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Author Topic: Why I think Pantera Capital is wrong in their $4.2 million/BTC estimate  (Read 2872 times)
lucasjkr (OP)
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October 08, 2014, 09:12:06 PM
 #1

Link to formatted story (RECOMMENDED):
http://www.dioxidized.com/2014/10/08/pantera-capital-says-a-single-bitcoin-could-be-worth-4-2-million-hold-your-horses-i-say/


Copy/Paste (not sure what the result will be, plus its over 2000 words!):

<img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-629" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/bitcoin-75px_featured.png" alt="bitcoin-75px_featured" width="75" height="75" />The other day, a firm by the name of <a href="https://panteracapital.com/">Pantera Capital</a> released their rather bullish assessment of bitcoin's potential titled <a href="https://cdn.panteracapital.com/wp-content/uploads/Bitcoin-vs-Gold.pdf">"Gold Versus Bitcoin As A Store Of Value"</a>, which estimated that the future value of a single bitcoin could exceed $4 million ($4,291,060 if you want to be precise), which was released to an <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2imk7q/pantera_capital_what_could_bitcoin_be_worth/">extremely receptive audience on Reddit</a>.

I feel it's important to note that while it took me some time to come around to bitcoin (a friend first mentioned it to me in the 2010 or 2011 time-frame, to which I essentially just rolled my eyes and said "that's nice"), I have since seen some of the light and do think/will agree that bitcoin does indeed have a future. With that said, no matter how many mental leaps I make, I can't come close to agreeing with Pantera's assessment of the value of the technology.

<!--more-->

<a id="Atlantic" name="Atlantic"></a>Strangely, on the first page of the report, by quoting an article titled <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the-gold-standard-is-the-worlds-worst-economic-idea-in-2-charts/261552/">"Why the Gold Standard Is the World's Worst Economic Idea"</a>, by <a href="https://twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma">Matthew O'Brien</a> from the <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com">Atlantic</a>, Pantera makes a rather strong argument FOR fiat currencies. That quote can be summarized as follows:
<p style="padding-left: 60px;"><em>Exactly zero economists endorsed [returning to the gold standard] in a recent poll ... It <strong>prevents the central bank from fighting recessions</strong> by outsourcing monetary policy decisions to how much gold we have ... When we peg the dollar to gold we have to raise interest rates when gold is scarce, regardless of the state of the economy. <strong>This policy inflexibility was the major cause of the Great Depression</strong>, as governments were forced to tighten policy at the worst possible moment. <strong>It's no coincidence that the sooner a country abandoned the gold standard, the sooner it began recovering</strong>.”</em></p>
Pantera continues, explaining in their own words that <em>"inflation (and deflation) was much worse under the gold standard than it has been since"</em>, and that a return to such would not lead to any form of price stability.

So far, in their argument for bitcoin, Pantera has explained that the root cause of <a href="http://www.history.com/topics/great-depression">Great Depression</a> was due to the <a href="http://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/1999/march/monetary-policy-and-the-great-crash-of-1929-a-bursting-bubble-or-collapsing-fundamentals/">monetary inflexibility</a> (of course, <a href="http://www.freedomworks.org/content/debunking-myths-great-depression">others disagree with that assessment</a>) that was imposed on countries who operated under the gold standard, that the sooner a nation abandoned the gold standard in favor of fiat currency, the sooner they recovered from the Depression, and that both inflation and depression have been far more pronounced when monetary policy is dictated by the supply of a scarce resource. While factual, I'd expect a pro-bitcoin article to gloss over such details, not emphasize them.

[caption id="attachment_794" align="aligncenter" width="500"]<a href="https://bitcointalk.org/annoyance.php"><img class="size-full wp-image-794" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/bitcoins.jpg" alt="Physical bitcoins by Casascius, because every article about bitcoin needs a picture of them." width="500" height="285" /></a> <a href="https://bitcointalk.org/annoyance.php">Physical bitcoins by Casascius</a>, because every article about bitcoin needs a picture of them.[/caption]

<strong>But all that is just an aside, let me continue...</strong>

Citing the <a href="http://www.gold.org">World Gold Council</a>, Pantera shows that from 2010 through 2013, world-wide demand for gold amounted to 17,500 metric tons, of which 8,400 tons were used for jewelry, 5,900 tons were purchased for investment purposes, 1,600 tons in industry, 170 tons for dentistry and 1,500 tons were purchased by central banks (if you're using a calculator, I'll admit that the numbers won't total correctly, as I did some rounding).

<strong>Jewelry is not an investment in gold...</strong>

Pantera assumes gold jewelry to be an investment and argues that by moving their wealth from gold jewelry to bitcoin, and Indian family's (without access to banks, but presumably with access to the internet) wealth would be much safer.

[caption id="attachment_795" align="aligncenter" width="512"]<a href="http://www.fashionstrend.co.uk/gold-jewelry-sets-collection-for-indian-brides-2013/indian-jewellery-bridal-jewellery-collection-2013-1/"><img class="size-medium wp-image-795" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/india_jewelry-512x561.jpg" alt="Gold jewelry shouldn't be viewed as an &quot;investment&quot; in gold, but rather, as &quot;bling&quot;.  Image Source: FashionsTrend.co.uk" width="512" height="561" /></a> Gold jewelry shouldn't be viewed as an "investment" in gold, but rather, as "bling".Image Source: <a href="http://www.fashionstrend.co.uk/gold-jewelry-sets-collection-for-indian-brides-2013/indian-jewellery-bridal-jewellery-collection-2013-1/">FashionsTrend.co.uk</a>

[/caption]

Lets first point out that jewelry is one of the worst possible ways to "invest" in gold. Even <a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qOPhm1H4-f8J:https://www.thegoldbug.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=105&amp;Itemid=115">thegoldbug.com</a>, (the link goes to a cached version of the site on Google's servers, as the "real" site has been defaced by hackers), lists investing in gold in the form of jewelry as one of the top 10 mistakes, saying:
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">"<strong>Remember that Gold Jewelry is not an Investment</strong> — As with nuggets, jewelry is an unreliable source of gold. Not only is the<em> purity of the metal once again a concern,</em> but there is also <em>the added artisan's premium present in all jewelry</em>. The cost applied by the craftsman who made the piece will <em>always inflate the price well past the value of the metal alone</em>. Therefore, while jewelry may have value in its own right, it has <em>no place in the hands of an investor</em> who is looking to own gold as an asset. (<em>Emphasis' </em>are my own)</p>
Essentially, gold jewelry is a means of displaying that one has wealth, but to use the jewelry a method to store that wealth itself is a terrible idea. Whether the national currency of India is Rupees or bitcoin, Indians who want to display that they hold significant wealth will contiune to buy gold jewelry. Gold is "blng", and bitcoin, existing only in the form of electrons, has no "bling" factor. Arguing otherwise is essentially trying to argue that as a result of an ec51%onomy moving to bitcoin, that demand for <a href="http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/index">Mercedes</a>' or <a href="http://www.rolex.com">Rolex</a> watches will dry up. Right there, 48% of the gold demand which Pantera presumes that bitcoin could replace evaporates.

<strong>Bitcoins' "advantages" over gold. Are they really "advantages"?</strong>

Further along, when Pantera tries to explain the traits that bitcoin has but gold lacks, explaining that for gold miners to deliever the same service as bitcoin miners, they would have to provide armed guards, concealed tranaction values and a constantly updated ledger of transactions. None of these arguments make sense:
<ul>
   <li>armed guards (why? miners don't guarantee the security of the wallet file on your computer),</li>
   <li>concealed transaction values (inexplicable; if I hand a gold coin to you, is that transaction not concealed from the rest of the world?), and</li>
   <li>a constantly updated ledger (for what? an up to date ledger is essential for a digital currency, yes, but for a physical currency, a ledger is of no added value - why do i need a transaction recorded in a ledger when I have my gold in hand?)</li>
</ul>
Furthermore, in explaining bitcoins' advantages over gold, they state that bitcoin is superior to gold due to the difficulty of theft. Dig through enought bitcoin-related discussions on <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/">Reddit's bitcoin-related threads</a> and <a href="https://bitcointalk.org">bitcointalk's forums</a> and you'll see that whether its because of a keylogger on one's computer, an exchange not using <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-factor_authentication">2-Factor Authentication</a>, a user choosing an insecure method of generating a wallet (say, <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ptuf3/brain_wallet_disaster/">brainwallet</a>, for example), or an <a href="https://www.mtgox.com/">exchange</a> declaring that all of their customers holdings are gone due to a "bug" in the bitcoin protocol, bitcoins can be stolen just as any other asset can be.

<strong>Would nations really rely on the blockchain to store their wealth?</strong>

They also describe the network of bitcoin miners as being a robust form of security. While presently true that achieving enough computing power to conduct a 51% attack is beyond most people means, if a nation adopted bitcoin as their currency, I could easily envision a scenario where a rival, or a group of rivals, could be motivated to discretely and covertly develop and deploy their own network of ASIC miners in order to conduct <a href="http://econwarfare.org">economic warfare</a> against that  state. And unlike the "limited" means that most of us have that places a 51% attack out of reach, once nation-states are in the game, there is no telling how many of their resources they would devote to such an effort. Just because such an event has not yet happened <a href="http://www.johnperkins.org">does not mean that it won't</a>, ESPECIALLY if bitcoin became the official currency of a country.

[caption id="attachment_796" align="aligncenter" width="336"]<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452287081/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=0452287081&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=dioxidizedcom-20&amp;linkId=2VLRWLSNPRSMT4N3"><img class="size-full wp-image-796" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/confessionshitman.jpg" alt="Economic Warfare a real occurrence, and a nation relying on bitcoin as its national currency would be especially vulnerable." width="336" height="506" /></a> Economic Warfare a real occurrence, and a nation relying on bitcoin as its national currency would be especially vulnerable.[/caption]

<strong>Supply Limits</strong>

Another "advantage" they cite is bitcoin's strictly limited supply, compared to the continued mining of gold. I struggle to see the relevance - 165,000 metric tons of gold <a href="http://www.numbersleuth.org/worlds-gold/">has already been mined</a>, and the <a href="http://www.usgs.gov">US Geological Survey</a> that Pantera cites says that there are an esimated 52,000 metric tons of gold still remaining underground. Meanwhile, bitcoin mining continues along, creating 3600 new coins per day, and though reward halvings will continue to occur roughly every four years, the full supply of bitcoin won't have been mined until the year 2140.

Aside from that, recall earlier in their report when Pantera pointed out how the flexibility of fiat currencies was "superior" to the inflexibility imposed by using an asset of limited supply as a means of conducting trade. Now, it is a supposed advantage? They need to take one side of the argument or the other, not both.

<strong>So where does that leave us?</strong>

For starters, bitcoin is incapable of replacing gold in dentistry and industrial applications, two sources that contibute $66,114 to the $4.2 million final estimated value that bitcoin could achieve. Neither would bitcoin replace jewelry, as jewelry is means of displaying value, not storing it. There goes another $286,496 of their estimate. While it could and likely will be used as a means of investment, indeed, it already is, it's foolish to think that the bitcoin would replace 100% of the gold presently held either in investment portfolios or in safes. Yes, it is another instrument that people can use to invest their wealth in, but it won't erase nearly 10,000 years of human history and cause demand for holding gold as an investment to zero. Another $88,153 off of the value

<strong>And the biggest item on their list, world M2 (money supply)</strong>

First off, to bear down on the same point yet again, circle back to Pantera's original <a href="#Atlantic">quote from the Atlantic</a> regarding the effects of a nation sticking with the gold standard versus fiat currencies, as a bitcoin denominated economy would operate in a manner far closer to one operating under the gold standard than one with fiat currency.

Secondly, from what I just pointed out above, I have difficulty imaging any nation wanting to switch to bitcoin as their nominal currency, knowing that another nation could concievably overtake and subvert the entire network. The two biggest threats in that scenario would be the United States and China, both of whom have a deep supply of people with the necessary skillsets to design the needed hardware and the domestic production capacity to create the needed hardware without drawing any outside attention until it is too late.

<strong>And where does that leave bitcoin?</strong>

Despite my arguments above, I believe that bitcoin is still an asset that could possess significant value; as a peer-to-peer currency, it allows individuals to send money to one another quicker than sending checks through the mail and more inexpensively that wire transfers or worse, money transfer services.

It can certainly be adopted by companies as a means of receiving payments to cut down on credit card processing fees. The challenge there is convincing the customer to opt to pay using bitcoin and abandon the incentives offered by credit card companies to "charge" their purchases. Bitcoin doesn't have reward points, for instance, and more critically, consumers lose the ability to charge back a purchase if necessary (for instance, if a company refuses to adhere to its refund policy), or, to take an example from the bitcoin community - if <a style="text-decoration: line-through;" href="http://www.butterflylabs.com">Butterfl</a>... I mean, a company,  takes orders for a product and doesn't ship those orders until a year had passed.

The lack of ability to reverse a bitcoin transaction is frequently cited as reason why biusinesses should adopt bitcoin, but there are also plenty of legitimate reasons why consumers prefer to have that ability besides try to defraud merchants.

One place where the lack of chargebacks shouldn't be a concern to consumers are for products/services that can't really be returned anyways. Dining. Haircuts. Digital purchases such as software or musc (an area where <a href="https://www.paypal.com">Paypal's</a> subsidiary <a href="https://www.braintreepayments.com/blog/goodbye-passwords-one-touch-hello-bitcoin">Braintree</a> has already entered the market).

But for goods, especially from vendors whose ability or willingness to deliver those goods in a <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/1w2hdk/horrors_of_butterfly_labs/">timely manner might be in question</a>, most consumers will likely want a payment method that allows them to dispute the charge and recoup their money if the vendor doesn't honor their obligations.

<strong>That brings us to the next place where bitcoin can really shine - the remittance marketplace. </strong>

I fully expect bitcoin to either overtake or be adopted by <a href="http://www.dioxidized.com/2014/09/18/remittance-a-place-where-bitcoin-can-shine-today/">the remittance market</a>. For it to trully dominate, though, my personal thought is that bitcoins involvement in remittanes will need to be made transparent to the end-users; a remitter would simply walk into a store and hand their money to the cashier and provide instuctions as to where to send the funds. The transfer company would then buy bitcoins and send those coins to the branch were the receiver will be picking up their funds, who would then immediately sell those coins and deliver the proceeds in the recipients currency of choice.

[caption id="attachment_793" align="alignleft" width="500"]<img class="wp-image-793 size-full" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/fannie-mae_stock.png" alt="fannie-mae_stock" width="500" height="434" /> The dangers of putting all your eggs in one basket, whether that basket is bitcoins, litecoins, or the shares of any single company is irrelevant.[/caption]

Lastly, bitcoin can absolutely serve as a means to store wealth, but in my view, only it's only appropriate to use it as "store of value" as part of a diviersified investment portfolio. Asset prices flucuate - storing all of ones wealth in bitcoin should be just as frowned upon as storing all of ones wealth in shares of a single company, say, Fannie Mae, for example.

To conclude, while I think that bitcoin certainly has value in the future, I think that the maximum value of a single bitcoin well below the $4,291,060 estimate published by Pantera, and disagree with many of the reasons that Pantera cites that bitcoin could or should replace gold rather than being viewed as an asset to own in addition to gold (and real estate, and equities, and bonds, etc).
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October 08, 2014, 09:54:06 PM
 #2

Personally i think they are right Smiley
Bitcoin will be worth over 1 milion $
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October 08, 2014, 10:02:58 PM
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Personally i think they are right Smiley
Bitcoin will be worth over 1 milion $


That's not realistic, but I would very much welcome it because then I don't have to work anymore.

I think the max price it will ever reach, if ever, is $10,000 and that's a fair estimate.
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October 08, 2014, 10:06:02 PM
 #4

One of the best ways to assure destruction of free trade in the world, is to make Bitcoin the leading form of money in the world.

If the electrical grid and the Internet crashed today, fiat would survive. Fiat would survive because people have cash in hand. If the grid and Internet never returned, people could (not easily) go back to record keeping by hand. Bitcoin, however, would be completely gone.

If the fiats of the world were ever overcome by Bitcoin to such an extent that Bitcoin threatened the economy of the fiat system, the Power Elite of the world would see to it that both the power grid and the Internet collapsed. Why? Because they are survivalists. And more than any guy with his family, and his bunkers, and his cached food supply, etc., the global Power Elite are prepared for a potential world economy flop in every way that they can think of. And that includes a whole bunch of ways that might never occur to little people, simply because little people are not of the mindset of controlling nations like the Power Elite are.

Not only are they prepared, but they are the ones who are stockpiling the militaries of the world with all the supplies that they need to survive and take control. Consider the United States. Consider all the armament that the Government has been giving away to law enforcement, and even to lowly coroners. The Power Elite are more prepared than anyone else, and if their fiats flopped, and Bitcoin takes over, they would crash the world, simply to remain in control.

Let Bitcoin grow. But don't let it become BIG... at least not in its current state. If Bitcoin could be held in hand, and could be traded among the people without electronics - computer and Internet - yet retained all the encryption that it currently has, along with the ability to easily be encrypted thousands of times stronger than it currently is, then and only then might it be a candidate for world currency.

In the event that technology crashed in a big way, we would be back to gold and silver, and copper. Bitcoin would be completely gone. Just because we are living in a technologically advancing time, don't think that a technology crash couldn't happen, and that we are safe as we are.

Smiley

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October 08, 2014, 10:11:09 PM
 #5

Personally i think they are right Smiley
Bitcoin will be worth over 1 milion $


That's not realistic, but I would very much welcome it because then I don't have to work anymore.

I think the max price it will ever reach, if ever, is $10,000 and that's a fair estimate.

This is why I think it is realistic...

A statistical explanation why 1BTC may equal 1M USD in future...

Value of 1BTC (around figure)

2009 => 10-2 USD
2010 => 10-1 USD
2011 => 100 USD
2012 => 101 USD
2013 => 102 USD
2014 => 103 USD
2015 => 104 USD
2016 => 105 USD
2017 => 106 USD

--- Early Adoption Ends Here and The Price Stabilizes ---

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October 08, 2014, 10:11:40 PM
 #6

your text is really difficult to read because of the wrong code

I think it can reach 10,000$ in some years
maybe,it could reach 40,000$,but not more,it is not real a higher estimation
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October 08, 2014, 10:25:41 PM
 #7

Personally i think they are right Smiley
Bitcoin will be worth over 1 milion $


That's not realistic, but I would very much welcome it because then I don't have to work anymore.

I think the max price it will ever reach, if ever, is $10,000 and that's a fair estimate.

This is why I think it is realistic...

A statistical explanation why 1BTC may equal 1M USD in future...

Value of 1BTC (around figure)

2009 => 10-2 USD
2010 => 10-1 USD
2011 => 100 USD
2012 => 101 USD
2013 => 102 USD
2014 => 103 USD
2015 => 104 USD
2016 => 105 USD
2017 => 106 USD

--- Early Adoption Ends Here and The Price Stabilizes ---

It's one thing to assume exponential growth when an asset is worth .10 and $1. Much harder, and I'd say, less realistic to think that earlier growth rates would still apply at a value of $1,000 or $10,000...
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October 08, 2014, 11:00:26 PM
 #8

Here's a chunk of good code that will almost work. Simply copy it, paste it into a plain old, blank text file. Give the file a name that ends in ".html" and open with your browser.

Quote
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<head>
   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
   <meta name="GENERATOR" content="Mozilla/4.8 [en] (WinNT; U) [Netscape]">
   <title>Pantera Capital</title>
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#CCFFFF" link="#0000EE" vlink="#551A8B" alink="#FF0000">
<div align="center"><table  width="50%" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10">
   <tr>
      <td >
<img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-629" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/bitcoin-75px_featured.png" alt="bitcoin-75px_featured" width="75" height="75" />The other day, a firm by the name of <a href="https://panteracapital.com/">Pantera Capital</a> released their rather bullish assessment of bitcoin's potential titled <a href="https://cdn.panteracapital.com/wp-content/uploads/Bitcoin-vs-Gold.pdf">"Gold Versus Bitcoin As A Store Of Value"</a>, which estimated that the future value of a single bitcoin could exceed $4 million ($4,291,060 if you want to be precise), which was released to an <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2imk7q/pantera_capital_what_could_bitcoin_be_worth/">extremely receptive audience on Reddit</a>.

I feel it's important to note that while it took me some time to come around to bitcoin (a friend first mentioned it to me in the 2010 or 2011 time-frame, to which I essentially just rolled my eyes and said "that's nice"), I have since seen some of the light and do think/will agree that bitcoin does indeed have a future. With that said, no matter how many mental leaps I make, I can't come close to agreeing with Pantera's assessment of the value of the technology.

<!--more-->

<a id="Atlantic" name="Atlantic"></a>Strangely, on the first page of the report, by quoting an article titled <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the-gold-standard-is-the-worlds-worst-economic-idea-in-2-charts/261552/">"Why the Gold Standard Is the World's Worst Economic Idea"</a>, by <a href="https://twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma">Matthew O'Brien</a> from the <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com">Atlantic</a>, Pantera makes a rather strong argument FOR fiat currencies. That quote can be summarized as follows:
<p style="padding-left: 60px;"><em>Exactly zero economists endorsed [returning to the gold standard] in a recent poll ... It <strong>prevents the central bank from fighting recessions</strong> by outsourcing monetary policy decisions to how much gold we have ... When we peg the dollar to gold we have to raise interest rates when gold is scarce, regardless of the state of the economy. <strong>This policy inflexibility was the major cause of the Great Depression</strong>, as governments were forced to tighten policy at the worst possible moment. <strong>It's no coincidence that the sooner a country abandoned the gold standard, the sooner it began recovering</strong>.”</em></p>
Pantera continues, explaining in their own words that <em>"inflation (and deflation) was much worse under the gold standard than it has been since"</em>, and that a return to such would not lead to any form of price stability.

So far, in their argument for bitcoin, Pantera has explained that the root cause of <a href="http://www.history.com/topics/great-depression">Great Depression</a> was due to the <a href="http://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/1999/march/monetary-policy-and-the-great-crash-of-1929-a-bursting-bubble-or-collapsing-fundamentals/">monetary inflexibility</a> (of course, <a href="http://www.freedomworks.org/content/debunking-myths-great-depression">others disagree with that assessment</a>) that was imposed on countries who operated under the gold standard, that the sooner a nation abandoned the gold standard in favor of fiat currency, the sooner they recovered from the Depression, and that both inflation and depression have been far more pronounced when monetary policy is dictated by the supply of a scarce resource. While factual, I'd expect a pro-bitcoin article to gloss over such details, not emphasize them.

<div align="center"><table id="attachment_794" align="aligncenter" width="500"><tr><td><a href="https://bitcointalk.org/annoyance.php"><img class="size-full wp-image-794" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/bitcoins.jpg" alt="Physical bitcoins by Casascius, because every article about bitcoin needs a picture of them." width="500" height="285" /></a> <a href="https://bitcointalk.org/annoyance.php">Physical bitcoins by Casascius</a>, because every article about bitcoin needs a picture of them.</td></tr></table></div>

<strong>But all that is just an aside, let me continue...</strong>

Citing the <a href="http://www.gold.org">World Gold Council</a>, Pantera shows that from 2010 through 2013, world-wide demand for gold amounted to 17,500 metric tons, of which 8,400 tons were used for jewelry, 5,900 tons were purchased for investment purposes, 1,600 tons in industry, 170 tons for dentistry and 1,500 tons were purchased by central banks (if you're using a calculator, I'll admit that the numbers won't total correctly, as I did some rounding).

<strong>Jewelry is not an investment in gold...</strong>

Pantera assumes gold jewelry to be an investment and argues that by moving their wealth from gold jewelry to bitcoin, and Indian family's (without access to banks, but presumably with access to the internet) wealth would be much safer.

<div align="center"><table id="attachment_795" align="aligncenter" width="512"><tr><td><a href="http://www.fashionstrend.co.uk/gold-jewelry-sets-collection-for-indian-brides-2013/indian-jewellery-bridal-jewellery-collection-2013-1/"><img class="size-medium wp-image-795" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/india_jewelry-512x561.jpg" alt="Gold jewelry shouldn't be viewed as an &quot;investment&quot; in gold, but rather, as &quot;bling&quot;.  Image Source: FashionsTrend.co.uk" width="512" height="561" /></a> Gold jewelry shouldn't be viewed as an "investment" in gold, but rather, as "bling".Image Source: <a href="http://www.fashionstrend.co.uk/gold-jewelry-sets-collection-for-indian-brides-2013/indian-jewellery-bridal-jewellery-collection-2013-1/">FashionsTrend.co.uk</a>
</td></tr></table></div>

<BR>Lets first point out that jewelry is one of the worst possible ways to "invest" in gold. Even <a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qOPhm1H4-f8J:https://www.thegoldbug.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=105&amp;Itemid=115">thegoldbug.com</a>, (the link goes to a cached version of the site on Google's servers, as the "real" site has been defaced by hackers), lists investing in gold in the form of jewelry as one of the top 10 mistakes, saying:
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">"<strong>Remember that Gold Jewelry is not an Investment</strong> — As with nuggets, jewelry is an unreliable source of gold. Not only is the<em> purity of the metal once again a concern,</em> but there is also <em>the added artisan's premium present in all jewelry</em>. The cost applied by the craftsman who made the piece will <em>always inflate the price well past the value of the metal alone</em>. Therefore, while jewelry may have value in its own right, it has <em>no place in the hands of an investor</em> who is looking to own gold as an asset. (<em>Emphasis' </em>are my own)</p>
Essentially, gold jewelry is a means of displaying that one has wealth, but to use the jewelry a method to store that wealth itself is a terrible idea. Whether the national currency of India is Rupees or bitcoin, Indians who want to display that they hold significant wealth will contiune to buy gold jewelry. Gold is "blng", and bitcoin, existing only in the form of electrons, has no "bling" factor. Arguing otherwise is essentially trying to argue that as a result of an ec51%onomy moving to bitcoin, that demand for <a href="http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/index">Mercedes</a>' or <a href="http://www.rolex.com">Rolex</a> watches will dry up. Right there, 48% of the gold demand which Pantera presumes that bitcoin could replace evaporates.

<strong>Bitcoins' "advantages" over gold. Are they really "advantages"?</strong>

Further along, when Pantera tries to explain the traits that bitcoin has but gold lacks, explaining that for gold miners to deliever the same service as bitcoin miners, they would have to provide armed guards, concealed tranaction values and a constantly updated ledger of transactions. None of these arguments make sense:
<ul>
   <li>armed guards (why? miners don't guarantee the security of the wallet file on your computer),</li>
   <li>concealed transaction values (inexplicable; if I hand a gold coin to you, is that transaction not concealed from the rest of the world?), and</li>
   <li>a constantly updated ledger (for what? an up to date ledger is essential for a digital currency, yes, but for a physical currency, a ledger is of no added value - why do i need a transaction recorded in a ledger when I have my gold in hand?)</li>
</ul>
Furthermore, in explaining bitcoins' advantages over gold, they state that bitcoin is superior to gold due to the difficulty of theft. Dig through enought bitcoin-related discussions on <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/">Reddit's bitcoin-related threads</a> and <a href="https://bitcointalk.org">bitcointalk's forums</a> and you'll see that whether its because of a keylogger on one's computer, an exchange not using <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-factor_authentication">2-Factor Authentication</a>, a user choosing an insecure method of generating a wallet (say, <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ptuf3/brain_wallet_disaster/">brainwallet</a>, for example), or an <a href="https://www.mtgox.com/">exchange</a> declaring that all of their customers holdings are gone due to a "bug" in the bitcoin protocol, bitcoins can be stolen just as any other asset can be.

<strong>Would nations really rely on the blockchain to store their wealth?</strong>

They also describe the network of bitcoin miners as being a robust form of security. While presently true that achieving enough computing power to conduct a 51% attack is beyond most people means, if a nation adopted bitcoin as their currency, I could easily envision a scenario where a rival, or a group of rivals, could be motivated to discretely and covertly develop and deploy their own network of ASIC miners in order to conduct <a href="http://econwarfare.org">economic warfare</a> against that  state. And unlike the "limited" means that most of us have that places a 51% attack out of reach, once nation-states are in the game, there is no telling how many of their resources they would devote to such an effort. Just because such an event has not yet happened <a href="http://www.johnperkins.org">does not mean that it won't</a>, ESPECIALLY if bitcoin became the official currency of a country.

<div align="center"><table id="attachment_796" align="aligncenter" width="336"><tr><td><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452287081/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=0452287081&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=dioxidizedcom-20&amp;linkId=2VLRWLSNPRSMT4N3"><img class="size-full wp-image-796" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/confessionshitman.jpg" alt="Economic Warfare a real occurrence, and a nation relying on bitcoin as its national currency would be especially vulnerable." width="336" height="506" /></a> Economic Warfare a real occurrence, and a nation relying on bitcoin as its national currency would be especially vulnerable.</td></tr></table></div>

<br>
<strong>Supply Limits</strong>

Another "advantage" they cite is bitcoin's strictly limited supply, compared to the continued mining of gold. I struggle to see the relevance - 165,000 metric tons of gold <a href="http://www.numbersleuth.org/worlds-gold/">has already been mined</a>, and the <a href="http://www.usgs.gov">US Geological Survey</a> that Pantera cites says that there are an esimated 52,000 metric tons of gold still remaining underground. Meanwhile, bitcoin mining continues along, creating 3600 new coins per day, and though reward halvings will continue to occur roughly every four years, the full supply of bitcoin won't have been mined until the year 2140.

Aside from that, recall earlier in their report when Pantera pointed out how the flexibility of fiat currencies was "superior" to the inflexibility imposed by using an asset of limited supply as a means of conducting trade. Now, it is a supposed advantage? They need to take one side of the argument or the other, not both.

<strong>So where does that leave us?</strong>

For starters, bitcoin is incapable of replacing gold in dentistry and industrial applications, two sources that contibute $66,114 to the $4.2 million final estimated value that bitcoin could achieve. Neither would bitcoin replace jewelry, as jewelry is means of displaying value, not storing it. There goes another $286,496 of their estimate. While it could and likely will be used as a means of investment, indeed, it already is, it's foolish to think that the bitcoin would replace 100% of the gold presently held either in investment portfolios or in safes. Yes, it is another instrument that people can use to invest their wealth in, but it won't erase nearly 10,000 years of human history and cause demand for holding gold as an investment to zero. Another $88,153 off of the value

<strong>And the biggest item on their list, world M2 (money supply)</strong>

First off, to bear down on the same point yet again, circle back to Pantera's original <a href="#Atlantic">quote from the Atlantic</a> regarding the effects of a nation sticking with the gold standard versus fiat currencies, as a bitcoin denominated economy would operate in a manner far closer to one operating under the gold standard than one with fiat currency.

Secondly, from what I just pointed out above, I have difficulty imaging any nation wanting to switch to bitcoin as their nominal currency, knowing that another nation could concievably overtake and subvert the entire network. The two biggest threats in that scenario would be the United States and China, both of whom have a deep supply of people with the necessary skillsets to design the needed hardware and the domestic production capacity to create the needed hardware without drawing any outside attention until it is too late.

<strong>And where does that leave bitcoin?</strong>

Despite my arguments above, I believe that bitcoin is still an asset that could possess significant value; as a peer-to-peer currency, it allows individuals to send money to one another quicker than sending checks through the mail and more inexpensively that wire transfers or worse, money transfer services.

It can certainly be adopted by companies as a means of receiving payments to cut down on credit card processing fees. The challenge there is convincing the customer to opt to pay using bitcoin and abandon the incentives offered by credit card companies to "charge" their purchases. Bitcoin doesn't have reward points, for instance, and more critically, consumers lose the ability to charge back a purchase if necessary (for instance, if a company refuses to adhere to its refund policy), or, to take an example from the bitcoin community - if <a style="text-decoration: line-through;" href="http://www.butterflylabs.com">Butterfl</a>... I mean, a company,  takes orders for a product and doesn't ship those orders until a year had passed.

The lack of ability to reverse a bitcoin transaction is frequently cited as reason why biusinesses should adopt bitcoin, but there are also plenty of legitimate reasons why consumers prefer to have that ability besides try to defraud merchants.

One place where the lack of chargebacks shouldn't be a concern to consumers are for products/services that can't really be returned anyways. Dining. Haircuts. Digital purchases such as software or musc (an area where <a href="https://www.paypal.com">Paypal's</a> subsidiary <a href="https://www.braintreepayments.com/blog/goodbye-passwords-one-touch-hello-bitcoin">Braintree</a> has already entered the market).

But for goods, especially from vendors whose ability or willingness to deliver those goods in a <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/1w2hdk/horrors_of_butterfly_labs/">timely manner might be in question</a>, most consumers will likely want a payment method that allows them to dispute the charge and recoup their money if the vendor doesn't honor their obligations.

<strong>That brings us to the next place where bitcoin can really shine - the remittance marketplace. </strong>

I fully expect bitcoin to either overtake or be adopted by <a href="http://www.dioxidized.com/2014/09/18/remittance-a-place-where-bitcoin-can-shine-today/">the remittance market</a>. For it to trully dominate, though, my personal thought is that bitcoins involvement in remittanes will need to be made transparent to the end-users; a remitter would simply walk into a store and hand their money to the cashier and provide instuctions as to where to send the funds. The transfer company would then buy bitcoins and send those coins to the branch were the receiver will be picking up their funds, who would then immediately sell those coins and deliver the proceeds in the recipients currency of choice.

<br><br><div align="center"><table id="attachment_793" align="alignleft" width="500"><tr><td><img class="wp-image-793 size-full" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/fannie-mae_stock.png" alt="fannie-mae_stock" width="500" height="434" /> The dangers of putting all your eggs in one basket, whether that basket is bitcoins, litecoins, or the shares of any single company is irrelevant.</td></tr></table></div>

<br>Lastly, bitcoin can absolutely serve as a means to store wealth, but in my view, only it's only appropriate to use it as "store of value" as part of a diviersified investment portfolio. Asset prices flucuate - storing all of ones wealth in bitcoin should be just as frowned upon as storing all of ones wealth in shares of a single company, say, Fannie Mae, for example.

To conclude, while I think that bitcoin certainly has value in the future, I think that the maximum value of a single bitcoin well below the $4,291,060 estimate published by Pantera, and disagree with many of the reasons that Pantera cites that bitcoin could or should replace gold rather than being viewed as an asset to own in addition to gold (and real estate, and equities, and bonds, etc).

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</table></div>
<p>

<br>
<p>

<br>
<p>

<br>
<p>

<br>


</body>
</html>

Smiley

BUDESONIDE essentially cures Covid symptoms in one day to one week >>> https://budesonideworks.com/.
Hydroxychloroquine is being used against Covid with great success >>> https://altcensored.com/watch?v=otRN0X6F81c.
Masks are stupid. Watch the first 5 minutes >>> https://www.bitchute.com/video/rlWESmrijl8Q/.
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October 08, 2014, 11:08:35 PM
 #9

@BADecker: It's why i posted a link to the original story, rather than attempting to reformat it using simple machines forums' syntax. If i do so in the future, rather than copy/paste to give people a way to access it without leaving this site, would it be better to simply create an .html as you did and post that? I mean, is that the preferable way of doing things?
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October 08, 2014, 11:19:06 PM
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@BADecker: It's why i posted a link to the original story, rather than attempting to reformat it using simple machines forums' syntax. If i do so in the future, rather than copy/paste to give people a way to access it without leaving this site, would it be better to simply create an .html as you did and post that? I mean, is that the preferable way of doing things?

Hey man. You can do what you want. Someone made a little complaint, above. I didn't even look to see who it was. I had already done the coding because I like to code a little, so, being the simpleton that I am, I posted it.

To me, a link is probably better. But posted code is better if the linked site goes away.

Smiley

BUDESONIDE essentially cures Covid symptoms in one day to one week >>> https://budesonideworks.com/.
Hydroxychloroquine is being used against Covid with great success >>> https://altcensored.com/watch?v=otRN0X6F81c.
Masks are stupid. Watch the first 5 minutes >>> https://www.bitchute.com/video/rlWESmrijl8Q/.
Don't be afraid to donate Bitcoin. Thank you. >>> 1JDJotyxZLFF8akGCxHeqMkD4YrrTmEAwz
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October 08, 2014, 11:42:40 PM
 #11

Personally i think they are right Smiley
Bitcoin will be worth over 1 milion $


That's not realistic, but I would very much welcome it because then I don't have to work anymore.

I think the max price it will ever reach, if ever, is $10,000 and that's a fair estimate.

This is why I think it is realistic...

A statistical explanation why 1BTC may equal 1M USD in future...

Value of 1BTC (around figure)

2009 => 10-2 USD
2010 => 10-1 USD
2011 => 100 USD
2012 => 101 USD
2013 => 102 USD
2014 => 103 USD
2015 => 104 USD
2016 => 105 USD
2017 => 106 USD

--- Early Adoption Ends Here and The Price Stabilizes ---
It is not realistic to think that the price of an asset will increase in value by 10x every year for 8 years. I cannot actually think of any asset that has appreciated as much in as short of a time period.

There are other, much more reputable sources of research that peg the max value of bitcoin to be at much more modest levels (although much higher then it is now)
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October 09, 2014, 12:01:13 AM
 #12

tl;dr

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October 09, 2014, 01:09:11 AM
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Personally i think they are right Smiley
Bitcoin will be worth over 1 milion $


In what year do you think is that?
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October 09, 2014, 01:20:48 AM
 #14

One of the best ways to assure destruction of free trade in the world, is to make Bitcoin the leading form of money in the world.

If the electrical grid and the Internet crashed today, fiat would survive. Fiat would survive because people have cash in hand. If the grid and Internet never returned, people could (not easily) go back to record keeping by hand. Bitcoin, however, would be completely gone.

If the fiats of the world were ever overcome by Bitcoin to such an extent that Bitcoin threatened the economy of the fiat system, the Power Elite of the world would see to it that both the power grid and the Internet collapsed. Why? Because they are survivalists. And more than any guy with his family, and his bunkers, and his cached food supply, etc., the global Power Elite are prepared for a potential world economy flop in every way that they can think of. And that includes a whole bunch of ways that might never occur to little people, simply because little people are not of the mindset of controlling nations like the Power Elite are.

Not only are they prepared, but they are the ones who are stockpiling the militaries of the world with all the supplies that they need to survive and take control. Consider the United States. Consider all the armament that the Government has been giving away to law enforcement, and even to lowly coroners. The Power Elite are more prepared than anyone else, and if their fiats flopped, and Bitcoin takes over, they would crash the world, simply to remain in control.

Let Bitcoin grow. But don't let it become BIG... at least not in its current state. If Bitcoin could be held in hand, and could be traded among the people without electronics - computer and Internet - yet retained all the encryption that it currently has, along with the ability to easily be encrypted thousands of times stronger than it currently is, then and only then might it be a candidate for world currency.

In the event that technology crashed in a big way, we would be back to gold and silver, and copper. Bitcoin would be completely gone. Just because we are living in a technologically advancing time, don't think that a technology crash couldn't happen, and that we are safe as we are.

Smiley


This is a very interesting post and I concur with most of it, thanks very much.

As for the article mentioned by the OP which estimates that each bitcoin will reach the value of USD$4.2million, I say "Dream on!" It's never going to happen.

 Cheesy





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October 10, 2014, 03:28:51 AM
 #15

If the electrical grid and the Internet crashed today, fiat would survive. Fiat would survive because people have cash in hand.

The vast majority of fiat is digital, with no physical representation.

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.

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October 10, 2014, 04:21:04 AM
 #16

Here's a chunk of good code that will almost work. Simply copy it, paste it into a plain old, blank text file. Give the file a name that ends in ".html" and open with your browser.

Quote
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<head>
   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
   <meta name="GENERATOR" content="Mozilla/4.8 [en] (WinNT; U) [Netscape]">
   <title>Pantera Capital</title>
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#CCFFFF" link="#0000EE" vlink="#551A8B" alink="#FF0000">
<div align="center"><table  width="50%" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10">
   <tr>
      <td >
<img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-629" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/bitcoin-75px_featured.png" alt="bitcoin-75px_featured" width="75" height="75" />The other day, a firm by the name of <a href="https://panteracapital.com/">Pantera Capital</a> released their rather bullish assessment of bitcoin's potential titled <a href="https://cdn.panteracapital.com/wp-content/uploads/Bitcoin-vs-Gold.pdf">"Gold Versus Bitcoin As A Store Of Value"</a>, which estimated that the future value of a single bitcoin could exceed $4 million ($4,291,060 if you want to be precise), which was released to an <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2imk7q/pantera_capital_what_could_bitcoin_be_worth/">extremely receptive audience on Reddit</a>.

I feel it's important to note that while it took me some time to come around to bitcoin (a friend first mentioned it to me in the 2010 or 2011 time-frame, to which I essentially just rolled my eyes and said "that's nice"), I have since seen some of the light and do think/will agree that bitcoin does indeed have a future. With that said, no matter how many mental leaps I make, I can't come close to agreeing with Pantera's assessment of the value of the technology.

<!--more-->

<a id="Atlantic" name="Atlantic"></a>Strangely, on the first page of the report, by quoting an article titled <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the-gold-standard-is-the-worlds-worst-economic-idea-in-2-charts/261552/">"Why the Gold Standard Is the World's Worst Economic Idea"</a>, by <a href="https://twitter.com/ObsoleteDogma">Matthew O'Brien</a> from the <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com">Atlantic</a>, Pantera makes a rather strong argument FOR fiat currencies. That quote can be summarized as follows:
<p style="padding-left: 60px;"><em>Exactly zero economists endorsed [returning to the gold standard] in a recent poll ... It <strong>prevents the central bank from fighting recessions</strong> by outsourcing monetary policy decisions to how much gold we have ... When we peg the dollar to gold we have to raise interest rates when gold is scarce, regardless of the state of the economy. <strong>This policy inflexibility was the major cause of the Great Depression</strong>, as governments were forced to tighten policy at the worst possible moment. <strong>It's no coincidence that the sooner a country abandoned the gold standard, the sooner it began recovering</strong>.”</em></p>
Pantera continues, explaining in their own words that <em>"inflation (and deflation) was much worse under the gold standard than it has been since"</em>, and that a return to such would not lead to any form of price stability.

So far, in their argument for bitcoin, Pantera has explained that the root cause of <a href="http://www.history.com/topics/great-depression">Great Depression</a> was due to the <a href="http://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/1999/march/monetary-policy-and-the-great-crash-of-1929-a-bursting-bubble-or-collapsing-fundamentals/">monetary inflexibility</a> (of course, <a href="http://www.freedomworks.org/content/debunking-myths-great-depression">others disagree with that assessment</a>) that was imposed on countries who operated under the gold standard, that the sooner a nation abandoned the gold standard in favor of fiat currency, the sooner they recovered from the Depression, and that both inflation and depression have been far more pronounced when monetary policy is dictated by the supply of a scarce resource. While factual, I'd expect a pro-bitcoin article to gloss over such details, not emphasize them.

<div align="center"><table id="attachment_794" align="aligncenter" width="500"><tr><td><a href="https://bitcointalk.org/annoyance.php"><img class="size-full wp-image-794" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/bitcoins.jpg" alt="Physical bitcoins by Casascius, because every article about bitcoin needs a picture of them." width="500" height="285" /></a> <a href="https://bitcointalk.org/annoyance.php">Physical bitcoins by Casascius</a>, because every article about bitcoin needs a picture of them.</td></tr></table></div>

<strong>But all that is just an aside, let me continue...</strong>

Citing the <a href="http://www.gold.org">World Gold Council</a>, Pantera shows that from 2010 through 2013, world-wide demand for gold amounted to 17,500 metric tons, of which 8,400 tons were used for jewelry, 5,900 tons were purchased for investment purposes, 1,600 tons in industry, 170 tons for dentistry and 1,500 tons were purchased by central banks (if you're using a calculator, I'll admit that the numbers won't total correctly, as I did some rounding).

<strong>Jewelry is not an investment in gold...</strong>

Pantera assumes gold jewelry to be an investment and argues that by moving their wealth from gold jewelry to bitcoin, and Indian family's (without access to banks, but presumably with access to the internet) wealth would be much safer.

<div align="center"><table id="attachment_795" align="aligncenter" width="512"><tr><td><a href="http://www.fashionstrend.co.uk/gold-jewelry-sets-collection-for-indian-brides-2013/indian-jewellery-bridal-jewellery-collection-2013-1/"><img class="size-medium wp-image-795" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/india_jewelry-512x561.jpg" alt="Gold jewelry shouldn't be viewed as an &quot;investment&quot; in gold, but rather, as &quot;bling&quot;.  Image Source: FashionsTrend.co.uk" width="512" height="561" /></a> Gold jewelry shouldn't be viewed as an "investment" in gold, but rather, as "bling".Image Source: <a href="http://www.fashionstrend.co.uk/gold-jewelry-sets-collection-for-indian-brides-2013/indian-jewellery-bridal-jewellery-collection-2013-1/">FashionsTrend.co.uk</a>
</td></tr></table></div>

<BR>Lets first point out that jewelry is one of the worst possible ways to "invest" in gold. Even <a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qOPhm1H4-f8J:https://www.thegoldbug.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=105&amp;Itemid=115">thegoldbug.com</a>, (the link goes to a cached version of the site on Google's servers, as the "real" site has been defaced by hackers), lists investing in gold in the form of jewelry as one of the top 10 mistakes, saying:
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">"<strong>Remember that Gold Jewelry is not an Investment</strong> — As with nuggets, jewelry is an unreliable source of gold. Not only is the<em> purity of the metal once again a concern,</em> but there is also <em>the added artisan's premium present in all jewelry</em>. The cost applied by the craftsman who made the piece will <em>always inflate the price well past the value of the metal alone</em>. Therefore, while jewelry may have value in its own right, it has <em>no place in the hands of an investor</em> who is looking to own gold as an asset. (<em>Emphasis' </em>are my own)</p>
Essentially, gold jewelry is a means of displaying that one has wealth, but to use the jewelry a method to store that wealth itself is a terrible idea. Whether the national currency of India is Rupees or bitcoin, Indians who want to display that they hold significant wealth will contiune to buy gold jewelry. Gold is "blng", and bitcoin, existing only in the form of electrons, has no "bling" factor. Arguing otherwise is essentially trying to argue that as a result of an ec51%onomy moving to bitcoin, that demand for <a href="http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/index">Mercedes</a>' or <a href="http://www.rolex.com">Rolex</a> watches will dry up. Right there, 48% of the gold demand which Pantera presumes that bitcoin could replace evaporates.

<strong>Bitcoins' "advantages" over gold. Are they really "advantages"?</strong>

Further along, when Pantera tries to explain the traits that bitcoin has but gold lacks, explaining that for gold miners to deliever the same service as bitcoin miners, they would have to provide armed guards, concealed tranaction values and a constantly updated ledger of transactions. None of these arguments make sense:
<ul>
   <li>armed guards (why? miners don't guarantee the security of the wallet file on your computer),</li>
   <li>concealed transaction values (inexplicable; if I hand a gold coin to you, is that transaction not concealed from the rest of the world?), and</li>
   <li>a constantly updated ledger (for what? an up to date ledger is essential for a digital currency, yes, but for a physical currency, a ledger is of no added value - why do i need a transaction recorded in a ledger when I have my gold in hand?)</li>
</ul>
Furthermore, in explaining bitcoins' advantages over gold, they state that bitcoin is superior to gold due to the difficulty of theft. Dig through enought bitcoin-related discussions on <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/">Reddit's bitcoin-related threads</a> and <a href="https://bitcointalk.org">bitcointalk's forums</a> and you'll see that whether its because of a keylogger on one's computer, an exchange not using <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-factor_authentication">2-Factor Authentication</a>, a user choosing an insecure method of generating a wallet (say, <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ptuf3/brain_wallet_disaster/">brainwallet</a>, for example), or an <a href="https://www.mtgox.com/">exchange</a> declaring that all of their customers holdings are gone due to a "bug" in the bitcoin protocol, bitcoins can be stolen just as any other asset can be.

<strong>Would nations really rely on the blockchain to store their wealth?</strong>

They also describe the network of bitcoin miners as being a robust form of security. While presently true that achieving enough computing power to conduct a 51% attack is beyond most people means, if a nation adopted bitcoin as their currency, I could easily envision a scenario where a rival, or a group of rivals, could be motivated to discretely and covertly develop and deploy their own network of ASIC miners in order to conduct <a href="http://econwarfare.org">economic warfare</a> against that  state. And unlike the "limited" means that most of us have that places a 51% attack out of reach, once nation-states are in the game, there is no telling how many of their resources they would devote to such an effort. Just because such an event has not yet happened <a href="http://www.johnperkins.org">does not mean that it won't</a>, ESPECIALLY if bitcoin became the official currency of a country.

<div align="center"><table id="attachment_796" align="aligncenter" width="336"><tr><td><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0452287081/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957&amp;creativeASIN=0452287081&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=dioxidizedcom-20&amp;linkId=2VLRWLSNPRSMT4N3"><img class="size-full wp-image-796" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/confessionshitman.jpg" alt="Economic Warfare a real occurrence, and a nation relying on bitcoin as its national currency would be especially vulnerable." width="336" height="506" /></a> Economic Warfare a real occurrence, and a nation relying on bitcoin as its national currency would be especially vulnerable.</td></tr></table></div>

<br>
<strong>Supply Limits</strong>

Another "advantage" they cite is bitcoin's strictly limited supply, compared to the continued mining of gold. I struggle to see the relevance - 165,000 metric tons of gold <a href="http://www.numbersleuth.org/worlds-gold/">has already been mined</a>, and the <a href="http://www.usgs.gov">US Geological Survey</a> that Pantera cites says that there are an esimated 52,000 metric tons of gold still remaining underground. Meanwhile, bitcoin mining continues along, creating 3600 new coins per day, and though reward halvings will continue to occur roughly every four years, the full supply of bitcoin won't have been mined until the year 2140.

Aside from that, recall earlier in their report when Pantera pointed out how the flexibility of fiat currencies was "superior" to the inflexibility imposed by using an asset of limited supply as a means of conducting trade. Now, it is a supposed advantage? They need to take one side of the argument or the other, not both.

<strong>So where does that leave us?</strong>

For starters, bitcoin is incapable of replacing gold in dentistry and industrial applications, two sources that contibute $66,114 to the $4.2 million final estimated value that bitcoin could achieve. Neither would bitcoin replace jewelry, as jewelry is means of displaying value, not storing it. There goes another $286,496 of their estimate. While it could and likely will be used as a means of investment, indeed, it already is, it's foolish to think that the bitcoin would replace 100% of the gold presently held either in investment portfolios or in safes. Yes, it is another instrument that people can use to invest their wealth in, but it won't erase nearly 10,000 years of human history and cause demand for holding gold as an investment to zero. Another $88,153 off of the value

<strong>And the biggest item on their list, world M2 (money supply)</strong>

First off, to bear down on the same point yet again, circle back to Pantera's original <a href="#Atlantic">quote from the Atlantic</a> regarding the effects of a nation sticking with the gold standard versus fiat currencies, as a bitcoin denominated economy would operate in a manner far closer to one operating under the gold standard than one with fiat currency.

Secondly, from what I just pointed out above, I have difficulty imaging any nation wanting to switch to bitcoin as their nominal currency, knowing that another nation could concievably overtake and subvert the entire network. The two biggest threats in that scenario would be the United States and China, both of whom have a deep supply of people with the necessary skillsets to design the needed hardware and the domestic production capacity to create the needed hardware without drawing any outside attention until it is too late.

<strong>And where does that leave bitcoin?</strong>

Despite my arguments above, I believe that bitcoin is still an asset that could possess significant value; as a peer-to-peer currency, it allows individuals to send money to one another quicker than sending checks through the mail and more inexpensively that wire transfers or worse, money transfer services.

It can certainly be adopted by companies as a means of receiving payments to cut down on credit card processing fees. The challenge there is convincing the customer to opt to pay using bitcoin and abandon the incentives offered by credit card companies to "charge" their purchases. Bitcoin doesn't have reward points, for instance, and more critically, consumers lose the ability to charge back a purchase if necessary (for instance, if a company refuses to adhere to its refund policy), or, to take an example from the bitcoin community - if <a style="text-decoration: line-through;" href="http://www.butterflylabs.com">Butterfl</a>... I mean, a company,  takes orders for a product and doesn't ship those orders until a year had passed.

The lack of ability to reverse a bitcoin transaction is frequently cited as reason why biusinesses should adopt bitcoin, but there are also plenty of legitimate reasons why consumers prefer to have that ability besides try to defraud merchants.

One place where the lack of chargebacks shouldn't be a concern to consumers are for products/services that can't really be returned anyways. Dining. Haircuts. Digital purchases such as software or musc (an area where <a href="https://www.paypal.com">Paypal's</a> subsidiary <a href="https://www.braintreepayments.com/blog/goodbye-passwords-one-touch-hello-bitcoin">Braintree</a> has already entered the market).

But for goods, especially from vendors whose ability or willingness to deliver those goods in a <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/1w2hdk/horrors_of_butterfly_labs/">timely manner might be in question</a>, most consumers will likely want a payment method that allows them to dispute the charge and recoup their money if the vendor doesn't honor their obligations.

<strong>That brings us to the next place where bitcoin can really shine - the remittance marketplace. </strong>

I fully expect bitcoin to either overtake or be adopted by <a href="http://www.dioxidized.com/2014/09/18/remittance-a-place-where-bitcoin-can-shine-today/">the remittance market</a>. For it to trully dominate, though, my personal thought is that bitcoins involvement in remittanes will need to be made transparent to the end-users; a remitter would simply walk into a store and hand their money to the cashier and provide instuctions as to where to send the funds. The transfer company would then buy bitcoins and send those coins to the branch were the receiver will be picking up their funds, who would then immediately sell those coins and deliver the proceeds in the recipients currency of choice.

<br><br><div align="center"><table id="attachment_793" align="alignleft" width="500"><tr><td><img class="wp-image-793 size-full" src="http://www.dioxidized.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/fannie-mae_stock.png" alt="fannie-mae_stock" width="500" height="434" /> The dangers of putting all your eggs in one basket, whether that basket is bitcoins, litecoins, or the shares of any single company is irrelevant.</td></tr></table></div>

<br>Lastly, bitcoin can absolutely serve as a means to store wealth, but in my view, only it's only appropriate to use it as "store of value" as part of a diviersified investment portfolio. Asset prices flucuate - storing all of ones wealth in bitcoin should be just as frowned upon as storing all of ones wealth in shares of a single company, say, Fannie Mae, for example.

To conclude, while I think that bitcoin certainly has value in the future, I think that the maximum value of a single bitcoin well below the $4,291,060 estimate published by Pantera, and disagree with many of the reasons that Pantera cites that bitcoin could or should replace gold rather than being viewed as an asset to own in addition to gold (and real estate, and equities, and bonds, etc).

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Smiley


Or...... maybe just write it normal like 99.9% of other OPs.  Kind of hard to copy and paste on my phone.

MasterCasino
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October 10, 2014, 05:02:17 AM
 #17

If the electrical grid and the Internet crashed today, fiat would survive. Fiat would survive because people have cash in hand.

The vast majority of fiat is digital, with no physical representation.

That is right.. I hate fiat..
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October 10, 2014, 05:13:40 AM
 #18

I think they are smoking weed here. My best case scenario is about 10-15% of the Gold market size - which would equate to about 50k per coin at 21mn

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October 10, 2014, 10:17:43 AM
Last edit: October 10, 2014, 01:40:34 PM by Snail2
 #19

I wish if that estimation would became reality at some point, but for that we need much more acceptance from individuals up to govt level. Unfortunately at this moment I don't see the masses banging the miners doors for moar bitcoins or govts lining up for supporting it Smiley.
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October 10, 2014, 12:31:41 PM
 #20

I think they are smoking weed here. My best case scenario is about 10-15% of the Gold market size - which would equate to about 50k per coin at 21mn

I agree.. Well in contrary, they should smoke pot to come up with this comment.

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