Are Bitcoiners Neoliberals?

[bitsmichel]

Another way to look at it is a dramatic expansion of the black market (System D), and the increase in economic freedom that comes along with it.

Where do you come up with the claim that the black market is expanding dramatically?  That sounds like the people who keep claiming Bitcoin is expanding "exponentially."

Bitcoin is only a tiny fraction of the black market. The black market is considered a subset of the informal economy, of which 1.8 billion people worldwide are employed. Market revenue is estimated to be 1829 billion $.  The bitcoin market cap has not reached such sizes.

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[DumbFruit]

Another way to look at it is a dramatic expansion of the black market (System D), and the increase in economic freedom that comes along with it.

Where do you come up with the claim that the black market is expanding dramatically?  That sounds like the people who keep claiming Bitcoin is expanding "exponentially."

Bitcoin is only a tiny fraction of the black market. The black market is considered a subset of the informal economy, of which 1.8 billion people worldwide are employed. Market revenue is estimated to be 1829 billion $.  The bitcoin market cap has not reached such sizes.

That's true. However, if Bitcoin can be an anonymous, decentralized, cheap to use medium of exchange then black markets will naturally gravitate towards it.

Right now it's an unfinished unproven technology, so it's anyone's guess what it's growth rate will be.

The "informal economy" and black market are pretty thoroughly interwoven to the point that I think it's pretty hard to find an economic activity that is untaxed and unregulated that is also not technically illegal. After all, in the United States you're supposed to write down all of your economic activity even if it isn't taxed.

[HELP.org]

Another way to look at it is a dramatic expansion of the black market (System D), and the increase in economic freedom that comes along with it.

Where do you come up with the claim that the black market is expanding dramatically?  That sounds like the people who keep claiming Bitcoin is expanding "exponentially."

Bitcoin is only a tiny fraction of the black market. The black market is considered a subset of the informal economy, of which 1.8 billion people worldwide are employed. Market revenue is estimated to be 1829 billion $.  The bitcoin market cap has not reached such sizes.

The claim was that is increasing dramatically.  That means it was a certain value before and now it has "increased dramatically."  Where does that come from?

[HELP.org]

Another way to look at it is a dramatic expansion of the black market (System D), and the increase in economic freedom that comes along with it.

Where do you come up with the claim that the black market is expanding dramatically?  That sounds like the people who keep claiming Bitcoin is expanding "exponentially."

Bitcoin is only a tiny fraction of the black market. The black market is considered a subset of the informal economy, of which 1.8 billion people worldwide are employed. Market revenue is estimated to be 1829 billion $.  The bitcoin market cap has not reached such sizes.

That's true. However, if Bitcoin can be an anonymous, decentralized, cheap to use medium of exchange then black markets will naturally gravitate towards it.

Right now it's an unfinished unproven technology, so it's anyone's guess what it's growth rate will be.

The "informal economy" and black market are pretty thoroughly interwoven to the point that I think it's pretty hard to find an economic activity that is untaxed and unregulated that is also not technically illegal. After all, in the United States you're supposed to write down all of your economic activity even if it isn't taxed.

the claim was that the black market is "increasing dramatically."  Another hyperbolic claim.

The claim is by the Bitcoins Not Bombs people in a panel hosted by Stephanie Murphy that Bitcoin is currently increasing exponentially.  If you look at things like number of transactions. merchant adoption, etc. you can see mostly linear growth.  They are promoting their agenda and they think the success of Bitcoin is going to prove their ideas to the rest of the world.

[DumbFruit]

the claim was that the black market is "increasing dramatically."  Another hyperbolic claim.

I was thinking of the potential of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency, not it's current state. Sorry for the poor choice of words.

[HELP.org]

A few references:

https://blog.caseykuhlman.com/entries/2014/bitcoin-somaliland.html

http://prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/19/interview-on-lets-talk-bitcoin-no-137-the-eye-of-the-beholder/

[El Emperador]

I think one of the strenghts of Bitcoin is that users are  ideologically various.

[RonPaulBTC]

I think one of the strenghts of Bitcoin is that users are  ideologically various.

I've never meet a Bitcoiner in real life that was perfectly okay with paying taxes.

[katlogic]

If Bitcoin can't stand by it's own technical merits then no amount of excellent cheerleading is going to make any difference.

This is spot on.

Technical and economical.

Allow me to explain in generalizations:

Would you rather get a 5Ƀ discount, or avoid a 5Ƀ surcharge?

Using bitcoin (as an actual currency, not as an anonymous proxy token for USD) means merchants will keep asking this question. And it will be equally uncomfortable for consumers.

Secondly, most people are not actually speculators. While holding bitcoin is indeed zero-sum gamble in the long term, most will incline to avoid the potential 5Ƀ loss than hope for the potential 5Ƀ profit. Irrational loss aversion cognitive bias. Opposite of gamblers fallacy.

This results in catch-22 situation: for price to stabilize, the adoption must be massive, so no bagholders can actually move the market anymore. but for that to happen, the price would have to be stable for a long time...

The only way to escape the death spiral I see is bag holders ganging up and coordinate to "act as a central bank" to ensure long-term sustainability. Unfortunately rational players (and unregulated markets in general) tend to not follow the game-theoretic golden rules where cooperation (even coerced!) brings much better results than individual competition.

Remember Nash saying: If we all go for the blonde...

Coercive action with better result for everyone might be cock-blocking the uncooperative agent. I'm sure many can relate to the real life....

[red-jet]

ok, few tins the night, but I am keen on all this neo-liberal/ anarcho capitalism debate.

I want to ask a question only those that have been in the situation can answer - Have you ever suffered ABH or GBH with intent - and wished for a smaller state?

Corse some thug life character will say hell yea - get revenge after 4 months recovery.

But as a 19yr 150pound 5'9 guy in a new city, so close to lights out save for the fantastic work of the paramedics - you shrink that? Cost me those vital 15 min?

If you listen to people like Free State Radio or Roger Ver they would explain that the people that helped you were really the murderers and the violent ones.  http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k22av/silk_road_prevented_violence/clhcglw

Absolute Madness. I was losing buckets of blood from an unprovoked stabbing in a serious dodgy part of an English town.

The people who saved me SAVED me - saved my life. What they ask for - nothing. Free health care.

Neo-liberalists live in a bubble of their own design. 

[rugrats]

I think one of the strenghts of Bitcoin is that users are  ideologically various.

I've never meet a Bitcoiner in real life that was perfectly okay with paying taxes.

We should meet up then, because I am absolutely "perfectly okay with paying taxes".
An ineffective or a broken system is not an excuse to exist without one.
I know it's cool to scream blue murder at taxes, but in the real world, charity, noble intents and self-preservation will not hold a society together.

To those who insists that society can still function without taxes, I urge you to just consider why there are over 400,000 orphans in the United States and over 150,000,000 around the world that still depend on their respective government's foster systems to survive. Where are these altruistic individuals that we so often hear about in narratives of no-tax utopias?

isn't neo-liberals just classical liberals like our founding fathers?

fairly distant concepts.  I believe they refer to that as 'Paleoliberal'.

No, paleoliberal is just another in a long line of vague and convenient labels.
The Founding Fathers were certainly not "paleoliberals".

All the regulations have to do with interfacing Bitcoin with the legacy system that these people say they want eliminated so why should they care?

Because people should have the freedom to make whatever private arrangements they want.

I certainly don't hate Libertarians.  I used to go to meetings at CATO institute when I lived in Washington, DC.  I also work with the NJ Libertarian's party on their Open Government Project.  So I like many normal Libertarians and people who fight for open government.  The guy who runs that project files lawsuits to gain access to government records.  He doesn't go around making a bunch of hyperbolic comments and meme's or attaching himself to a technology in order to promote himself.

Self-professed libertarians of CATO (associated/influenced/converted), for the most part, are thoughtful individuals who recognize the subtleties of theories and philosophies and the exigencies of real world - at least until the Koch brothers' hostile takeover a few years ago. Self-proclaimed born again and paleo libertarians, on the other hand, live in a world that is increasingly detached from reality.


And lastly,

After having a few tweets with Erik Voorhees today, rather than going through yet another libertarian debate, I figured- let's get tactical.

The bitcoin political ideology has been identified before.  It's called Neoliberalism.

do bitcoiners call themselves Neoliberals?

No, 'Bitcoiners' is not a superorganism that can be definitively defined and classified by a single label.
The Bitcoin demographic consists of (my speculation) intelligent, opinionated and independent-minded individuals.
'Bitcoiners', believe it or not, is not similar to fungal colonies or coral reefs.

[Krona Rev]

I notice there are still people on the thread using "neoliberal" as a synonym for "anarcho-capitalist."

This makes the thread terrible for discussion but very useful for something else:

This thread provides a good list of dishonest forum members.

[turvarya]

I think one of the strenghts of Bitcoin is that users are  ideologically various.

I've never meet a Bitcoiner in real life that was perfectly okay with paying taxes.

So, there are still people out there, who don't understand, that their peer-group is not a reflection of the whole world?
If you have never met a person, that disagrees with you, than you should maybe try meeting new people.

[DumbFruit]

To those who insists that society can still function without taxes, I urge you to just consider why there are over 400,000 orphans in the United States and over 150,000,000 around the world that still depend on their respective government's foster systems to survive. Where are these altruistic individuals that we so often hear about in narratives of no-tax utopias?

So to be clear; 51% of people are altruistic enough to provide badly for 400,000 orphans, but those same 51% that voted for the bad support those children are getting today, would not exist absent the government?

I would suggest that maybe most people don't go out of their way to help people because they expect the government to take care of it. That's pretty reasonable considering the United States Government spent $3,450,000,000,000 in 2013, since that's about twice as much money as you would need to give each of those orphans $50,000 every year for 90 years (in a one year budget, I remind you.).

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2015/assets/tables.pdf

[Krona Rev]

I think one of the strenghts of Bitcoin is that users are  ideologically various.

I've never meet a Bitcoiner in real life that was perfectly okay with paying taxes.

We should meet up then, because I am absolutely "perfectly okay with paying taxes".

We can agree on this. I'm absolutely perfectly okay with you paying taxes. Pay all the taxes you want.

[HELP.org]

I think one of the strenghts of Bitcoin is that users are  ideologically various.

I've never meet a Bitcoiner in real life that was perfectly okay with paying taxes.

We should meet up then, because I am absolutely "perfectly okay with paying taxes".

We can agree on this. I'm absolutely perfectly okay with you paying taxes. Pay all the taxes you want.

For most people it is not about paying taxes or not paying taxes, it is a matter of paying too much because much of the money is wasted.

As for taxes being too high the main problem with government is the incentives.  There is no incentive to end things that are no longer needed.  A government program can be started at the drop of a hat but it can be next to impossible to end a program when it is no longer beneficial.  That asymmetry is the problem.

[Peegasus]

Explain what Neoliberals are.

[rugrats]

To those who insists that society can still function without taxes, I urge you to just consider why there are over 400,000 orphans in the United States and over 150,000,000 around the world that still depend on their respective government's foster systems to survive. Where are these altruistic individuals that we so often hear about in narratives of no-tax utopias?

So to be clear; 51% of people are altruistic enough to provide badly for 400,000 orphans, but those same 51% that voted for the bad support those children are getting today, would not exist absent the government?

I would suggest that maybe most people don't go out of their way to help people because they expect the government to take care of it. That's pretty reasonable considering the United States Government spent $3,450,000,000,000 in 2013, since that's about twice as much money as you would need to give each of those orphans $50,000 every year for 90 years (in a one year budget, I remind you.).

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2015/assets/tables.pdf

As far as straw man arguments go, yours must be the weirdest I've encountered in a long while. Give it another try.

Also, your suggestion implies that altruism and altruistic people are holding back because someone else, i.e., the government, is doing it. That's not altruism. Altruism exists regardless of any circumstances. Suggesting that altruism will suddenly emerge in the absence of a government is, forgive my language, breathtakingly delusional.

For the record, the welfare spending for the U.S. in 2014 will amount to $264.4 billion. That includes unemployment assistance, food programs, foster systems and many others. Walmart and Exxonmobil generate almost twice as much in revenue annually, and these two companies actually enjoy preferential tax rebates. As a percentage of GDP, the figure has been on a downward spiral for the past three decades.

I think one of the strenghts of Bitcoin is that users are  ideologically various.

I've never meet a Bitcoiner in real life that was perfectly okay with paying taxes.

We should meet up then, because I am absolutely "perfectly okay with paying taxes".

We can agree on this. I'm absolutely perfectly okay with you paying taxes. Pay all the taxes you want.

Let's also agree that I am not interested to pander to your snide, childish remarks.

[rugrats]

I think one of the strenghts of Bitcoin is that users are  ideologically various.

I've never meet a Bitcoiner in real life that was perfectly okay with paying taxes.

We should meet up then, because I am absolutely "perfectly okay with paying taxes".

We can agree on this. I'm absolutely perfectly okay with you paying taxes. Pay all the taxes you want.

For most people it is not about paying taxes or not paying taxes, it is a matter of paying too much because much of the money is wasted.

As for taxes being too high the main problem with government is the incentives.  There is no incentive to end things that are no longer needed.  A government program can be started at the drop of a hat but it can be next to impossible to end a program when it is no longer beneficial.  That asymmetry is the problem.

Exactly. The key is in finding an equilibrium and enhancing efficiency.

[Krona Rev]

Explain what Neoliberals are.

Good luck. I read the wikipedia page and then part of a book by David Harvey. You can find info in my responses on the thread, but I warn you: no one cares. They just pretend "neoliberal" means something and use it to refer to people and ideas they-don't-like without saying who those people are or what the ideas are.

There's been an outstanding question from two of us on the thread from the beginning:

Name one person who self-identifies as a neoliberal.

No one can. No one will. No one cares.