Bitcoin Forum
December 05, 2016, 06:59:33 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Definition of a Commodity & Are Bitcoins a Commodity?  (Read 12540 times)
fresno
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 92


View Profile
August 22, 2010, 05:51:23 AM
 #61

We can make this into a healthy thing, without nuking the board and without rewriting history: We can discover the truth and change our ways openly.  Not a bad strategy, hey?

One complication: A responsibility has come up in my Real Life that will take me away until later next month. The things I'd like to change have been covered several times in my posts.

Bitcoin is simply a distributed system for keeping things straight. Nothing more. We have a healthy, growing community of traders and exchanges that will in their course do the things required to make a healthy Bitcoin economy.

I'll be checking in for the next couple of days, then not quite as often. Take care!




Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1480964373
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480964373

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480964373
Reply with quote  #2

1480964373
Report to moderator
1480964373
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1480964373

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1480964373
Reply with quote  #2

1480964373
Report to moderator
FreeMoney
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


Strength in numbers


View Profile WWW
August 24, 2010, 01:38:16 PM
 #62

@fresno

I totally agree with your argument re liability.  There are many statements on this forum that stick it to TPTB.  If the community were to take your suggested route, it'd be best to nuke this forum, and start one that's heavily moderated to eliminate inappropriate comments.

As I've written here ad nauseam, I'm not interested in Bitcoin as a better PayPal that would be acceptable to TPTB.  I'm interested in Bitcoin as part of net-based monetary systems that could replace government-backed and -controlled fiat currencies.  It could serve as "cryptogold", supplementing physical gold etc.  In order to play such a role, Bitcoin will need to survive attacks by governments and others with massive resources.  It will need allies in the tradecraft communities.


It would be best to do that now before it grows much more.I havent heard satoshi's opinion yet either.

An option to flag/report certain posts or threads and send them to the legal team (if there is such a thing) might be a better option.Just having moderators could lead to political issues.Perhaps those well versed in legal issues could volunteer for the legal team.All items removed should still be available for viewing somewhere to ensure openness.

Everyone here is aware of the implications so it would only be prudent to put something in place.Then if something does happen in future it can be pointed to as evidence that something was done about the issue.Better that than knowing it and doing nothing.Google recently won the youtube case against content owners because they had a process in  place for reviewing infringing material.Now that it has been brought up there is no protection to claim ignorance.


Come on, this is like taking the vowels out of the names of G_D. It is what it is regardless of what people say.

You're going to censor the board of references to bitcoin as money? So that later you can point to the fact that you tried to cover up the fact that it's a money? If it isn't a money, then just demonstrate that when you get hauled off. If you can't then showing where you tried to get everyone to hide the fact is not going to mean thing. If anything, you'll get conspiracy charges added. Good grief.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
fresno
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 92


View Profile
August 24, 2010, 09:50:19 PM
 #63


You're going to censor the board of references to bitcoin as money? So that later you can point to the fact that you tried to cover up the fact that it's a money? If it isn't a money, then just demonstrate that when you get hauled off. If you can't then showing where you tried to get everyone to hide the fact is not going to mean thing. If anything, you'll get conspiracy charges added. Good grief.

Good grief right back!

1. I never advocated censoring this board.
2. Your claim that Bitcoin is money is indefensible.
3. The rest of your statement is incoherent.

Somebody keep an eye on this guy while I'm gone.

ichi
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
August 24, 2010, 10:21:41 PM
 #64


You're going to censor the board of references to bitcoin as money? So that later you can point to the fact that you tried to cover up the fact that it's a money? If it isn't a money, then just demonstrate that when you get hauled off. If you can't then showing where you tried to get everyone to hide the fact is not going to mean thing. If anything, you'll get conspiracy charges added. Good grief.

Good grief right back!

1. I never advocated censoring this board.
2. Your claim that Bitcoin is money is indefensible.
3. The rest of your statement is incoherent.

Somebody keep an eye on this guy while I'm gone.
It was I who suggested deleting this forum, and replacing it with a moderated one.  The core developers could clarify that Bitcoin was never intended to be anonymous, or to be used as money, but rather as a zero-overhead system for incentivising shared services (or whatever).

Although I wrote that somewhat sarcastically, I'm beginning to think that the clarification is accurate.  That's admittedly extreme.  However, it'd be foolish to forget the e-gold lesson.
mizerydearia
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 574



View Profile
August 25, 2010, 10:22:21 AM
 #65

@fresno

I totally agree with your argument re liability.  There are many statements on this forum that stick it to TPTB.  If the community were to take your suggested route, it'd be best to nuke this forum, and start one that's heavily moderated to eliminate inappropriate comments.

As I've written here ad nauseam, I'm not interested in Bitcoin as a better PayPal that would be acceptable to TPTB.  I'm interested in Bitcoin as part of net-based monetary systems that could replace government-backed and -controlled fiat currencies.  It could serve as "cryptogold", supplementing physical gold etc.  In order to play such a role, Bitcoin will need to survive attacks by governments and others with massive resources.  It will need allies in the tradecraft communities.

What kind of attacks or risks does that involve for Bitcoin users?

Should there be concern that many homes will be raided by swat teams?

Perhaps in such cases it is good to have an offsite backup of wallet files so that current income aren't lost and can be transferred to other addresses in the case of hardware being stolen/seized?
Anonymous
Guest

August 25, 2010, 11:10:05 AM
 #66

@fresno

I totally agree with your argument re liability.  There are many statements on this forum that stick it to TPTB.  If the community were to take your suggested route, it'd be best to nuke this forum, and start one that's heavily moderated to eliminate inappropriate comments.

As I've written here ad nauseam, I'm not interested in Bitcoin as a better PayPal that would be acceptable to TPTB.  I'm interested in Bitcoin as part of net-based monetary systems that could replace government-backed and -controlled fiat currencies.  It could serve as "cryptogold", supplementing physical gold etc.  In order to play such a role, Bitcoin will need to survive attacks by governments and others with massive resources.  It will need allies in the tradecraft communities.

What kind of attacks or risks does that involve for Bitcoin users?

Should there be concern that many homes will be raided by swat teams?

Perhaps in such cases it is good to have an offsite backup of wallet files so that current income aren't lost and can be transferred to other addresses in the case of hardware being stolen/seized?


You could have an application that monitors any changes to your wallet file and backs it up to the cloud .Something like carbonite which encrypts the files on the fly.I wonder if someone wants to build a dropbox plugin that does the job OR
You could use a program such as folderwatch http://majorgeeks.com/FolderWatch_d906.html which does the monitoring and use dropbox as the target for the backup.You could also install dropbox on a hidden remote computer attached to the internet and your wallet will  be synced automatically to it as well.


Folderwatch is $25 shareware but if you are concerned about your wallet it might be the best option for you.
ichi
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
August 25, 2010, 11:26:16 AM
 #67

@fresno

I totally agree with your argument re liability.  There are many statements on this forum that stick it to TPTB.  If the community were to take your suggested route, it'd be best to nuke this forum, and start one that's heavily moderated to eliminate inappropriate comments.

As I've written here ad nauseam, I'm not interested in Bitcoin as a better PayPal that would be acceptable to TPTB.  I'm interested in Bitcoin as part of net-based monetary systems that could replace government-backed and -controlled fiat currencies.  It could serve as "cryptogold", supplementing physical gold etc.  In order to play such a role, Bitcoin will need to survive attacks by governments and others with massive resources.  It will need allies in the tradecraft communities.

What kind of attacks or risks does that involve for Bitcoin users?

Should there be concern that many homes will be raided by swat teams?

Perhaps in such cases it is good to have an offsite backup of wallet files so that current income aren't lost and can be transferred to other addresses in the case of hardware being stolen/seized?

I doubt that users would be raided, unless there were evidence of seriously-illegal activity.  Those who run exchanges etc. might be at risk, OTOH, either through involvement (however unintended) with crime, or merely for violating KYC etc, laws.  Some might receive hard-to-refuse invitations to snitch.  Google e-gold, for example.
fresno
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 92


View Profile
August 25, 2010, 05:37:04 PM
 #68

I doubt that users would be raided, unless there were evidence of seriously-illegal activity.  Those who run exchanges etc. might be at risk, OTOH, either through involvement (however unintended) with crime, or merely for violating KYC etc, laws.  Some might receive hard-to-refuse invitations to snitch.  Google e-gold, for example.

Remember Waco? Did you ever learn the original charges? Unlicensed gun sales! Hell, everybody in Texas trades unlicensed guns! Do you know how they justified torching a church and shooting the people as they escaped the fire? They indicted the survivors with every law in the book, and kept the jurors in a room until they came up with convictions on some diddley-squat charge, so the Times could headline they were all guilty.

You obviously have not observed how the DOJ goes after the low-hanging fruit, burying some small-time fapper under a flurry of impressive claims, hammering hard until one of them sticks. The news services love this game, it gets them big attention. It's a very effective way to intimidate the populace.

Why invite this sort of thing in the first place? Bitcoin CAN BE STRUCTURED TO AVOID THESE SORT OF CHARGES. Why needlessly expose ourselves to charges of illegality and money laundering? Let's get our shit into one sock and do things the right way.

I'm buried in work right now and can't do much. I've outlined several times on this site what needs to be done. Let's do it.



MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1666



View Profile
August 25, 2010, 06:00:05 PM
 #69

[Why invite this sort of thing in the first place? Bitcoin CAN BE STRUCTURED TO AVOID THESE SORT OF CHARGES. Why needlessly expose ourselves to charges of illegality and money laundering? Let's get our shit into one sock and do things the right way.

I'm buried in work right now and can't do much. I've outlined several times on this site what needs to be done. Let's do it.


Maybe Bitcoin could be restructured to avoid the ire of TPTB in the US, maybe it can't.  Yet, to do that would certainly introduce complexities that would reduce it's usefulness as a medium of exchange.  Nor can it be restructured to avoid the ire of TPTB in all nations.  Bitcoin is not intended to be used in any particular country.  I am opposed to the idea of attempting to adjust to the perceived threat of politics for any one person or region.  If you fear the reaper, don't walk through the high wheat.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1666



View Profile
August 25, 2010, 08:36:59 PM
 #70


Remember Waco? Did you ever learn the original charges? Unlicensed gun sales! Hell, everybody in Texas trades unlicensed guns! Do you know how they justified torching a church and shooting the people as they escaped the fire? They indicted the survivors with every law in the book, and kept the jurors in a room until they came up with convictions on some diddley-squat charge, so the Times could headline they were all guilty.


These examples just show how TPTB will find a reason regardless of whether or not it's the real reason.  There are so many laws today that it is literally impossible for anyone, including lawyers, to know for certain that they have not broken any.  Statisticly speaking, the average adult, law abiding American violates some criminal statue every day just going through life.  If they wish to stop Bitcoin, they will find some reason to try, or they will make up a new one.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
ichi
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
August 25, 2010, 10:11:50 PM
 #71

@fresno

Don't get me started on Ruby Ridge, Waco et alia.  And I love Lard  Wink  I act based on my principals and values, with due consideration of the risks.  However, I never assume that something is safe because it's "legal".  What's "legal" is open to interpretation, and may change at any time.
Anonymous
Guest

August 26, 2010, 11:53:06 AM
 #72

@fresno

Don't get me started on Ruby Ridge, Waco et alia.  And I love Lard  Wink  I act based on my principals and values, with due consideration of the risks.  However, I never assume that something is safe because it's "legal".  What's "legal" is open to interpretation, and may change at any time.

Ed and Elaine Brown..... Sad

If voting worked it would be illegal.....

gumtree
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 15


View Profile
September 09, 2010, 11:12:15 AM
 #73

Bitcoin has intrinsic value = Commodity?

It's intrinsic value is the ownership of a mathematical solution key to a complex mathematical problem.  Other uses:  If extracted from the collective, it may be use to certify authenticity or use for encryption purposes.  It has intellectual property attached intrinsically.

Bitcoin is not representing anything of value (Not even a promise for repayment) = Not a currency?

A considerable amount of effort (complexity of problems solved to manufacture Bitcoin intellectual property) goes into producing Bitcoins (costs in CPU running time roughly equal to its intrinsic value - to counter act economic disparity which will cause opportunity profit for producing Bitcoins, bringing everything back into economic equilibrium) = Commodity?
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!