GAWMiners.com Hash Marketplace- AVOID! (See update)

[MrGreenHat]

Im surprised no one is upset about the fact that they have dropped prices on ONLY  the hashlets that can be sold in the marketplace by about $2 for each one. Now, anyone who was trying to sell their hashlet and get a decent amount back for it can expect to get even less. Is it not obvious to anyone but me what these guys are doing?

[BTCfan668]

sadly , sounds the same as if you sold 70 litecoin for the wrong price and someone snatched it up.

It's not quite like that, is it? If you sell LTC at a proper exchange that has decent market depth and proper order matching the worst thing that could happen is that you would sell it at the highest bid price, but not at a 90% or 99% discount as happened with some hashlet sales. But that is not the model Zen chose for its marketplace, i.e. there are no bids, just "for sale" listings. It's more comparable to e.g. eBay or craigslist than to a currency exchange. However on eBay or craigslist the seller has more time to decide to back out of the transaction - perhaps at the expense of bad feedback but still. Zen marketplace seems rushed and poorly designed for its intended use.

The difference is that there are different sizes and types of hashlets and the markets is not deep enough so that this would be possible. Also the differences between the types of hashlets is small enough so that most people will not case what kind they get, only the price and the hashrate, however the types do make a big difference to gaw, so this is why they have the market setup the way they do.

If gaw were to allow the OP to cancel his sale after the offer was filled then the buyer would have an issue with gaw because they would not be able to take advantage of a good deal they found and paid for

[Snipe85]

I'm sure there would be plenty of demand if they let buyers put bids in. Or if it's a marketplace then the seller should have the last word whether to let the item go when a buyer shows up with the money. Now it has the worst features of both concepts.

There's always some room for improvement. Maybe the owners will read this and make it more noob friendly.

Anyway, this doesn't change anything for MrGreenHat. He still made a mistake and wasn't scammed by the site!

If gaw were to allow the OP to cancel his sale after the offer was filled then the buyer would have an issue with gaw because they would not be able to take advantage of a good deal they found and paid for

+1

Somebody already made a topic with a similar claim.  If they refund 1 human error people will just be more careless. Why confirm the price if you can get a refund every time?

[suchmoon]

sadly , sounds the same as if you sold 70 litecoin for the wrong price and someone snatched it up.

It's not quite like that, is it? If you sell LTC at a proper exchange that has decent market depth and proper order matching the worst thing that could happen is that you would sell it at the highest bid price, but not at a 90% or 99% discount as happened with some hashlet sales. But that is not the model Zen chose for its marketplace, i.e. there are no bids, just "for sale" listings. It's more comparable to e.g. eBay or craigslist than to a currency exchange. However on eBay or craigslist the seller has more time to decide to back out of the transaction - perhaps at the expense of bad feedback but still. Zen marketplace seems rushed and poorly designed for its intended use.

Finally, someone who sees my point. You are exactly right. I truly believe that GAWMiners.com intentionally has made their "marketplace" confusing so that they can profit off of this exact kind of issue. I am almost certain that it wasn't another GAWMiners.com customer who got my 70 MH's of zen hashlets for $18.90, I believe GAWMiners.com themselves probably has some kind of script running to take advantage of opportunities such as the one I mistakenly provided for them. I have not received ANY response from "Eric", the guy who was supposed to contact me after the "bitcoin conference in vegas" according to the woman I spoke with at GAWMiners telephone support. I also filed a "ticket" and NOTHING. So basically, they haven't even responded to me, other than the first time I called them (within 5 minutes of the $1400 mistake), and the woman told me there was nothing that could be done, but when I suggested that there certainly was something that could be done and that I needed to speak to someone at the company who could actually help me, she put me on hold for five minutes and said "I emailed Eric your contact info and he will be in touch A.S.A.P.".

I doubt it's intentional, more likely just sloppy/rushed design and coding. Just a week or two ago they had a major "mea culpa" moment and promised to not release untested code anymore, but they referred mostly to unit/functional testing. I haven't seen usability testing being addressed.

[suchmoon]

sadly , sounds the same as if you sold 70 litecoin for the wrong price and someone snatched it up.

It's not quite like that, is it? If you sell LTC at a proper exchange that has decent market depth and proper order matching the worst thing that could happen is that you would sell it at the highest bid price, but not at a 90% or 99% discount as happened with some hashlet sales. But that is not the model Zen chose for its marketplace, i.e. there are no bids, just "for sale" listings. It's more comparable to e.g. eBay or craigslist than to a currency exchange. However on eBay or craigslist the seller has more time to decide to back out of the transaction - perhaps at the expense of bad feedback but still. Zen marketplace seems rushed and poorly designed for its intended use.

The difference is that there are different sizes and types of hashlets and the markets is not deep enough so that this would be possible. Also the differences between the types of hashlets is small enough so that most people will not case what kind they get, only the price and the hashrate, however the types do make a big difference to gaw, so this is why they have the market setup the way they do.

If gaw were to allow the OP to cancel his sale after the offer was filled then the buyer would have an issue with gaw because they would not be able to take advantage of a good deal they found and paid for

An exchange-type model would be driven by supply and demand, if there is no demand AT ALL the seller wouldn't be able to sell, but the OP sold hashlets (albeit at a very very low price), so there is demand. Making buyer bids available wouldn't make it worse than it is now, and in cases where there is demand it would make it much better for both sides. Exchanges routinely deal with hundreds or thousands of different assets, a few types of hashlets shouldn't be a problem. However if GAW prefers to stick with the "marketplace" model and not "exchange" - see below.

Price errors are not "good deals". Yes, it's the sellers fault. No, it's not wrong to allow the seller to cancel the sale in the current Zen marketplace model, which is more like eBay, Amazon, craigslist, or your local flea market, ALL of which allow that. Yes, the buyer would be unhappy. There are ways to deal with that too, if GAW wanted to make this a civilized marketplace. E.g. non-refundable listing or transaction fees.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that it's not necessary to invent anything new - there are proven models that work, and GAW also has the advantage to learn from mistakes of others. Instead they're choosing to make their own mistakes and punt the responsibility on users. Not cool.

[Gibcity]

I'm sure they will do something to help you out but in the end it was your fault. You made a mistake and want the company to pay for your mistake. If I have learned anything with bitcoin it's always double, tripple check what you are about to do because if you make a mistake it's more than likely gone forever. Guess this is just a expensive way to learn a lesson.

[donpablo]

I went to the ATM to withdraw $1500 but accidentally lost it..

Now who is the dumb ass here.. me or the bank...?

[Xandrah]

I went to the ATM to withdraw $1500 but accidentally lost it..

Now who is the dumb ass here.. me or the bank...?

+1

[eoakland]

Im surprised no one is upset about the fact that they have dropped prices on ONLY  the hashlets that can be sold in the marketplace by about $2 for each one. Now, anyone who was trying to sell their hashlet and get a decent amount back for it can expect to get even less. Is it not obvious to anyone but me what these guys are doing?

"Everything changes in October"....yep, our ROI.  I have been trying to dump my account for a bit.  I have been upset by the NiceHash fiasco. 

[btc-facebook]

sadly , sounds the same as if you sold 70 litecoin for the wrong price and someone snatched it up.

It's not quite like that, is it? If you sell LTC at a proper exchange that has decent market depth and proper order matching the worst thing that could happen is that you would sell it at the highest bid price, but not at a 90% or 99% discount as happened with some hashlet sales. But that is not the model Zen chose for its marketplace, i.e. there are no bids, just "for sale" listings. It's more comparable to e.g. eBay or craigslist than to a currency exchange. However on eBay or craigslist the seller has more time to decide to back out of the transaction - perhaps at the expense of bad feedback but still. Zen marketplace seems rushed and poorly designed for its intended use.

The difference is that there are different sizes and types of hashlets and the markets is not deep enough so that this would be possible. Also the differences between the types of hashlets is small enough so that most people will not case what kind they get, only the price and the hashrate, however the types do make a big difference to gaw, so this is why they have the market setup the way they do.

If gaw were to allow the OP to cancel his sale after the offer was filled then the buyer would have an issue with gaw because they would not be able to take advantage of a good deal they found and paid for

An exchange-type model would be driven by supply and demand, if there is no demand AT ALL the seller wouldn't be able to sell, but the OP sold hashlets (albeit at a very very low price), so there is demand. Making buyer bids available wouldn't make it worse than it is now, and in cases where there is demand it would make it much better for both sides. Exchanges routinely deal with hundreds or thousands of different assets, a few types of hashlets shouldn't be a problem. However if GAW prefers to stick with the "marketplace" model and not "exchange" - see below.

Price errors are not "good deals". Yes, it's the sellers fault. No, it's not wrong to allow the seller to cancel the sale in the current Zen marketplace model, which is more like eBay, Amazon, craigslist, or your local flea market, ALL of which allow that. Yes, the buyer would be unhappy. There are ways to deal with that too, if GAW wanted to make this a civilized marketplace. E.g. non-refundable listing or transaction fees.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that it's not necessary to invent anything new - there are proven models that work, and GAW also has the advantage to learn from mistakes of others. Instead they're choosing to make their own mistakes and punt the responsibility on users. Not cool.

There is really not enough demand so that it would make sense to have bids listed on their exchange/marketplace/whatever you want to call it. Having bids listed would result in sellers selling for much less then what their hashlets are worth and GAW would have a hard time selling directly to the customer in the first place.

I believe that the OP did have the option of canceling his order however it was filled too quickly for him to be able to cancel. Buyers have the option of sorting by price per MH so someone likely had sorted by this way, saw his order and quickly purchased.

I have also sold on gaw and it takes a lot to create a sell order, you have to click several times, so the OP was either not paying attention to what he was doing or is trying to scam GAW to give him a refund (while keeping the buy order on his other account)

[suchmoon]

There is really not enough demand so that it would make sense to have bids listed on their exchange/marketplace/whatever you want to call it. Having bids listed would result in sellers selling for much less then what their hashlets are worth and GAW would have a hard time selling directly to the customer in the first place.

How do you know how much demand is there and how much would be "enough"? And how someone placing a buy order would force a seller to sell at a lower price? Sellers place "sell" orders, buyers place "buy" orders, sale occurs if they meet. As it is now, sellers place "sell" orders in the dark, if they guess the demand or make a horrid snafu, they might sell. Why would more transparency be a bad thing here - I don't get it.

But as I said above, if the "exchange" logic is not acceptable, there is no reason to NOT allow the seller to back out of the transaction, seller's fault or not. A simple "Accept" or "Decline" option after the buyer puts money into escrow would solve most of these "fat finger" or "brain fart" issues.

As for GAW sales, they get 10% of each marketplace sale so making it work properly would help with that too.

[bitgeek]

From hashtalk announcement:

We’ve Added a Confirmation Screen on ZenCloud Sales
We’ve gone to work to ensure every seller has time to double check all the details of their sell order before they list their Hashlets on the marketplace. With the next ZenCloud update, you will see a confirmation screen when you attempt to list your Hashlet for sale. You will have to confirm the sale before your Hashlet is added and can be bought by another user.

But sellers are getting more than just that. Added security is nice, but openness and transparency is just as important. So now, I’m proud to say that…

The Hashlet Marketplace Now Shows Seller Names & Seller’s Custom Message
We’ve reached out to many of you on this feature and the conclusion is clear. You want an active, community driven marketplace that’s very different from traditional stock markets.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

GAW has actually scammed me.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=818650.0

[maku]

That red color you chose to make it more visible harmonizes with your trust.
I could personally congratulate them for abusing thieves like you.

[Mapuo]

From hashtalk announcement:

We’ve Added a Confirmation Screen on ZenCloud Sales
We’ve gone to work to ensure every seller has time to double check all the details of their sell order before they list their Hashlets on the marketplace. With the next ZenCloud update, you will see a confirmation screen when you attempt to list your Hashlet for sale. You will have to confirm the sale before your Hashlet is added and can be bought by another user.

But sellers are getting more than just that. Added security is nice, but openness and transparency is just as important. So now, I’m proud to say that…

The Hashlet Marketplace Now Shows Seller Names & Seller’s Custom Message
We’ve reached out to many of you on this feature and the conclusion is clear. You want an active, community driven marketplace that’s very different from traditional stock markets.

Are you paid by GAW?

[bitgeek]

My hashlet payments are just fine if that's what you're asking.

[Come-In-Behind]

This was your fault... and you think GAWminers.com should be held responsible for your stupid mistake??  I hope no one actually listens to OP, such a fucking idiot.

[crazy-pilot]

There is really not enough demand so that it would make sense to have bids listed on their exchange/marketplace/whatever you want to call it. Having bids listed would result in sellers selling for much less then what their hashlets are worth and GAW would have a hard time selling directly to the customer in the first place.

How do you know how much demand is there and how much would be "enough"? And how someone placing a buy order would force a seller to sell at a lower price? Sellers place "sell" orders, buyers place "buy" orders, sale occurs if they meet. As it is now, sellers place "sell" orders in the dark, if they guess the demand or make a horrid snafu, they might sell. Why would more transparency be a bad thing here - I don't get it.

But as I said above, if the "exchange" logic is not acceptable, there is no reason to NOT allow the seller to back out of the transaction, seller's fault or not. A simple "Accept" or "Decline" option after the buyer puts money into escrow would solve most of these "fat finger" or "brain fart" issues.

As for GAW sales, they get 10% of each marketplace sale so making it work properly would help with that too.

When a seller places an offer on the market place they are essentially agreeing to "accept" any bid at the price they are offering. The GAW marketplace is also not a site that people will regularly log into and the same goes with the zen portal as everything is really automated and there are no setting to adjust, and nothing to really get an update on. All you really have to do is withdraw your money every so often assuming that you do have this set to automatically happen. If a seller needs to confirm a sale then he could potentially delay a sale long enough to see how the difficulty will change, potentially making a sale at a certain price more or less attractive to him. If a sale is not attractive then he cancels the order and the buyer looses out, if the sale is more attractive, then by default it is now less attractive to the buyer, and the seller confirms the sell and the buyer looses.

[suchmoon]

When a seller places an offer on the market place they are essentially agreeing to "accept" any bid at the price they are offering. The GAW marketplace is also not a site that people will regularly log into and the same goes with the zen portal as everything is really automated and there are no setting to adjust, and nothing to really get an update on. All you really have to do is withdraw your money every so often assuming that you do have this set to automatically happen. If a seller needs to confirm a sale then he could potentially delay a sale long enough to see how the difficulty will change, potentially making a sale at a certain price more or less attractive to him. If a sale is not attractive then he cancels the order and the buyer looses out, if the sale is more attractive, then by default it is now less attractive to the buyer, and the seller confirms the sell and the buyer looses.

There could be reasonable timeframe, e.g. 24 hours to confirm or the sale is auto-cancelled, and a rating system to deal with deadbeats.

I don't like it at all, I'd much prefer an "exchange" interface, but a lot of posters here and on HT seem to be convinced that Zen marketplace is more comparable to e.g. eBay (both by function and by the fee amount) and not to e.g. Cryptsy. And on places like eBay the seller makes the final decision whether to deliver the product to a specific buyer, so it seems appropriate to have the same kind on seller protection on Zen.

[suchmoon]

So here is an interesting moral dilemma. It looks like GAW may have sent out 25 MH/s Prime activation codes instead of 1 MH/s. Some users activated them and dumped them on the market. GAW halted withdrawals to sort this out. At the time of this posting the final outcome is not yet known, but in the light of MrGreenHat's problem and other similar incidents, what would be the right solution:

a) let it be as it is - all sales are final, GAW made an error, their problem - just like many in this thread were saying it's the seller's problem if he/she fatfingers the wrong price. Consistent with GAW's stance on user-inflicted pricing errors, right?

or

b) Try to make it how it should have been if the activation code was correct. E.g. confiscate the funds from the proceeds of the 25 MH/s sale and put 1 MH/s back into seller's account. Or remove 24 MH/s from the accounts that haven't sold them yet. But what to do with the purchaser? Take away their cheap Primes and refund? But the purchaser didn't do anything wrong, it wasn't too good to be true, perhaps 20-25% cheaper than usual. Or what if the seller withdrew funds before being caught?

Any other options?

https://hashtalk.org/topic/11685/market-update