. That is all. It is not money. Why would anyone make such a wild claim? (Sorry Satoshi!)

A case can be made that Bitcoin is intended for "illegal money laundering", and that case has been prejudiced by some ill-advised claims made on this website and elsewhere.

Let us correct this error now!



Red
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August 20, 2010, 05:37:59 PM
 #51

This is a silly way to play semantic games, and it is spamming too many otherwise interesting threads.

Fresno, the game is simple. Just start a new thread and in your post write your best description of bitcoin for the uninitiated. Feel free to not use any words you don't want to use. If new people understand bitcoin, then you win. If new people go WTF? you lose.

Or start a thread with campfire stories about boogie men. Then we can all try to out do each other with our stories of righteous indignation and a persecution by the man. 
fresno
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August 20, 2010, 07:50:20 PM
 #52

Red: You seem a bit shallow. The answer to your question is:

"Bitcoin is a program, running in a p2p network, plus continuing management and improvements. That is all. It is not money."

You should be able the find it in the post just ahead of yours.

The rest of your post is disrespectful.
MoonShadow
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August 20, 2010, 08:05:26 PM
 #53

The rest of your post is disrespectful.


How?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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August 20, 2010, 08:46:44 PM
 #54

"Bitcoin is a program, running in a p2p network, plus continuing management and improvements. That is all. It is not money."
Let me be the first to say WTF? Not because your definition is not accurate but because it is pointless.

Your description matches tcp/ip, http, smtp, kazaa, limewire, bittorrent, and just about anything that is not paypal. How on earth is that useful?
mizerydearia
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August 21, 2010, 03:47:18 AM
 #55

and that case has been prejudiced by some ill-advised claims made on this website and elsewhere.
Let us correct this error now!

Elsewhere?  A direct link would be informative.  Or, is there a reason for secrecy?
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August 21, 2010, 05:30:25 AM
 #56

Elsewhere?  A direct link would be informative.  Or, is there a reason for secrecy?
They're far too numerous to list, starting with the name -- "Bitcoin" = "bit" + "coin".  It's a little late to be playing semantics, no?
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August 21, 2010, 06:02:13 AM
 #57

Elsewhere?  A direct link would be informative.  Or, is there a reason for secrecy?
They're far too numerous to list, starting with the name -- "Bitcoin" = "bit" + "coin".  It's a little late to be playing semantics, no?

You have a point. Smiley

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August 21, 2010, 02:48:56 PM
 #58

Elsewhere?  A direct link would be informative.  Or, is there a reason for secrecy?
They're far too numerous to list, starting with the name -- "Bitcoin" = "bit" + "coin".  It's a little late to be playing semantics, no?

No. I thought the description was just fine myself, and it WAS fine as far as descriptions go. But I soon realized 'Uh Oh'. It was loaded with landmines from a liability standpoint.

So, now that we are at that point, which is worse, to ignore reality, or to be a little late getting our act together?

"Bitcoin" is a coined word, with no previous definition (someone should check this), and can mean whatever we want it to mean. But calling the Bitcoin "cash" or "money" is inaccurate, and sticking it in the face of TPTB. Want to guess where the brave naysayers on this board will be when the SHTF?

mizerydearia: Start at the Bitcoin main page.



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August 21, 2010, 10:34:28 PM
 #59

@fresno

I totally agree with your argument re liability.  There are many statements on this forum that stick it to TPTB.  If the community were to take your suggested route, it'd be best to nuke this forum, and start one that's heavily moderated to eliminate inappropriate comments.

As I've written here ad nauseam, I'm not interested in Bitcoin as a better PayPal that would be acceptable to TPTB.  I'm interested in Bitcoin as part of net-based monetary systems that could replace government-backed and -controlled fiat currencies.  It could serve as "cryptogold", supplementing physical gold etc.  In order to play such a role, Bitcoin will need to survive attacks by governments and others with massive resources.  It will need allies in the tradecraft communities.
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August 22, 2010, 01:10:09 AM
 #60

@fresno

I totally agree with your argument re liability.  There are many statements on this forum that stick it to TPTB.  If the community were to take your suggested route, it'd be best to nuke this forum, and start one that's heavily moderated to eliminate inappropriate comments.

As I've written here ad nauseam, I'm not interested in Bitcoin as a better PayPal that would be acceptable to TPTB.  I'm interested in Bitcoin as part of net-based monetary systems that could replace government-backed and -controlled fiat currencies.  It could serve as "cryptogold", supplementing physical gold etc.  In order to play such a role, Bitcoin will need to survive attacks by governments and others with massive resources.  It will need allies in the tradecraft communities.


It would be best to do that now before it grows much more.I havent heard satoshi's opinion yet either.

An option to flag/report certain posts or threads and send them to the legal team (if there is such a thing) might be a better option.Just having moderators could lead to political issues.Perhaps those well versed in legal issues could volunteer for the legal team.All items removed should still be available for viewing somewhere to ensure openness.

Everyone here is aware of the implications so it would only be prudent to put something in place.Then if something does happen in future it can be pointed to as evidence that something was done about the issue.Better that than knowing it and doing nothing.Google recently won the youtube case against content owners because they had a process in  place for reviewing infringing material.Now that it has been brought up there is no protection to claim ignorance.
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