Definition of a Commodity & Are Bitcoins a Commodity?

[fresno]

We can make this into a healthy thing, without nuking the board and without rewriting history: We can discover the truth and change our ways openly.  Not a bad strategy, hey?

One complication: A responsibility has come up in my Real Life that will take me away until later next month. The things I'd like to change have been covered several times in my posts.

Bitcoin is simply a distributed system for keeping things straight. Nothing more. We have a healthy, growing community of traders and exchanges that will in their course do the things required to make a healthy Bitcoin economy.

I'll be checking in for the next couple of days, then not quite as often. Take care!

[FreeMoney]

@fresno

I totally agree with your argument re liability.  There are many statements on this forum that stick it to TPTB.  If the community were to take your suggested route, it'd be best to nuke this forum, and start one that's heavily moderated to eliminate inappropriate comments.

As I've written here ad nauseam, I'm not interested in Bitcoin as a better PayPal that would be acceptable to TPTB.  I'm interested in Bitcoin as part of net-based monetary systems that could replace government-backed and -controlled fiat currencies.  It could serve as "cryptogold", supplementing physical gold etc.  In order to play such a role, Bitcoin will need to survive attacks by governments and others with massive resources.  It will need allies in the tradecraft communities.

It would be best to do that now before it grows much more.I havent heard satoshi's opinion yet either.

An option to flag/report certain posts or threads and send them to the legal team (if there is such a thing) might be a better option.Just having moderators could lead to political issues.Perhaps those well versed in legal issues could volunteer for the legal team.All items removed should still be available for viewing somewhere to ensure openness.

Everyone here is aware of the implications so it would only be prudent to put something in place.Then if something does happen in future it can be pointed to as evidence that something was done about the issue.Better that than knowing it and doing nothing.Google recently won the youtube case against content owners because they had a process in  place for reviewing infringing material.Now that it has been brought up there is no protection to claim ignorance.

Come on, this is like taking the vowels out of the names of G_D. It is what it is regardless of what people say.

You're going to censor the board of references to bitcoin as money? So that later you can point to the fact that you tried to cover up the fact that it's a money? If it isn't a money, then just demonstrate that when you get hauled off. If you can't then showing where you tried to get everyone to hide the fact is not going to mean thing. If anything, you'll get conspiracy charges added. Good grief.

[fresno]

You're going to censor the board of references to bitcoin as money? So that later you can point to the fact that you tried to cover up the fact that it's a money? If it isn't a money, then just demonstrate that when you get hauled off. If you can't then showing where you tried to get everyone to hide the fact is not going to mean thing. If anything, you'll get conspiracy charges added. Good grief.

Good grief right back!

1. I never advocated censoring this board.
2. Your claim that Bitcoin is money is indefensible.
3. The rest of your statement is incoherent.

Somebody keep an eye on this guy while I'm gone.

[ichi]

You're going to censor the board of references to bitcoin as money? So that later you can point to the fact that you tried to cover up the fact that it's a money? If it isn't a money, then just demonstrate that when you get hauled off. If you can't then showing where you tried to get everyone to hide the fact is not going to mean thing. If anything, you'll get conspiracy charges added. Good grief.

Good grief right back!

1. I never advocated censoring this board.
2. Your claim that Bitcoin is money is indefensible.
3. The rest of your statement is incoherent.

Somebody keep an eye on this guy while I'm gone.

It was I who suggested deleting this forum, and replacing it with a moderated one.  The core developers could clarify that Bitcoin was never intended to be anonymous, or to be used as money, but rather as a zero-overhead system for incentivising shared services (or whatever).

Although I wrote that somewhat sarcastically, I'm beginning to think that the clarification is accurate.  That's admittedly extreme.  However, it'd be foolish to forget the e-gold lesson.

[mizerydearia]

@fresno

I totally agree with your argument re liability.  There are many statements on this forum that stick it to TPTB.  If the community were to take your suggested route, it'd be best to nuke this forum, and start one that's heavily moderated to eliminate inappropriate comments.

As I've written here ad nauseam, I'm not interested in Bitcoin as a better PayPal that would be acceptable to TPTB.  I'm interested in Bitcoin as part of net-based monetary systems that could replace government-backed and -controlled fiat currencies.  It could serve as "cryptogold", supplementing physical gold etc.  In order to play such a role, Bitcoin will need to survive attacks by governments and others with massive resources.  It will need allies in the tradecraft communities.

What kind of attacks or risks does that involve for Bitcoin users?

Should there be concern that many homes will be raided by swat teams?

Perhaps in such cases it is good to have an offsite backup of wallet files so that current income aren't lost and can be transferred to other addresses in the case of hardware being stolen/seized?

[Anonymous]

@fresno

I totally agree with your argument re liability.  There are many statements on this forum that stick it to TPTB.  If the community were to take your suggested route, it'd be best to nuke this forum, and start one that's heavily moderated to eliminate inappropriate comments.

As I've written here ad nauseam, I'm not interested in Bitcoin as a better PayPal that would be acceptable to TPTB.  I'm interested in Bitcoin as part of net-based monetary systems that could replace government-backed and -controlled fiat currencies.  It could serve as "cryptogold", supplementing physical gold etc.  In order to play such a role, Bitcoin will need to survive attacks by governments and others with massive resources.  It will need allies in the tradecraft communities.

What kind of attacks or risks does that involve for Bitcoin users?

Should there be concern that many homes will be raided by swat teams?

Perhaps in such cases it is good to have an offsite backup of wallet files so that current income aren't lost and can be transferred to other addresses in the case of hardware being stolen/seized?

You could have an application that monitors any changes to your wallet file and backs it up to the cloud .Something like carbonite which encrypts the files on the fly.I wonder if someone wants to build a dropbox plugin that does the job OR
You could use a program such as folderwatch http://majorgeeks.com/FolderWatch_d906.html which does the monitoring and use dropbox as the target for the backup.You could also install dropbox on a hidden remote computer attached to the internet and your wallet will  be synced automatically to it as well.


Folderwatch is $25 shareware but if you are concerned about your wallet it might be the best option for you.

[ichi]

@fresno

I totally agree with your argument re liability.  There are many statements on this forum that stick it to TPTB.  If the community were to take your suggested route, it'd be best to nuke this forum, and start one that's heavily moderated to eliminate inappropriate comments.

As I've written here ad nauseam, I'm not interested in Bitcoin as a better PayPal that would be acceptable to TPTB.  I'm interested in Bitcoin as part of net-based monetary systems that could replace government-backed and -controlled fiat currencies.  It could serve as "cryptogold", supplementing physical gold etc.  In order to play such a role, Bitcoin will need to survive attacks by governments and others with massive resources.  It will need allies in the tradecraft communities.

What kind of attacks or risks does that involve for Bitcoin users?

Should there be concern that many homes will be raided by swat teams?

Perhaps in such cases it is good to have an offsite backup of wallet files so that current income aren't lost and can be transferred to other addresses in the case of hardware being stolen/seized?

I doubt that users would be raided, unless there were evidence of seriously-illegal activity.  Those who run exchanges etc. might be at risk, OTOH, either through involvement (however unintended) with crime, or merely for violating KYC etc, laws.  Some might receive hard-to-refuse invitations to snitch.  Google e-gold, for example.

[fresno]

I doubt that users would be raided, unless there were evidence of seriously-illegal activity.  Those who run exchanges etc. might be at risk, OTOH, either through involvement (however unintended) with crime, or merely for violating KYC etc, laws.  Some might receive hard-to-refuse invitations to snitch.  Google e-gold, for example.

Remember Waco? Did you ever learn the original charges? Unlicensed gun sales! Hell, everybody in Texas trades unlicensed guns! Do you know how they justified torching a church and shooting the people as they escaped the fire? They indicted the survivors with every law in the book, and kept the jurors in a room until they came up with convictions on some diddley-squat charge, so the Times could headline they were all guilty.

You obviously have not observed how the DOJ goes after the low-hanging fruit, burying some small-time fapper under a flurry of impressive claims, hammering hard until one of them sticks. The news services love this game, it gets them big attention. It's a very effective way to intimidate the populace.

Why invite this sort of thing in the first place? Bitcoin CAN BE STRUCTURED TO AVOID THESE SORT OF CHARGES. Why needlessly expose ourselves to charges of illegality and money laundering? Let's get our shit into one sock and do things the right way.

I'm buried in work right now and can't do much. I've outlined several times on this site what needs to be done. Let's do it.

[MoonShadow]

[Why invite this sort of thing in the first place? Bitcoin CAN BE STRUCTURED TO AVOID THESE SORT OF CHARGES. Why needlessly expose ourselves to charges of illegality and money laundering? Let's get our shit into one sock and do things the right way.

I'm buried in work right now and can't do much. I've outlined several times on this site what needs to be done. Let's do it.

Maybe Bitcoin could be restructured to avoid the ire of TPTB in the US, maybe it can't.  Yet, to do that would certainly introduce complexities that would reduce it's usefulness as a medium of exchange.  Nor can it be restructured to avoid the ire of TPTB in all nations.  Bitcoin is not intended to be used in any particular country.  I am opposed to the idea of attempting to adjust to the perceived threat of politics for any one person or region.  If you fear the reaper, don't walk through the high wheat.

[MoonShadow]

Remember Waco? Did you ever learn the original charges? Unlicensed gun sales! Hell, everybody in Texas trades unlicensed guns! Do you know how they justified torching a church and shooting the people as they escaped the fire? They indicted the survivors with every law in the book, and kept the jurors in a room until they came up with convictions on some diddley-squat charge, so the Times could headline they were all guilty.

These examples just show how TPTB will find a reason regardless of whether or not it's the real reason.  There are so many laws today that it is literally impossible for anyone, including lawyers, to know for certain that they have not broken any.  Statisticly speaking, the average adult, law abiding American violates some criminal statue every day just going through life.  If they wish to stop Bitcoin, they will find some reason to try, or they will make up a new one.

[ichi]

@fresno

Don't get me started on Ruby Ridge, Waco et alia.  And I love Lard    I act based on my principals and values, with due consideration of the risks.  However, I never assume that something is safe because it's "legal".  What's "legal" is open to interpretation, and may change at any time.

[Anonymous]

@fresno

Don't get me started on Ruby Ridge, Waco et alia.  And I love Lard    I act based on my principals and values, with due consideration of the risks.  However, I never assume that something is safe because it's "legal".  What's "legal" is open to interpretation, and may change at any time.

Ed and Elaine Brown.....

If voting worked it would be illegal.....

[gumtree]

Bitcoin has intrinsic value = Commodity?

It's intrinsic value is the ownership of a mathematical solution key to a complex mathematical problem.  Other uses:  If extracted from the collective, it may be use to certify authenticity or use for encryption purposes.  It has intellectual property attached intrinsically.

Bitcoin is not representing anything of value (Not even a promise for repayment) = Not a currency?

A considerable amount of effort (complexity of problems solved to manufacture Bitcoin intellectual property) goes into producing Bitcoins (costs in CPU running time roughly equal to its intrinsic value - to counter act economic disparity which will cause opportunity profit for producing Bitcoins, bringing everything back into economic equilibrium) = Commodity?

[oaz7t]

Awareness of value is what ultimately gives it value,
what people are willing to put in to get a unit of bitcoin, be it time, fait money or labor.

Similarly applies to any commodity such as food, water, shelter, technology or any other commodity. Efforts put into creating/obtaining it and demand. So keeping it positive in the perceptions of people is a key to maintaining value in bitcoin.

[hastag_80]

I say that a commodity is a raw material of fairly uniform quality which is bought and sold in bulk and used directly to manufacture a wide variety of goods.

You can find definitions that say otherwise, but I consider them bastardizations of the true definition of a commodity.

I do not consider bitcoins to be a commodity.

What is your definition of a commodity? Do you consider bitcoins to be a commodity?

This topic was being discussed over in the animated movie thread and in these other threads which I just ran into again.

creighto, I concede that my gold coin example was a poor one since a gold coin is only made of gold and can still be used just as effectively as a raw material as gold bars. I was saying that the coin-ness of the of the gold coin is not a commodity, but yeah, bad example.

yes in my own perception bitcoin is a commodity because it is process of exchanging by means of trading the bitcoin to another alt coins to gain profit in the crypto world.bitcoin is an  investment and there are many process to earn your investment, and one of them is trade your asset bitcoin in to block chain market value that why we called this process a commodity or bargaining, in this process we must buy less value and sell it the higher price bid.