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Poll
Question: Which statement is true
Bitcoin is democratic - 31 (23.5%)
Bitcoin is not democratic - 39 (29.5%)
Bitcoin is neither democratic nor nondemocratic - 30 (22.7%)
Bitcoin is both democratic and nondemocratic - 10 (7.6%)
It depends on what the definition of "is" is. - 22 (16.7%)
Total Voters: 131

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Author Topic: Is bitcoin democratic?  (Read 7533 times)
Portnoy
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November 26, 2012, 10:55:36 PM
 #81

Explain to me a better social system than one where everyone is given a voice and allowed equal participation?
Who here has suggested a social system where everyone ISN'T given a voice and allowed equal participation? Both liberal democracy and ancap allow free speech. Democracy doesn't always mean equal participation, either - for example:
* Elected representatives and judges can participate in ways you can't.
* Some sub-jurisdictions (states/territories/cities) have more political power per capita than others.
* Some democracies ban felons, children, the mentally ill, and non-citizen residents from voting.
* Minority political groups might not be listed on the ballot, or be completely disqualified after the primaries.

I don't mean to imply you support any of those things - but democracy neither guarantees nor is the sole path to having a voice and equal participation in a society.

Indeed.  Democracy relies on inequality (giving an exclusive clique of people superpowers over everyone else) in order to (allegedly) "bring about equality".

That's like saying "In order for me to give you a rape-free life, I'mma gonna have to rape you now."

IOW, absurd.

So you disagree with the common definition of democracy?
In other words you want to impose your meaning on others instead of accepting the consensual majority view ( i.e. the definition found in such places as
dictionaries. )?  Is it more important to you to have a crusade against that word, based on your definition, or to try and understand what I, and others,
are actually trying to say.

After all I have said do you think, that when I use the word democracy, I am actually advocating an exclusive clique having special privileges and powers
over everyone else?  Seriously?   

Well lets forget about that word for the moment and tell me instead if you agree with this?

"The best social system is one where everyone is given a voice and allowed equal participation."

Yes such a system, which some of us might call a "democracy", does often involve something that might be called "sacrifice" but is perhaps better called "compromise".
Its also called "playing nice" and "getting along with others" ...  something most people learned in kindergarten.   Wink


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November 26, 2012, 11:00:32 PM
 #82

I think of "democratic" as an adjective as "by the people, for the people." I think that fits Bitcoin.

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November 26, 2012, 11:16:10 PM
 #83

"The best social system is one where everyone is given a voice and allowed equal participation."

I certainly don't agree with that. There are probably no situations where everone deserves an equal voice. If we're deciding what to do with my property, my voice is the only voice that matters; it's my property.

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November 26, 2012, 11:17:26 PM
 #84


do you think, that when I use the word democracy, I am actually advocating an exclusive clique having special privileges and powers
over everyone else
?  Seriously?  


That's what observably happens in every democracy, is it not?  Unless you distort and pervert reality to deny what your eyes can see, I don't see how you could refute that.

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November 26, 2012, 11:18:46 PM
 #85

"The best social system is one where everyone is given a voice and allowed equal participation."

I certainly don't agree with that. There are probably no situations where everone deserves an equal voice. If we're deciding what to do with my property, my voice is the only voice that matters; it's my property.

It's cool that people want to have a voice and are allowed to speak.  It's not cool when they start to aggressively impose their criteria on others.  That principle rules out both rape and democracy.

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November 26, 2012, 11:20:09 PM
 #86

I think of "democratic" as an adjective as "by the people, for the people." I think that fits Bitcoin.

And some, like Lincoln, would include, "of the people", and I feel that is a good description of democracy and yes, fits what Bitcoin is about.

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Rudd-O
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November 26, 2012, 11:22:13 PM
 #87

I think of "democratic" as an adjective as "by the people, for the people." I think that fits Bitcoin.

And some, like Lincoln, would include, "of the people", and I feel that is a good description of democracy and yes, fits what Bitcoin is about.

We already have a word to describe "by the people, for the people, of the people".  The word is called populist.  No need to conflate democracy with populism.  Clear thinking starts with clear concepts.

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Portnoy
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November 26, 2012, 11:23:12 PM
 #88


do you think, that when I use the word democracy, I am actually advocating an exclusive clique having special privileges and powers
over everyone else
?  Seriously?  


That's what observably happens in every democracy, is it not?  Unless you distort and pervert reality to deny what your eyes can see, I don't see how you could refute that.

Not in my bookclub; we get along just fine. And do we need any more example to prove the statement, that it happens in every democracy, false?  

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Portnoy
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November 26, 2012, 11:28:27 PM
 #89

"The best social system is one where everyone is given a voice and allowed equal participation."

I certainly don't agree with that. There are probably no situations where everone deserves an equal voice. If we're deciding what to do with my property, my voice is the only voice that matters; it's my property.

Note I said "social system" which perhaps can be differentiated from private matters.  There is also nothing stopping us from including in a democracy things like constitutions and bills of rights and charters ensuring individual rights etc. etc.  Such things can help with the potential "tyranny of the majority" problem. 

But lets hear yours, and also Rudd-o, ideas on a better system. 


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Portnoy
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November 26, 2012, 11:31:18 PM
 #90

I think of "democratic" as an adjective as "by the people, for the people." I think that fits Bitcoin.

And some, like Lincoln, would include, "of the people", and I feel that is a good description of democracy and yes, fits what Bitcoin is about.

We already have a word to describe "by the people, for the people, of the people".  The word is called populist.  No need to conflate democracy with populism.  Clear thinking starts with clear concepts.

And we also have an excellent general term called "democracy."  Get yourself a dictionary. It will help you with that clear thinking problem you seem to be having.   Wink


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Rudd-O
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November 26, 2012, 11:39:23 PM
 #91


And we also have an excellent general term called "democracy."  Get yourself a dictionary. It will help you with that clear thinking problem you seem to be having.   Wink


You first imply that I'm wrong by saying "get a dictionary" and then you imply that I am somehow the victim of "befuddled thinking".

That's a clever manipulative non-argument composed entirely of attacks and discrediting, but it changes nothing: you're still wrong, and you prove it over and over by not being able or willing to advance arguments proving that you're right.

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Rudd-O
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November 26, 2012, 11:42:24 PM
 #92


do you think, that when I use the word democracy, I am actually advocating an exclusive clique having special privileges and powers
over everyone else
?  Seriously?  


That's what observably happens in every democracy, is it not?  Unless you distort and pervert reality to deny what your eyes can see, I don't see how you could refute that.

Not in my bookclub; we get along just fine. And do we need any more example to prove the statement, that it happens in every democracy, false?  

How exactly is your book club a "democracy"?  Define "democracy" (don't just make up a definition, of course) and then demonstrate that your book club fits this definition (not in a "well, X is kinda like Y" -- that's not an argument I will accept).  Of course, be prepared to be challenged by common dictionary definitions.

Let's see how clear your thinking is.

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Rudd-O
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November 26, 2012, 11:42:56 PM
 #93


Note I said "social system" which perhaps can be differentiated from private matters.



Private relationships are social systems too.

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November 27, 2012, 12:54:50 AM
 #94

"The best social system is one where everyone is given a voice and allowed equal participation."

Yes such a system, which some of us might call a "democracy", does often involve something that might be called "sacrifice" but is perhaps better called "compromise".
Its also called "playing nice" and "getting along with others" ...  something most people learned in kindergarten.   Wink

What a nice way to describe mob rule.  Roll Eyes

To answer your question, if one's goal is to live in a society that has the freedom to maximize it's potential the best social system is the one where each participant has the freedom to live, to own and be in absolute control over their body and their property, meaning no involuntary participation or taxation.

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Portnoy
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November 27, 2012, 01:21:48 AM
 #95


And we also have an excellent general term called "democracy."  Get yourself a dictionary. It will help you with that clear thinking problem you seem to be having.   Wink


You first imply that I'm wrong by saying "get a dictionary" and then you imply that I am somehow the victim of "befuddled thinking".

I didn't say you were wrong but that there can be more than one word for any particular concept. 

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November 27, 2012, 01:23:58 AM
 #96


And we also have an excellent general term called "democracy."  Get yourself a dictionary. It will help you with that clear thinking problem you seem to be having.   Wink


You first imply that I'm wrong by saying "get a dictionary" and then you imply that I am somehow the victim of "befuddled thinking".

I didn't say you were wrong but that there can be more than one word for any particular concept. 

You said more than that, and you know it.

We're waiting for you to defend your ideas.

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November 27, 2012, 01:27:28 AM
 #97


do you think, that when I use the word democracy, I am actually advocating an exclusive clique having special privileges and powers
over everyone else
?  Seriously?  


That's what observably happens in every democracy, is it not?  Unless you distort and pervert reality to deny what your eyes can see, I don't see how you could refute that.

Not in my bookclub; we get along just fine. And do we need any more example to prove the statement, that it happens in every democracy, false?  

How exactly is your book club a "democracy"?  Define "democracy" (don't just make up a definition, of course) and then demonstrate that your book club fits this definition (not in a "well, X is kinda like Y" -- that's not an argument I will accept).  Of course, be prepared to be challenged by common dictionary definitions.

Let's see how clear your thinking is.

It is democratic. It is of the people in the bookclub by the people in the bookclub for the people of the bookclub. It adheres to the principle of equality of rights and privileges for all members of the bookclub.  


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Portnoy
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November 27, 2012, 01:28:31 AM
 #98


Note I said "social system" which perhaps can be differentiated from private matters.



Private relationships are social systems too.

Fine... did you also read what I said about constitutions and charters of rights and freedoms? 

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November 27, 2012, 01:31:24 AM
 #99


do you think, that when I use the word democracy, I am actually advocating an exclusive clique having special privileges and powers
over everyone else
?  Seriously?  


That's what observably happens in every democracy, is it not?  Unless you distort and pervert reality to deny what your eyes can see, I don't see how you could refute that.

Not in my bookclub; we get along just fine. And do we need any more example to prove the statement, that it happens in every democracy, false?  

How exactly is your book club a "democracy"?  Define "democracy" (don't just make up a definition, of course) and then demonstrate that your book club fits this definition (not in a "well, X is kinda like Y" -- that's not an argument I will accept).  Of course, be prepared to be challenged by common dictionary definitions.

Let's see how clear your thinking is.

It is democratic. It is of the people in the bookclub by the people in the bookclub for the people of the bookclub. It adheres to the principle of equality of rights and privileges for all members of the bookclub.  



You did not answer any of my questions, thus we do not yet know whether your book club is "democratic" or not.

So, in the interest of actually having a rational conversation, can you respond to the questions I asked?  They are, to wit:

1. How exactly is your book club a "democracy"?  "It is democratic" is not a response.

2. Define "democracy".  You did not do that.

3. Demonstrate that your book club fits this definition

4. Be prepared to be challenged by common dictionary definitions.

If you're not going to address what is being asked of you to prove your hypotheses, at least do me (and everyone else) the favor of not contributing more noise to the conversation?  Thanks.

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November 27, 2012, 01:32:06 AM
 #100

"The best social system is one where everyone is given a voice and allowed equal participation."

Yes such a system, which some of us might call a "democracy", does often involve something that might be called "sacrifice" but is perhaps better called "compromise".
Its also called "playing nice" and "getting along with others" ...  something most people learned in kindergarten.   Wink

What a nice way to describe mob rule.  Roll Eyes

And what would you prefer? Every man for himself?  

Quote
To answer your question, if one's goal is to live in a society that has the freedom to maximize it's potential the best social system is the one where each participant has the freedom to live, to own and be in absolute control over their body and their property, meaning no involuntary participation or taxation.

And that doesn't go against the principles of democracy given the proper supports such as those constitutions and charters of rights and freedoms I mentioned.  

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