[XMG] Coin Magi swap discussion thread

[joelao95]

Coin Magi ANN thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.0

Coin Magi as a continue of prior project has to fulfill the coin swap task. We have taken cautions to carrier out this step, while it has turned out to be very tough to handle it safely and satisfactorily. For new miners and investors, we will make sure coins are in the safe hand and swap is carried out slowly. Please use this thread any discussion on the coin swap; specific topics include

1. Swap ratio

2. Swap time

The initial swap plan:

Coin swap will be done approximately in 5 months, with 5% swapped each week. The precondition of carrying out coin swap is not giving impacts on the XMG price. We may pause swapping any time if we see price degradation due to coin swap.  

So far 5% swapped, i.e., 45,349 XMG swapped; total coins in circulation (swap coin + freshly mined ) are 572,020 XMG. We will find an escrow to hold unswapped coins.

If you have suggestions on the above two topics or any other questions regarding the swap, please post and bring up your concern.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

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[111magic]

My opinion of the swap is: not swapping 1XMG -4 magicoins old!
Better  1XMG - 10 old magicoins.
Payment spread in little parts during 10 weeks time.

Other option is give the guys from the old magicoin community
who are still active and supporting XMG,  some XMG (ratio 1-10) and destroy the rest of the old Magicoins.
The members from the old magicoin community are already in other coins and did not came back in the XMG thread (less than 10) So they will dump XMG soon as they receive the coins.

So, to protect the miners and the new investors, this is the best solution.
I say this not in my advance because i also had a lot of old magicoins.
I do not mind sacrificing for the future of XMG.
XMG is a unique currency and has good prospects

[lionheart78]

send me the old magic they are safe here with me XD just kidding, anyway..  wether or not XMG will survive this swap depends on the effort of the dev team and community, i can see two way here, dumpings of old community = XMG lower = investors got a better deal << this is if XMG marketing strategy is very solid..  another one is dumping of coin till XMG die.. anyway at this early stage XMG life depends greatly on the dev teams capability to counter the coin swap influx, im not a fan of burning coins for your burning someones supposed to be profit,and as for the swap ratio .. i dont mind, dev team knws the best., either 1:10 or 1:4; XMG need community involvement, merchant adoption which i knw the dev team is working on, no matter how much coin is dump as long as the team never gave up on finding innovative ways to develop the coin's market... and making community involve at all time,    XMG will be fine ^^ but hey too much giveaway can kill the coin value at times too just my thought

[Arakhne]

I think I should post it here too:

I also would like to mention here that your attitude against the swap-coin matter DOES build trust on you as dev and on Magi. Why? As someone with no magi (old) I really appreciate your efforts towards those people who had support for the old coin, It is a strong argument that you still do your best to protect old investors (support wise), which makes me feel that you will do the same for this coin too
   I really do not have too much ideas about swap-coin, and that's why I am silent on that thread, BUT I wanted to mention that swap-coin IS a very good clue towards the fact that the DEV will not abandon us, XMG enthusiasts so easyly

[matrix961]

Magicoin was one of the first I solo mined. Never sold what I had. If my 1078 get swapped I won't sell those either. I remember the first magic blocks I found, I thought something was wrong lol...good times

Anyways I agree that this process should be slow. I have to think about the current miners and price. It needs to be fair to them as well. The way the coin has changed I think the ratio is very generous and would completely understand if it was changed to 1:10 as well. One hell of a task to balance it all. Big thanks to dev for keeping the old miners in mind.

[IMJim]

I still don't get this!  Felt I should respond here as well since you started a thread on the subject, but will say the same as before.  You laid out the rules to the swap, I sent in my old coins with the promise  I would get a 4 to 1 ratio for the coins I sent in, this should NOT be changed after the fact......PERIOD!  It is flat out wrong to change that after taking someone's coins!

By sending in ALL of my coins, I also agreed to your original terms even though a bit odd to be drip fed back my coins at a 75% reduction over a possible 5 month period.  I still agreed to this by sending my coins, you agreed to honor your proposed swap terms by accepting them.  I did this as I also found some  understanding of what you were trying to do to help the coin and its value, so please don't take this as me not having appreciation for your efforts or what you are trying to do......I have been involved how I could be since the beginning and have allocated some decent resources to this coin and project as an early adopter.

After my previous post, I was hit up via PM being asked for donations.  I found this to be a bit weird to be honest.  I have sent ALL my coins to the swap address, I have NONE of my previously mined holdings and I have not made a single dime from my involvement with MagiCoin.  I am VERY broke and could use some fricken donations myself!  I have given what I have to give to MagiCoin, which albeit has not been much.  I cannot give time and I cannot give donations, I am empty of both such resources!  Am sitting over 25K in the hole with mining equipment I purchased at the most horrible time, so to say I am VERY protective of my portfolio of coins I worked VERY hard to acquire is putting it very mildly!

Seems many here are worried about dumpers, I for one am not a dumper.....I continue to build upon my portfolio of coins I feel hold promise.....MagiCoin being one of them.......BUT, it doesn't matter.  What people do with their coins is THEIR business and it should not be in consideration how you guys or anyone can control that!  People that paid for their holdings in time, money, electricity or whatever.......PAID for them and have the right to do whatever they see fit with them!  I did not allocate the resources to mine this coin when it first launched so someone else could tell me what I could or could not do with them.

None of this really matters one bit after the fact that the swap has already started!  An agreement was publicly made prior to accepting any of the old coins, to change those terms after accepting people's coins will destroy this coin as it is VERY unethical to do so, perhaps and likely illegal as well.  The only thing that was mentioned in this agreement that "may" fluctuate was the duration in which the coins would be given back, NOT the number of coins to be returned.

[djm34]

Seems many here are worried about dumpers, I for one am not a dumper.....I continue to build upon my portfolio of coins I feel hold promise.....MagiCoin being one of them.......BUT, it doesn't matter.  What people do with their coins is THEIR business and it should not be in consideration how you guys or anyone can control that!  People that paid for their holdings in time, money, electricity or whatever.......PAID for them and have the right to do whatever they see fit with them!  I did not allocate the resources to mine this coin when it first launched so someone else could tell me what I could or could not do with them.

None of this really matters one bit after the fact that the swap has already started!  An agreement was publicly made prior to accepting any of the old coins, to change those terms after accepting people's coins will destroy this coin as it is VERY unethical to do so, perhaps and likely illegal as well.  The only thing that was mentioned in this agreement that "may" fluctuate was the duration in which the coins would be given back, NOT the number of coins to be returned.

I think it is part of dev job to protect the future of its coin, so it is everybody business what other people do with their coins. (unless you are happy with a portfolio of dead coins... but at least you don't need to be very protective to keep them  )

I must say first that I am rather against coin swap because it is usually the last chance to dump for some bag holders ( and they won't hesitate to do so especially if they don't participate in the new coin...) and to be honest like many other miners,I don't feel like mining for their "out of jail card".

So at least either they are part of xmg community and something must be done for them either they are not and well goodbye  (considering they are probably responsible for the failure of magi...  )
Also I don't see why dev should be binded to what he said regarding the swap rate as practically nobody showed up in xmg
In any agreement, every side should respect their part of the agreement, I assume the coin swap implies at least to support xmg in return
(seriously why they should get anything if they don't do anything ?)

So ex-magi people who don't support xmg, have absolutely no right to claim xmg, no matter what say Joelao in the past  
(actually the "proof of mining" should be for the ex magi community the way they show support to the coin).

Regarding 1 to 4 exchange rate, I think also it is a little too high (1 to 10 would certainly be better).
Considering the difficulty to get xmg, it looks to me as a giveaway...
I understand that coin dev said that, but that was before he moved the algo to cpu only.
So this should be taken into account when swapping the coin.
 

[joelao95]

IMJim, thanks for comments; firstly, who is asking you for donations? I never realized that donations was "asked", and I never asked people to or I sent out this kind of PMs.

I pretty understood what you have said and the topics you have covered. There is one particular topic that no body has talked about, that is basically the reason I raised the swap thread:
I have been asked by a few people, PM/posts, about their concern of coin swap, a real issue holding back their interests on the coin.

As you can see, the purpose of raising up the swap discussion is not purely to diminish magicoin holder profits, but rather we're trying to find solutions to remove these concerns. I don't like speaking of future development to get XMG accepted by that time, but like to take care of most of concerns at the beginning. Think about the things straight, less miners/investors in XMG => lessvalue of XMG => less value of old coins. I'd like to see our prior magicoin holders, as a community, can gather together and think about an approach to the concern; this will be where prior coin holders' contribution to the new XMG community is. Donations won't help on this matter anyway, also I won't force our members to do so.

Think about the plan the other way around, if we use 1:1 magicoin:XMG and carrier out swap immediately after the launch, I pretty sure no one will be interested to XMG, or those people mined just dump what they have. I hope you all still remembered the tough time we had about the coin swap (right before XMG launch), that led to reduced swap ratio, and the delayed plan. The delayed plan worked somehow since XMG gets people's attentions. Seems like we are good since people are asking about the swap (not like people just ignore this coin), and I therefore believe this is the time to come up with something.

[IMJim]

IMJim, thanks for comments; firstly, who is asking you for donations? I never realized that donations was "asked", and I never asked people to or I sent out this kind of PMs.

I pretty understood what you have said and the topics you have covered. There is one particular topic that no body has talked about, that is basically the reason I raised the swap thread:
I have been asked by a few people, PM/posts, about their concern of coin swap, a real issue holding back their interests on the coin.

As you can see, the purpose of raising up the swap discussion is not purely to diminish magicoin holder profits, but rather we're trying to find solutions to remove these concerns. I don't like speaking of future development to get XMG accepted by that time, but like to take care of most of concerns at the beginning. Think about the things straight, less miners/investors in XMG => lessvalue of XMG => less value of old coins. I'd like to see our prior magicoin holders, as a community, can gather together and think about an approach to the concern; this will be where prior coin holders' contribution to the new XMG community is. Donations won't help on this matter anyway, also I won't force our members to do so.

Think about the plan the other way around, if we use 1:1 magicoin:XMG and carrier out swap immediately after the launch, I pretty sure no one will be interested to XMG, or those people mined just dump what they have. I hope you all still remembered the tough time we had about the coin swap (right before XMG launch), that led to reduced swap ratio, and the delayed plan. The delayed plan worked somehow since XMG gets people's attentions. Seems like we are good since people are asking about the swap (not like people just ignore this coin), and I therefore believe this is the time to come up with something.

Thank you for your reply brother and the timing could not have been better, I had just hit the reply to the previous post with much frustration and was about to let some frustration out with my words.

The first reply to my earlier post seemed to be filled with what felt like some pretty insane thoughts and notions, like it being other people's business what others do with their own investments!

You asked me who contacted me asking for donations, that was 111magic.  Felt it was pretty silly to ask me to donate some of my old magicoins in response to a post i had just made saying I had already sent them all in for the swap!

Listen man, I really am a nice guy and DO believe in community and support and the last thing I want to do is stir up trouble in any coin's community, most especially one that I am personally invested in.  I am however typically in the front of the line in speaking out when I don't feel something is right!  When I sent over 200k of the old magi coins in, it was stated that I would be getting 25% of them back in XMG, this is the ONLY thing that I feel is wrong here.  And bro, I totally understand and even agree with your reasoning for not doing a 1:1 swap.....is why I sent in what I did knowing I would only get 25% back.  If you went into a bank and deposited 100,000 dollars with the promise to be paid 5% annually on your money and at the end of the year, they told you they would only pay you 1% after taking your money, you would be upset about that right?  The principle is the same here, I gave you my coins with the agreement you would give me back 25% in XMG, now that I have sent you those coins on that promise it is being discussed to lower that amount.  This is the ONLY thing I have a problem with but it seems like others are taking this to mean something much more and it is not, it is a very simple thing to me.

It was my understanding that the 25% return and drip feeding paybacks out over a 5 month period were the "concluded" resolution to the concerns you mention.  To now be hearing there may be a further reduction in the amount to be paid back, just seems very wrong and unethical.

"So ex-magi people who don't support xmg, have absolutely no right to claim xmg, no matter what say Joelao in the past".......WHAT?!  So people that supported this project early on and who spent money, time and other resources to support the project should be cast aside empty handed?!  Dude, I remember being one of the ONLY people showing enough interest in this project to keep mining and to keep the blockchain going, the pools at one point were like ghost towns.....I still mined.......did YOU before everything was looking so promising?  I'm sorry but this statement pisses me off!

Since the relaunch I have continued to "try" and support this project, but have made it known in several posts that I could not keep up with the technical discussions that have filled these threads the past couple of months.  I am also extremely limited with the time I have to invest into crypto as I run a consulting business, time is simply just NOT something I can give in support of this project, never has been.  I don't think this makes it right to cast me aside and label me as an "ex-magi person" as I have supported in the ways I could for longer than most posting in these threads today.

When this project started working towards this new CPU only algo, holy cow the conversations change.  I literally would come on here and scratch my head not being able to understand what the hell anyone was talking about, with very limited time.....this was pretty frustrating to me, so I honestly had to stop trying to understand what was going on here and roll with the punches so to speak.

Sorry for the long winded rant!  I really hope I have not offended anyone here, it was truly not my intent!

[joelao95]

Understood Jim, let's not focusing on the swap plan to be changed or not, but on the suggestions of this matter:

I have been asked by a few people, PM/posts, about their concern of coin swap, a real issue holding back their interests on the coin.

(Also people of our team received similar messages like that he mined and bought about thousands of XMG but realized the swap)

By coming up with something, I can tell people, hey man, this is not a concern at all, here is why ....

 

Let's focus on the most important part as to how to improve XMG from old coin holders point of view.

[joelao95]

At some point, DJM is right; we have changed a lot since the beginning when we were thinking of using M7 GPU logo. And I was expecting there are a lot coins minted in 1st month; the situation is now very much different from what's been designed. I didn't think of the CPU mining, but now we might rely on this point, that is quite what we can use to advertise this coin.

[Lightsplasher]

I think the plan to put the coins in escrow and go ahead with the 4 to 1 payments on the swap is reasonable.   I hope we can continue with this plan and put it behind us and focus on XMG.  I my opinion this should have been done right from the start as per original plan and I feel it is getting more difficult to take this action without messing up the existing XMG coin.

I supported the original coin, mining it with hardware and power that I could have put into other coins at the time and never traded any of them.  That was my decision and there is a lost opportunity cost in the time and effort involved in the support of the original coin.  These things happen and I would appreciate some return on this effort, however, I'm fine with just using the swap coins to support XMG if that is what is decided.  I honestly thought it was a bit of a long shot at that time anyway and in my case putting my hash into something like litecoin would not have returned me much anyway.

Understandably most exchanges and investors would feel such as large group of coins in the control of one individual could lead to problems. If the swap is not done as planned they need to be properly dealt with.  One option could be to just declare it as a premine to be used to pay bounties and fund other promotions.  Having a board of directors to disperse these funds and a public record of how they are used would be my suggestions if this course is taken.  

If we go this route I would suggest we refund as soon as possible all unswapped original magic coins taken for the swap.  These coins may go up in value now that no new coins are being produced and I think the existing markets could take care of the exchange, everyone is free to sell these coins and purchase XMG or promote the original magic coin if that is what they want to do.  In fact, couldn't we just tweak the magic coin a bit and release a new version (maybe by adding a small 5 coin PoW block reward back and high percent PoS, two minute block time) and keep mining away on it?

Here is my theory on why the original coin took a tumble:  Many people invested in scrypt mining hardware and the sudden jump from GPU based mining to gridseeds unbalanced the mining to the point where most scrypt based coins without a large enough community had issues.  I'm very supportive of the design decision to go to CPU mining and add PoS based on what was happening; I think it was the right move.  A coin with just a few huge miners and a small community shows less potential and I think Joe has been very good about trying to avoid this situation and we are seeing the results now in XMG.  Using the coin swap coins in the right kind of promotions could really help build the community.

Whatever happens is just plain alright with me.  Not much help I know.  

[IMJim]

"I have been asked by a few people, PM/posts, about their concern of coin swap, a real issue holding back their interests on the coin. "

What does this mean exactly? 

It appears the concerns of "new" investors are more important than that of old investors?  Maybe I am missing something hence the question, I have said it has been very difficult for me to keep up with everything going on here.

I can't understand why new investors wouldn't be happy with knowing old investors took a 75% cut in what their resources earned them before, while waiting 5 months to get that.  It sounds to me like your response to this question should be exactly what you have already proposed with perhaps adding that your early supporters deserve being rewarded as well. 

You completely separate the coins (as suggested previously if I understood that correctly), the original investors and supporters get screwed as the value for that coin will plummet, the value of XMG will follow suit as it will lose its old supporters.

I don't know, maybe my voice should be smaller than others as I cannot say I have been able to keep up with all the latest happenings here.  Maybe I don't fully understand the issue bringing this matter up again, all I am is an early adopter and investor that didn't like reading what I read.

In the end I suppose you have to do what you think is best for majority of the community, but I can't say I won't be pissed to see my investment in MagiCoin go to crap because new potential investors think it's unfair to reward early adopters!

[111magic]

I'm sorry but I have to really react.
I follow bitcointalk for a while now. First passive (as a reader no account), and then active.
I learned a lot from that.
This is what I want to tell you:
Its correct i send a pm to IMJim about donating some of his old magicoins for the fund of XMG.
I did that because of this post of him. (Since IMJim said he is in possession of more than 200k old magicoins and asked about the swap)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.msg9158725#msg9158725
Reason why I did that was the following.
This is because XMG is a fair coin and has no premine.
It's not stupid to ask this because even though the coins are already sent to the swap they are still your coins.
Joe has kept a list.

This is the message that I sent
Hi IMJim,

I agree with some thing you say.
I had also a lot of "old magicoins"
Still i don't see a lot of old Magicoin members in the new XMG thread.
I don't know how many coins the dev received for the swap.
if this is not a very high ammount than i think he would make a deadline for the Swap. After the deadline he can swap the coins in pieces to protect the market.
The people who did not react in time are not following the XMG thread and only want to sell to gain profit.

another thing i posted a long post in the XMG thread about donations and nobody react on that. Please read it and maybe you would like to donate also some "old magicoins".
hopefully if more people do this, others will follow.
As a result, there will be fewer coins are needed for the swap and the developer can do more to promotion costs.

Here is the link of my post.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.msg9152657#msg9152657

Greetings 111magic

I have not just asked to donate but first read my long post.
and said that after reading you might want to donate.


I must say that I have received responses on that post later.

IMJim you have not responded to my pm.
That might have been better to exchange together our ideas.
Now iám forced to look at facts.

When I read the posts of IMJim I noticed several things.

IMJim said in his post:
"Since the relaunch I have continued to "try" and support this project, but have made it known in several posts that I could not keep up with the technical discussions that have filled these threads the past couple of months.  I am also extremely limited with the time I have to invest into crypto as I run a consulting business, time is simply just NOT something I can give in support of this project, never has been."

You say you do not have time for crypto.
You have placed more than 300 posts in the last month.
Only 10 posts in the XMG thread. (a few of them about the swap)
Thats 3.33% of all your post!
What do you mean no time?
if you keep asking about the swap and reacts on nothing else you doing this for own greed.
it is not the intention that the XMG investors have to pay for your profit.

It is true that it is difficult to obtain new investors because the Swap blocks that.
Not only for new investors but also for big exchanges.

The following is fair:
the old magicoin had a value of approximately 0.00000500BTC
XMG has a value of approximately 0.00005BTC
The value of XMG is thus 10 times higher than that of the old magicoin.
This has already said by Joe.
I read that several people agree to this.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=735170.msg9111697#msg9111697
You have not responded on this post from Joe.

I have already indicated that this is not in my favor.
But it is fair. I think honesty is important.
There are currently few old members of the community magicoin active in the XMG thread.
Some support XMG huge and say swap 1-10 is also fair.
For the future of XMG and the protection of the miners, I think it is an excellent solution.
Swap 1-10 and payout spread in pieces. Payout time 10 weeks. Every week a piece.
It protect the market, miners and investors!!

IMJim it is not supposed to start a personal vendetta here. You're forcing me to look at the facts.
I hope you can sympathize. I read your last postin the original tread . That's a nice gesture!
Well done.

[Sy]

Math would say we take the number of XMG mined after ~3 month (the old coin was mined for around 4.5 month), 1 month doesnt work since the reward got changed too much, plan B would be the avg since the reward adjustment.

Then extrapolate the amount of coins you would have mined after 4.5 month and you got your ratio - bad part is, that doesn't really work anymore since 5% already got swapped, making it kinda unfair but you could say the same for mining with initial reward and adapted so - thats my suggestion. Never swap more than 5-10% of total coins and do it week by week until you are done.

That seems to be the "fairest" solution imho although you can't really compare them to begin with, the old one fits right into the asic releases, making it was easier and more efficient to mine for the lucky ones plus lots of ppl had their gpu farms ready, waiting for coins to jump.

[joelao95]

"I have been asked by a few people, PM/posts, about their concern of coin swap, a real issue holding back their interests on the coin. "

What does this mean exactly?  

It appears the concerns of "new" investors are more important than that of old investors?  Maybe I am missing something hence the question, I have said it has been very difficult for me to keep up with everything going on here.

I can't understand why new investors wouldn't be happy with knowing old investors took a 75% cut in what their resources earned them before, while waiting 5 months to get that.  It sounds to me like your response to this question should be exactly what you have already proposed with perhaps adding that your early supporters deserve being rewarded as well.  

You completely separate the coins (as suggested previously if I understood that correctly), the original investors and supporters get screwed as the value for that coin will plummet, the value of XMG will follow suit as it will lose its old supporters.

I don't know, maybe my voice should be smaller than others as I cannot say I have been able to keep up with all the latest happenings here.  Maybe I don't fully understand the issue bringing this matter up again, all I am is an early adopter and investor that didn't like reading what I read.

In the end I suppose you have to do what you think is best for majority of the community, but I can't say I won't be pissed to see my investment in MagiCoin go to crap because new potential investors think it's unfair to reward early adopters!

Jim, I must admit that I am somehow biased on the new XMG investors/miners, and I am sure some people won't be happy with this, but I must be transparent to what I am thinking. But also this doesn't mean I am gonna tell you to sacrifice's old coin holders' benefits to protect the new coin. Well the situation is more complicated than being saying; this is why the thread live here for discussion. My thinking actually is very simply: XMG gives new life to Magicoin for which I don't see a clear future. I have to admit this fact.

What old magicoin reacts really puts a limit on the growth of XMG:

1) I've mentioned the coin swap incident right before the launch (not sure if you've seen those posts). The pre-ann thread was here few weeks, but still people didn't notice the coin swap (I won't blame people for this); and suddently people noticed the swap. Some people suggest we should not talk about swap in the thread too much, but luckily we talked about it and have people accepted our plan (1:x ratio and delay swap); that was a pain, but we passed it over; it's very clear that XMG would fail at its born if we stick to the plan.

2) And now, XMG did get attention, but that's not enough; we get another barrier that people concern about the swap. There is no reason for me to resist to the continue growth when we can.

I don't want to talk much at the first place about how much pain we will get, people's loss / gain and what things we should avoid, but rather like to brain storm what we can do to help XMG; and then come back see how that soltion conflicts with people's demand and a possible solution can be compromised too.

If we really concern the further depression of coin swap ratio; Lightsplasher does propose good options: refund all or a part of magicoins back to old holders, only part of coins will be swapped with a swap ratio still at 1:4. This very much sounds a good option to go. We can destroy the unswapped XMG then. I will be back to this ASAP and see how people react, so that refunding can be processed soon once we go with this option.

[joelao95]

Math would say we take the number of XMG mined after ~3 month (the old coin was mined for around 4.5 month), 1 month doesnt work since the reward got changed too much, plan B would be the avg since the reward adjustment.

Then extrapolate the amount of coins you would have mined after 4.5 month and you got your ratio - bad part is, that doesn't really work anymore since 5% already got swapped, making it kinda unfair but you could say the same for mining with initial reward and adapted so - thats my suggestion. Never swap more than 5-10% of total coins and do it week by week until you are done.

That seems to be the "fairest" solution imho although you can't really compare them to begin with, the old one fits right into the asic releases, making it was easier and more efficient to mine for the lucky ones plus lots of ppl had their gpu farms ready, waiting for coins to jump.

I am fine with this option; at the same time we can refund a part of old magicoins so people don't need to just wait for XMG and they can do something with that too. Anyone else stands for this option?

[IMJim]

Personally I think this is a crap solution.  Course you're gonna have people on both sides of the fence, everyone is gonna side with their investments.  New investors want to see the old get screwed so their bag is more valuable, old investors want to see their previous efforts and support to be fruitful.

To favor new investors over your early adopters and supporters is sad however and I foresee it putting a bad light upon this project.  As soon as you do this, the old MagiCoin will become crap and valueless, so those that were here early on and supporting this project get screwed.  Your basically dropping one coin to move to another, so in 3-4 months what is to stop that insanity from happening again?!  It flat out wrong man, we spent money, time and effort to support Magicoin and now get kicked to the curb.  We are no different than those who are newly supporting this coin now, we deserve to see some rewards for that just as all these people now will deserve something months down the road for supporting it now......but if something changes that makes it make sense to kick them to the curb for greener pasture, that is exactly what will be done.  It's fricken stupid!  You're gonna kill this coin by doing this as you will lose much trust and faith from the community, even from many of those claiming they support this notion now.  You can't stab your early supporters in the back like that and drop em like a bag of rocks and not have repercussions, people will know you would just as easily do it to them.

And to 111magic.......dude, a bit creepy that would feel the need for me to explain my time and control my personal investments!  300 posts blah blah, what do you mean you don't have time........dude, I am NOT going to justify my time with you, PERIOD.....you creep me out with the notion that I should answer that question or that you would take the time to look into me like that!

[joelao95]

Hey Jim, don't be like that, really unnecessary, we are discussing but haven't made decisions.

I need your direct answers about the plan: at the what ratio coins should be swapped? and how long does it need to take to finish the swap? Do you agree with refund a part? Any things else?

Let me collect your answers, and then I will sort out possible solutions, and let people to vote. How do you think?

[IMJim]

Bro, I am sorry man....I really don't mean to be a jerk or stir up crap.  I honestly feel like I am getting shafted and it is very frustrating!  I also felt somewhat attacked as if I had to explain myself with 111magic's last post.  I don't know what other suggestions I can offer you man, I was ok with the terms how they were set before I sent in my old coins.  I honestly felt that was a fair proposal to all, I mean we gotta get something for our support all those months, and I also understand and support the need to attract new investors.  To discuss giving them all back now and not swapping anything to give to the early supporters, I just don't know what to say to that.

"we are discussing but haven't made decisions".  It was my understanding that discussions had previously taken place and a decision was in fact made, if you want my direct answer to this I have given it......I personally think it should stay as it was previously decided.  1:4 swap is fair to me.

"How long does it need", this is less important as you made it well known this would fluctuate depending how things went, I personally don't care how long.....if it is 5 months so beit, have no intention to dump and no words would be broken as you made this perfectly clear in your first proposal.

"Do you agree with a refund part", no I don't as those coins will be useless and would give the statement you are dropping one coin for another instead of making it better.

"anything else".......not that I can think of.