Politics, statism, anarchism, racism; split from: Wall Observer thread

[lyth0s]

Allow some regulation, especially of businesses that store/hold bitcoin is good for the community as a whole. We don't want another Gox or inputs.io tragedy. As far as consumers go regulation will be light, and if it isn't well there is a reason why bitcoin is psuedoanonymous

It's my belief that centralized regulations nurture apathy and a lack of personal accountability. To suggest that the free market wouldn't fill a void for "quality-proofing" an industry is misguided to me. Lots of people learned a valuable lesson from MtGox. Likely 90%+ of those people (including myself) won't make the same mistake again. That's progress, and it's positive. The more people learn through experience and adapt, the better. Coddling is negative.

P.S. Panopto is a POS.

So how many more coins need to be stolen before it's no longer a problem? What if coinbase were to disappear? Bitstamp? OKCoin? Houbi? Bitfinix? Are you cool with those companies having no oversight and all those people having their coins and fiat disappear overnight? I'm personally not. I believe in consumer protection.

Let the consumers be free to spend/transfer bitcoins whenever and whereever they want. But if companies are doing business on the consumers behalf, they should at least be held accountable to some standards.

Could you imagine if we followed your "Free market" corrections? Would you want to go to a doctor that doesn't have a license that is overseen by a board that makes sure he/she is qualified to treat you? Or would you be okay with dying knowing that eventually the free market will get rid of that doctor....and either another unfit doctor will take his place (and will be replaced once negilance occurs  by the free market) or maybe you will get a good doctor to take their place? Or maybe it doesn't matter since you'd be dead anyways right?

[njcarlos]

So how many more coins need to be stolen before it's no longer a problem? What if coinbase were to disappear? Bitstamp? OKCoin? Houbi? Bitfinix? Are you cool with those companies having no oversight and all those people having their coins and fiat disappear overnight? I'm personally not. I believe in consumer protection.

To each his own. I get it though, the argument is always protection. Fact is we have laws already, and they're sufficient. The people running those companies face a lot of criminal and civil liability. If they aren't being transparent enough, move somewhere else or get out and wait until something else comes up that fits your needs. If they steal your money, they've violated the law and they should face those lawful ramifications.

But if companies are doing business on the consumers behalf, they should at least be held accountable to some standards.

They are... we already have laws that protect against theft, fraud, and more no?

Could you imagine if we followed your "Free market" corrections? Would you want to go to a doctor that doesn't have a license that is overseen by a board that makes sure he/she is qualified to treat you?

The assumption here is that a board wouldn't be created in a free market. Why?

Or would you be okay with dying knowing that eventually the free market will get rid of that doctor....and either another unfit doctor will take his place (and will be replaced once negilance occurs  by the free market) or maybe you will get a good doctor to take their place? Or maybe it doesn't matter since you'd be dead anyways right?

Lots of shitty doctors get by your so called "boards" (a lot of which I'd guess are market-driven and not governmental) just like lots of shitty drugs and food/beverage get passed the "FDA." Your assumptions are that "centralized authority is benevolent and more intelligent than the people who vote those people into authority." I can't subscribe to that assumption because it's patently false. It's surely comforting for people that are lazy and would prefer to defer due diligence. I'm different I guess.

[NotLambchop]

.@njcarlos:

If Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments, could be used as a representative unregulated business:

Each and every security on offer there is trading substantially bellow the initial offering price--as in pennies on the dollar.  Including Havelock's own stock.
And those are the winners.  The ones that din't simply run off, like NeoBee.
A bit off-topic, but sorta relevant,

[njcarlos]

.@njcarlos:

If Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments, could be used as a representative unregulated business:

Each and every security on offer there is trading substantially bellow the initial offering price--as in pennies on the dollar.  Including Havelock's own stock.
And those are the winners.  The ones that din't simply run off, like NeoBee.
A bit off-topic, but sorta relevant,

To be frank, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[NotLambchop]

.@njcarlos:

If Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments, could be used as a representative unregulated business:

Each and every security on offer there is trading substantially bellow the initial offering price--as in pennies on the dollar.  Including Havelock's own stock.
And those are the winners.  The ones that din't simply run off, like NeoBee.
A bit off-topic, but sorta relevant,

To be frank, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm talking about Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments (https://www.havelockinvestments.com), and the Bitcoin companies represented there.
One of which was NeoBee (http://www.neo-bee.com/en/), the Cyprus-based Bitcoin bank that ran away with everyone's bits (http://www.coindesk.com/cyprus-issues-arrest-warrant-neo-bee-ceo-danny-brewster/)

For a believer in unregulated free market, you sure don't bother with particulars
No matter how attractive the idealized hypotheticals may be, IRL the shit's just fail and AIDS.

[Biodom]

.@njcarlos:

If Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments, could be used as a representative unregulated business:

Each and every security on offer there is trading substantially bellow the initial offering price--as in pennies on the dollar.  Including Havelock's own stock.
And those are the winners.  The ones that din't simply run off, like NeoBee.
A bit off-topic, but sorta relevant,

To be frank, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm talking about Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments (https://www.havelockinvestments.com), and the Bitcoin companies represented there.
One of which was NeoBee (http://www.neo-bee.com/en/), the Cyprus-based Bitcoin bank that ran away with everyone's bits (http://www.coindesk.com/cyprus-issues-arrest-warrant-neo-bee-ceo-danny-brewster/)

For a believer in unregulated free market, you sure don't bother with particulars
No matter how attractive the idealized hypotheticals may be, IRL the shit's just fail and AIDS.

and Lehman bust how many people's money? LOL
what exactly is this grudge match against bitcoin that you are regularly involved in?
If you don't like bitcoin-don't invest or use it.
I have much more fiat than BTC, incidentally, and don't see any problem with that.

[marcelus]

One of which was NeoBee (http://www.neo-bee.com/en/), the Cyprus-based Bitcoin bank that ran away with everyone's bits (http://www.coindesk.com/cyprus-issues-arrest-warrant-neo-bee-ceo-danny-brewster/)

For a believer in unregulated free market, you sure don't bother with particulars
No matter how attractive the idealized hypotheticals may be, IRL the shit's just fail and AIDS.

NeoBee is subject to the same laws all other companies are. What's your point?

[njcarlos]

I'm talking about Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments (https://www.havelockinvestments.com), and the Bitcoin companies represented there.
One of which was NeoBee (http://www.neo-bee.com/en/), the Cyprus-based Bitcoin bank that ran away with everyone's bits (http://www.coindesk.com/cyprus-issues-arrest-warrant-neo-bee-ceo-danny-brewster/)

For a believer in unregulated free market, you sure don't bother with particulars
No matter how attractive the idealized hypotheticals may be, IRL the shit's just fail and AIDS.

So because I'm not actively looking for an investment firm or I don't follow all the developments in the BTC ecosystem, I'm wrong about free market fundamentals? How'd you make that leap of logic? If you're surprised that idiots con idiots out of money, I'm not sure what to tell you. If you're surprised people run businesses poorly, I'm also not sure what to tell you. However if your solution is to have some sort of circle-jerk safety net where everyone bails out everyone for making stupid choices in life, I'd rather not live in your society or advocate for a society that is more self-reliant. The fact is that early adopters take the most risk, no matter the industry, product, asset, etc. Bitcoin might crash to $0 tomorrow, who should be to blame? The earlier adopters who figured they'd cash out? Who is vetting them?

[NotLambchop]

.@njcarlos:

If Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments, could be used as a representative unregulated business:

Each and every security on offer there is trading substantially bellow the initial offering price--as in pennies on the dollar.  Including Havelock's own stock.
And those are the winners.  The ones that din't simply run off, like NeoBee.
A bit off-topic, but sorta relevant,

To be frank, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm talking about Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments (https://www.havelockinvestments.com), and the Bitcoin companies represented there.
One of which was NeoBee (http://www.neo-bee.com/en/), the Cyprus-based Bitcoin bank that ran away with everyone's bits (http://www.coindesk.com/cyprus-issues-arrest-warrant-neo-bee-ceo-danny-brewster/)

For a believer in unregulated free market, you sure don't bother with particulars
No matter how attractive the idealized hypotheticals may be, IRL the shit's just fail and AIDS.

and Lehman bust how many people's money? LOL

The correct analogy would be if every security in the fiat world tanked or simply ran away, and every bank in the world simply shut its doors with post-it notes saying "OKTHXBAI!"

Not just some, EVERY.  Get it?

[njcarlos]

You're just ignoring all contract and private property law which is and should be the essence and limit of "regulation." Those in charge of administering the regulations are as corruptible as those to which it is administered. You suggest that what I'm saying is some idealized world, but no more than yours.

[Adrian-x]

.@njcarlos:

If Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments, could be used as a representative unregulated business:

Each and every security on offer there is trading substantially bellow the initial offering price--as in pennies on the dollar.  Including Havelock's own stock.
And those are the winners.  The ones that din't simply run off, like NeoBee.
A bit off-topic, but sorta relevant,

To be frank, I have no idea what you're talking about.

anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Austrian economics would realize you dont invest or loan money (Bitcoin) in a deflationary (Hyper deflationary) economy currency. It is considered stupid if you know someone is going to have to pay back 1,000% in value due to deflation, and you trust he won't default. regulation cant solve what should otherwise be common sense.

investing during inflationary times is also a prudent strategy, but forcing monetary inflation with regulation to encourage investment cant solve what should otherwise be a market economy problem.  

Havelock is full of cheep lessons not lack of regulation.

[NotLambchop]

I'm talking about Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments (https://www.havelockinvestments.com), and the Bitcoin companies represented there.
One of which was NeoBee (http://www.neo-bee.com/en/), the Cyprus-based Bitcoin bank that ran away with everyone's bits (http://www.coindesk.com/cyprus-issues-arrest-warrant-neo-bee-ceo-danny-brewster/)

For a believer in unregulated free market, you sure don't bother with particulars
No matter how attractive the idealized hypotheticals may be, IRL the shit's just fail and AIDS.

So because I'm not actively looking for an investment firm or I don't follow all the developments in the BTC ecosystem, I'm wrong about free market fundamentals? How'd you make that leap of logic?

It's not a leap of logic.  The majority of the world relies on regulations and governments.  You propose to break with that convention, so the burden of proof lies on you--you're the one who is making the extraordinary claim.
But I'm not asking for proof--I'm willing to settle for a show.  Unlike you, I am familiar with unregulated business--both the dysfunctional idiocy of Bitcoinland, and it's more competent IRL counterpart.  I have offered you Bitcoin's creme de la creme--Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange and Bitcoin's first Bank.  Along with every other business on that esteemed exchange.
Feel free to counter this with examples of non-drug related success stories.

[Biodom]

.@njcarlos:

If Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments, could be used as a representative unregulated business:

Each and every security on offer there is trading substantially bellow the initial offering price--as in pennies on the dollar.  Including Havelock's own stock.
And those are the winners.  The ones that din't simply run off, like NeoBee.
A bit off-topic, but sorta relevant,

To be frank, I have no idea what you're talking about.

anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Austrian economics would realize you dont invest or loan money (Bitcoin) in a deflationary (Hyper deflationary) economy currency. It is considered stupid if you know someone is going to have to pay back 1,000% in value due to deflation, and you trust he won't default. regulation cant solve what should otherwise be common sense.

investing during inflationary times is also a prudent strategy, but forcing monetary inflation with regulation to encourage investment cant solve what should otherwise be a market economy problem.  

Havelock is full of cheep lessons not lack of regulation.

interestingly, some people do loan out bitcoin through lending companies such as btcjam.com
Perhaps, it is OK to loan to miners, for example.
If you cannot make loans with bitcoin, it would be difficult to imagine bitcoin constituting a serious fraction of the overall economy.

[Richy_T]

Allow some regulation, especially of businesses that store/hold bitcoin is good for the community as a whole. We don't want another Gox or inputs.io tragedy.

Yes, Enron and Worldcom tragedies for me, please. Maybe with a little default swaps tragedy on the side.

[Richy_T]

I believe in consumer protection.

Go play with some fiat. Bitcoin is for adults, not children.

Would you want to go to a doctor that doesn't have a license that is overseen by a board that makes sure he/she is qualified to treat you? Or would you be okay with dying knowing that eventually the free market will get rid of that doctor....and either another unfit doctor will take his place (and will be replaced once negilance occurs  by the free market) or maybe you will get a good doctor to take their place? Or maybe it doesn't matter since you'd be dead anyways right?

So glad Harold Shipman turned out to be a fraud and not a fully licensed doctor. I was worried for a bit there.

[NotLambchop]

.@njcarlos:

If Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange, Havelock Investments, could be used as a representative unregulated business:

Each and every security on offer there is trading substantially bellow the initial offering price--as in pennies on the dollar.  Including Havelock's own stock.
And those are the winners.  The ones that din't simply run off, like NeoBee.
A bit off-topic, but sorta relevant,

To be frank, I have no idea what you're talking about.

anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Austrian economics would realize you dont invest or loan money (Bitcoin) in a deflationary (Hyper deflationary) economy currency. ...

Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Bitcoin would realize that Bitcoin is not a deflationary, but an inflationary economy currency.  Bitcoin's money supply is currently inflating at 10% a year.
Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Austrian economics would realize that it has been kicked to the curb by modern economics.  Some parts of it were incorporated, others simply left out to rot--so that passing children could point their fingers and laugh.

[njcarlos]

It's not a leap of logic.  The majority of the world relies on regulations and governments.  You propose to break with that convention, so the burden of proof lies on you--you're the one who is making the extraordinary claim.
But I'm not asking for proof--I'm willing to settle for a show.  Unlike you, I am familiar with unregulated business--both the dysfunctional idiocy of Bitcoinland, and it's more competent IRL counterpart.  I have offered you Bitcoin's creme de la creme--Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange and Bitcoin's first Bank.  Along with every other business on that esteemed exchange.
Feel free to counter this with examples of non-drug related success stories.

Have you seen the state of the world lately? More regulations should fix what the regulations haven't fixed yet, though, I guess? Or maybe it's the proliferation of unlawful legal systems. All those upstanding regulators make such an effort to punish thieves and crooks, don't they?

I have a life outside of Bitcoin so I don't follow the industry, but I understand the technology and I've seen the positive energy going into positive projects. I don't focus on the failures and cheaters, they will exist with or without regulations. But I fail to see how the burden is on me to preserve what is natural. Centralized regulation/regulatory authority doesn't just exist, so I'm not arguing for its removal. You on the other hand are arguing for its creation and legitimacy. The burden rests on you to justify everything, not the other way around.

Bitcoin is unregulated business. Right now. It's doing just fine, and it will continue to do just fine without regulations if it were permitted to do so.

[Richy_T]

But I'm not asking for proof--I'm willing to settle for a show.

Many of us are asking for the show. All we get are weenies crying for regulation. It's like they're scared that it might turn out that the regulation emperor has no clothes so they can't permit something to remain unregulated. Leave Bitcoin alone and when it crashes to nothing, you can point and sing "I told you so". Suits me fine.

[NotLambchop]

It's not a leap of logic.  The majority of the world relies on regulations and governments.  You propose to break with that convention, so the burden of proof lies on you--you're the one who is making the extraordinary claim.
But I'm not asking for proof--I'm willing to settle for a show.  Unlike you, I am familiar with unregulated business--both the dysfunctional idiocy of Bitcoinland, and it's more competent IRL counterpart.  I have offered you Bitcoin's creme de la creme--Bitcoin's biggest securities exchange and Bitcoin's first Bank.  Along with every other business on that esteemed exchange.
Feel free to counter this with examples of non-drug related success stories.

Have you seen the state of the world lately? More regulations should fix what the regulations haven't fixed yet, though, I guess? Or maybe it's the proliferation of unlawful legal systems. All those upstanding regulators make such an effort to punish thieves and crooks, don't they?

I have a life outside of Bitcoin so I don't follow the industry, but I understand the technology and I've seen the positive energy going into positive projects. I don't focus on the failures and cheaters, they will exist with or without regulations. But I fail how the burden is on me to preserve what is natural. Regulation doesn't just exist, so I'm not arguing for it's removal. You on the other hand are arguing for it's creation and legitimacy. The burden rests on you to justify everything, not the other way around.

Bitcoin is unregulated business. Right now. It's doing just fine, and it will continue to do just fine without regulations if it were permitted to do so.

Your logic, in a nutshell:
We have cops, but we still have crooks.  Therefore, if we didn't have cops, we wouldn't have crooks.  Shit will take care of itself because mises.org.  Because positive energy going into positive projects.
Because don't give me concrete examples of fail in Bitcoinland 'coz who's got time for that?  I gots life outsid of Bitcoin

What have I missed?

[njcarlos]

Your logic, in a nutshell:
We have cops, but we still have crooks.  Therefore, if we didn't have cops, we wouldn't have crooks.  Shit will take care of itself because mises.org.  Because positive energy going into positive projects.
Because don't give me concrete examples of fail in Bitcoinland 'coz who's got time for that?  I gots life outsid of Bitcoin

What have I missed?

No, we have cops but we still have crooks. If we didn't have cops, we would still have crooks. Police departments are, on occasion, more crooked than the communities they police. If municipalities didn't monopolize policing authority and allowed for community-organized and competing policing authorities, the market would do a better job than the centralized governmental monopoly. See how I'm not for anarchy but for anti-authoritarianism? Pretty simple, not rocket science. You're likely the type to think citizens are smart enough to elect good government leaders but not smart enough to mind their community and person. That's definitely more logical. And if you need me to list the positive businesses in "Bitcoinland," you're just being disagreeable You know perfectly well that the majority of bitcoin business is successful.