Bitcoin evolution / solving adoption

[TGBEX]

Bitcoin industry is evolving at a frightening pace (e.g. look at wallets generated), so parallels to the tech boom, then bust of the 90s are logical

Disruptive potential of bitcoin is immense as am sure most here would agree, but is the industry in danger of 'getting ahead' of itself?

Internet start-ups (specialising in retail, security, infrastructure etc) with little to no revenue were getting huge amounts of money from Venture Capital funds in the early 90's (similar to exchanges now)- they went on to float on stock markets and raise even larger amounts years later, but most then disappeared with only a handful recovering to become some of the corporate monsters we see today (google, apple, microsoft etc)

Adoption of any new technology determines its success

Internet technology, like bitcoin was 'given away' to the public (ignoring early mining), which helped it overcome public skepticism and corporate competition (together with 'early mover' advantage)

Bitcoin can succeed for these reasons, but whilst all the investment is going into mining technology, exchanges and software, I believe the general public (95-99% of global population?) are being left behind and lost

Bitcoin should be a global currency, open to all (not just a tech savvy minority), otherwise it is meaningless?

Bitcoin needs to be understandable, so how can this be done?

TGBEX, produces physical bitcoins with keys engraved into individually numbered, limited edition coins, that makes bitcoin an ideal gift, investment or collectible

CrypArt produces QR based canvas art (launching over next month), that allows owners to store bitcoins on a canvas design of their choice

Also involved in a few other ventures we would like to progress (e.g. crypjewels and lower value physical coins)

Physical coins and Art make bitcoin a lot easier to explain and with ownership comes increased interest, awareness and by definition adoption

Bitcoin branded T-shirts, Caps etc are important to spread awareness, but to actually get a wider market 'involved' in bitcoin requires 'cross-over' products

Interested to hear if anyone agrees, or disagrees?

[Q7]

Hmm while i do agree how come we never get involved in crowd funding for charitable purposes or research project that benefits the community. Maybe there is one being done before or have i missed out? Just to quote the doge clean water initiative or the nascar sponsoring thing...

[TGBEX]

Hmm while i do agree how come we never get involved in crowd funding for charitable purposes or research project that benefits the community. Maybe there is one being done before or have i missed out? Just to quote the doge clean water initiative or the nascar sponsoring thing...

We recently organised a CrypArt QR canvas for donations to a local charity (though was a bit disorganised and didn't receive much support from organisers, so only raised $20) at a conference and hope to do this again better  at future events, so trying!

I guess also Bitcoin adoption should help the world more than anyone could hope to raise through crowd funding?

[crazy-pilot]

Hmm while i do agree how come we never get involved in crowd funding for charitable purposes or research project that benefits the community. Maybe there is one being done before or have i missed out? Just to quote the doge clean water initiative or the nascar sponsoring thing...

Bitcoin and charity does not generally mix very well. It is simply too difficult to verify that someone will actually put the donated money to good use and impossible to recover the money if it is not

[TGBEX]

Hmm while i do agree how come we never get involved in crowd funding for charitable purposes or research project that benefits the community. Maybe there is one being done before or have i missed out? Just to quote the doge clean water initiative or the nascar sponsoring thing...

Bitcoin and charity does not generally mix very well. It is simply too difficult to verify that someone will actually put the donated money to good use and impossible to recover the money if it is not

Disagree on this, bitcoin is built for charities- allows anonymous donations and makes donations more efficient (ease and reduced time and fees)

Imagine an emergency appeal -if a QR code popped up on an approved charity TV advert, donations could be made without having to pick up a phone/ in seconds/ without much of the current hassle…

Bitcoin could then be accessed within minutes in whatever area/ country requires aid

Points you make apply just as much to fiat currency donations (obviously cash more open to theft, as no initial transaction record).

[TGBEX]

First and foremost BTC needs to be pegged to a commodity. 0.00000001 for a loaf of bread and 0.00000002 for a gallon of milk. If that doesn't work at first peg it 0.00000001 to 1 yen or dollar so "Joe Public" can understand and once there we can peg to a commodity. This would stable the price and people would understand it's market value and Bitcoin would go into wide spread use. Bitcoin was not created by some Kid with an idea on summer break. It was carefully thought out and designed by a person very skilled in game theory, encryption, economics, finance, programming, and law.

We are heading to the phase (in the near future) of Satoshi's plan where the governments will start creating regulations about BTC. This will be the "Suspense & Drama" phase. When we reach that part of the game plan where the governments create regulations against the Bitcoin system that the people are already adapting to, these regulations will actually make the people resist and revolt against the old money system even harder. This also creates more people learning about Bitcoin and not wanting the old money system either. Because of this, the government, to some extent, will eventually have to give in. Smart contracts will be the beginning of the completion of the "Kola Ring" that was foreseen and designed into bitcoin by Satoshi. Like I said, this is wasn't created by some Kid.

Printing poster, stickers and keychains is cool, but it isn't the solution. We have to push to get Bitcoin pegged to a commodity.

Governments have started creating regulations already, generally they are being prohibitive due to a lack of understanding/ to play it safe for the time being, but governments (in most places) are elected and why would they not support bitcoin? (financial institutions are a different matter and the pressures they can exert on governments is the only real worry, especially in USA and UK)

Personally I see it as being a parallel system to 'old money' (for at least 10-20 years), but bitcoin only stands a chance of success if adoption keeps increasing

Smart contracts are revolutionary, but how long will it be before they reach the levels of adoption of bitcoin?

Cannot see how you would link bitcoin to any commodity- supply and demand would mean prices should differ?

[TGBEX]

^Please note I go a little strong on these issues since the US is over 170 trillion in debt with only 1.3 trillion in circulation and less than 750 billion actually in banks(in one form or another) and they are still making new "bad" loans everyday through FRB. Something is about to happen in the not too distance future to the middle and lower class that is not going to be good. I just got a letter that said I can't get SS retirement or my elderly health care benefits until I'm 70 so it may not even be there for me if I can physically work that long to get it. I have paid for those out of every paycheck since I was 16 years old. Where's the money?

*My pegging to a commodity comment was influenced by Adam Smith’s “Wealth of Nations”, Adam Muller’s “HyperMoney”, Thomas Edison’s “Commodity Currency”, John Nash’s “Ideal Money” and the help of  Nick Szabo’s acquired knowledge (including “BitGold”) and Wei Dai’s “bmoney”.

Dai: "No, my monetary policy views were firmly mainstream, which considers rapid unpredictable changes in prices, in either direction, to be a really bad thing for a currency. So I designed b-money to have a (((stable value relative to a basket of commodities)))"

Szabo: "This is analogous to what many commodity dealers do today to make commodity markets possible".

Nash: "He proposed that international exchange rates be fixed by (((pegging the value of each currency to a standardized basket of commodities))), called the industrial consumption price index".

Edison: "Commodity Money....this gets rid of debt-based money".

Note: I totally agree with you on the parallel currency issue.

Debt levels in Europe even more unsustainable (France/ Italy could yet bring down the euro) and trade damaged by Russia and trade sanctions, problems are far from country specific- China's demand for commodities drying up is worrying, Ebola could yet wipe us all out before the banks do…..Sorry to hear about the letter, doesn't seem right on any level.

Read a few of those books and studied Keynes, Rostow, Marx etc - problem with economics (like bitcoin) is it keeps evolving, so economic theories and models, 'facts' etc change every 5-10 years, also a bit like the baskets that make up the CPIs!

Parallel currency yes, perhaps also a parallel wealth/ asset system? (firmly believe Hal Finney (RIP) when he spoke of the need for bitcoin to soar in value before it can 'work' - this should come with adoption and has to happen soon before competition messes up everything - tying it to a commodity/ basket would be detrimental and hinder this?)

Spreading bitcoin ownership and widening adoption is important- ETF awaiting approval in US/ investment fund launched in Jersey (UK) could also have an impact soon (if institutions get involved the value has to soar- one fund trying to invest $1bn would push the price up 500-800%?)

Hang on to 1 bitcoin and you will hopefully be ok!

[wingding]

@OP's question

First and foremost BTC needs to be pegged to a commodity. 0.00000001 for a loaf of bread and 0.00000002 for a gallon of milk. If that doesn't work at first peg it 0.00000001 to 1 yen or dollar so "Joe Public" can understand and once there we can peg to a commodity. This would stable the price and people would understand it's market value and Bitcoin would go into a much more wide spread use. Bitcoin was not created by some Kid with an idea on summer break. It was carefully thought out and designed by a person very skilled in game theory, encryption, economics, finance, programming, and law. There is a plan in motion here.

Once we peg to a commodity we can finally head into the phase of Satoshi's plan where the governments will start creating regulations about BTC. It will become the "Suspense & Drama" phase. When we reach that part of the game plan the governments create regulations against the Bitcoin system that the people are already adapting to, these regulations will actually make the people resist and revolt against the old money system even harder. This will also creates more people learning about Bitcoin and not wanting the old money system either. Because of this, the government, to some extent, will eventually have to give in.

Printing posters and stickers and making keychains is cool, and it does get the kids involved, but it isn't the solution. We have to push to get Bitcoin pegged to a commodity.

It is impossible to peg bitcoin to a commodity. The BTC price is determined by hope, fear, belief, greed, etc. However, there is possible to create a cryptocurrency that is strongly pegged to the price of energy. I call it Koomey's coin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=660311.msg7533967#msg7533967

[franky1]

i love when people talk about economic crisis of the world to then talk about bitcoin adoption.

and here is the funny comment i have heard when speaking to groups

Person 1 "bitcoin will oneday be worth $1million each"
person 2 "yep and on that same day a loaf of bread will be worth $20k"




... think about it

[247casino]

Internet start-ups (specialising in retail, security, infrastructure etc) with little to no revenue were getting huge amounts of money from Venture Capital funds in the early 90's (similar to exchanges now)- they went on to float on stock markets and raise even larger amounts years later, but most then disappeared with only a handful recovering to become some of the corporate monsters we see today (google, apple, microsoft etc)

The commercial net really began in mid 90's not early.

MS and Apple existed from the 70's.

They had nothing to do with the 'net' as to being net related when they were formed.

Google is the only thing you mentioned that was a true net startup.

MS and Apple just adapted to the tech of the net, they were both tech giants before the commercial net began.

Vice use is why the global non tech savvy 'user' will adopt btc, silk road was why many early non tech users adopted btc, now it's being fueled by online btc gambling, tech related retailer adoption is only occurring due to how many users of btc now exist and those users adopted to btc to fuel vice related needs, drugs and gambling.

Now the vice of GREED is fueling investors as btc is going 'mainstream'.

As long as vice needs of users see btc as a way to get drugs and gamble the user base will continue to grow and traditional adoption by more and more retialers will continue, the overall impact of btc is how it has transformed drugs, gambling and GREED (investment) industries.

[franky1]

It is impossible to peg bitcoin to a commodity. The BTC price is determined by hope, fear, belief, greed, etc. However, there is possible to create a cryptocurrency that is strongly pegged to the price of energy. I call it Koomey's coin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=660311.msg7533967#msg7533967

pegging to a commodity?? hell no.. simply because the main commodity market can then mess with prices because commodities change value all the time.

how about going to real basics, stripping away bitcoins valuation against other markets.. and just have bitcoin pegged to "hours of labour"

EG cost of living/minimum wage.

that way no matter what country you live in if a bitcoin is worth 50 hours, people can translate that into native currency no matter what currency it is or current level.

this will help stabilize peoples lives even while government screw it up, as people will easily know the measure and what that measure can purchase.

EG a loaf of bread is almost a constant 0.333 hours minimal wage labour so if a bitcoin is worth 50 hours, instant maths makes a bitcoin worth 150 loaves of bread, no matter what country you live in.

idea's like the cost of energy are flawed as energy companies change prices everywhere and each week people wont know how many loaves of bread they can buy with a bitcoin without having to look at energy company websites then their local pricing and then a fiat pricing.

yet a cost of living peg is simpler to understand and calculate without referring to a bitcoin price, then an energy price and then a native fiat price.

for example. knowing 0.333 hours buys a loaf of bread. do the maths
october 2014 bitcoin =50 hours
january 2015 bitcoin = 80 hours
march 2015 bitcoin = 100 hours

did you need to look at an energy or other market website to work out how many loaves of bread u can buy in october, january and march?.. no

for those not good at maths highlight the area below for the answer
october=150 loaves
january=240 loaves
march=300 loaves
for those not good at maths highlight the area above for the answer

[btc-facebook]

Hmm while i do agree how come we never get involved in crowd funding for charitable purposes or research project that benefits the community. Maybe there is one being done before or have i missed out? Just to quote the doge clean water initiative or the nascar sponsoring thing...

Bitcoin and charity does not generally mix very well. It is simply too difficult to verify that someone will actually put the donated money to good use and impossible to recover the money if it is not

Disagree on this, bitcoin is built for charities- allows anonymous donations and makes donations more efficient (ease and reduced time and fees)

Imagine an emergency appeal -if a QR code popped up on an approved charity TV advert, donations could be made without having to pick up a phone/ in seconds/ without much of the current hassle…

Bitcoin could then be accessed within minutes in whatever area/ country requires aid

Points you make apply just as much to fiat currency donations (obviously cash more open to theft, as no initial transaction record).

Charities do not usually rely on anon donations. Even if someone did want to donate without revealing their identity then someone should trust the charity not to reveal their identity if they are going to trust them with their money.

Charities also do not need to raise money with this level of speed. Money received cannot be spent in a matter of hours so there is no reason to need to receive it in a matter of hours. Also if charities were running TV ads with a QR code to donate to then there would be nothing stopping a scammer from running similar ads with a QR code to a fraudulent BTC address.

[wingding]

It is impossible to peg bitcoin to a commodity. The BTC price is determined by hope, fear, belief, greed, etc. However, there is possible to create a cryptocurrency that is strongly pegged to the price of energy. I call it Koomey's coin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=660311.msg7533967#msg7533967

pegging to a commodity?? hell no.. simply because the main commodity market can then mess with prices because commodities change value all the time.

how about going to real basics, stripping away bitcoins valuation against other markets.. and just have bitcoin pegged to "hours of labour"

EG cost of living/minimum wage.

that way no matter what country you live in if a bitcoin is worth 50 hours, people can translate that into native currency no matter what currency it is or current level.

this will help stabilize peoples lives even while government screw it up, as people will easily know the measure and what that measure can purchase.

EG a loaf of bread is almost a constant 0.333 hours minimal wage labour so if a bitcoin is worth 50 hours, instant maths makes a bitcoin worth 150 loaves of bread, no matter what country you live in.

idea's like the cost of energy are flawed as energy companies change prices everywhere and each week people wont know how many loaves of bread they can buy with a bitcoin without having to look at energy company websites then their local pricing and then a fiat pricing.

yet a cost of living peg is simpler to understand and calculate without referring to a bitcoin price, then an energy price and then a native fiat price.

I disagree. Because energy is the fundamental commodity. All human activity an production of goods build upon energy. A global coin tied to energy would not vary according to your local power company, it would average out on global energy/oil price.

[jbreher]

how about going to real basics, stripping away bitcoins valuation against other markets.. and just have bitcoin pegged to "hours of labour"

How about recognizing that there is absolutely no possible way to enforce such a peg?

[franky1]

how about going to real basics, stripping away bitcoins valuation against other markets.. and just have bitcoin pegged to "hours of labour"

How about recognizing that there is absolutely no possible way to enforce such a peg?

how about recognize that there is absolutely no possible way to stop us?

i could start up a website today that mentions no fiat values and just says hours. and let people trade depending on their own native hourly measures.

truly realize you dont need permission from anyone to do whatever you want with bitcoin

[franky1]

I disagree. Because energy is the fundamental commodity. All human activity an production of goods build upon energy. A global coin tied to energy would not vary according to your local power company, it would average out on global energy/oil price.

energy is not a fundamental commodity. labour is
the price of oil energy vs energy prices that come from coal, or solar or gas or hydro all are different. which are all different in different countries. which means if i want to work out how many loaves of bread i can buy with a bitcoin, i have to check out someones "averaged price" which means i have to trust their average, and then because its measured in dollar i then have to convert it to my native currency and then divide it down to work out how many loaves of bread i can buy.

i only use bread as an easy example. but what i mean is that by measuring against cost of living directly to bitcoin, no matter what country you live in would equal the same amount of living cost no matter what.

that way it solves the whole world financial crises as people can easily know a weeks bitcoin wage will buy them a weeks worth of food, rent, bills. without a need, reliance, or worry about price measures of outside sources

[TGBEX]

Internet start-ups (specialising in retail, security, infrastructure etc) with little to no revenue were getting huge amounts of money from Venture Capital funds in the early 90's (similar to exchanges now)- they went on to float on stock markets and raise even larger amounts years later, but most then disappeared with only a handful recovering to become some of the corporate monsters we see today (google, apple, microsoft etc)

The commercial net really began in mid 90's not early.

MS and Apple existed from the 70's.

They had nothing to do with the 'net' as to being net related when they were formed.

Google is the only thing you mentioned that was a true net startup.

MS and Apple just adapted to the tech of the net, they were both tech giants before the commercial net began.

Vice use is why the global non tech savvy 'user' will adopt btc, silk road was why many early non tech users adopted btc, now it's being fueled by online btc gambling, tech related retailer adoption is only occurring due to how many users of btc now exist and those users adopted to btc to fuel vice related needs, drugs and gambling.

Now the vice of GREED is fueling investors as btc is going 'mainstream'.

As long as vice needs of users see btc as a way to get drugs and gamble the user base will continue to grow and traditional adoption by more and more retialers will continue, the overall impact of btc is how it has transformed drugs, gambling and GREED (investment) industries.



You are obviously right about Msoft and Apple (though both emerged as giants and Apple had to be bailed out not long before?)

Greed/ Fear is undoubtedly playing a part in the speculation going on - but adoption is not based entirely on drugs and gambling

Micro-transactions are taking place in coffee shops, bars and for trade in third world countries, international payments etc and this will only grow

Bringing the 'greedy' (investment industry) into bitcoin is the only way it goes mainstream. More it is used for drugs particularly, the more excuses governments and other institutions will have to try and prevent it hitting the mainstream...

[jbreher]

how about going to real basics, stripping away bitcoins valuation against other markets.. and just have bitcoin pegged to "hours of labour"

How about recognizing that there is absolutely no possible way to enforce such a peg?

how about recognize that there is absolutely no possible way to stop us?

i could start up a website today that mentions no fiat values and just says hours. and let people trade depending on their own native hourly measures.

truly realize you dont need permission from anyone to do whatever you want with bitcoin

Well, that just reinforces my point. There is absolutely no way to enforce such a peg.

[bithound]

how about going to real basics, stripping away bitcoins valuation against other markets.. and just have bitcoin pegged to "hours of labour"

How about recognizing that there is absolutely no possible way to enforce such a peg?

how about recognize that there is absolutely no possible way to stop us?

i could start up a website today that mentions no fiat values and just says hours. and let people trade depending on their own native hourly measures.

truly realize you dont need permission from anyone to do whatever you want with bitcoin

Well, that just reinforces my point. There is absolutely no way to enforce such a peg.

Do that man.. Start a website today and do what you said..